454 Casull or 444 Marlin

[littledog]

 
I am waiting for the new 357 mag to get back from H&R.  I am looking at the 2^nd frame trying to decide between the 444 marlin and 45lc reamed to 454 Casull. I already reload for the 44 mag and have lots of different bullets that will work in 444. Looking at reloading charts for the 454 Casull in a rifle round it may have slight advantage in ballistics. More bullet selection in 444 I would like to hear from members that have or used these calibers and which they would pick. Thank you
 

[gendoc]

as long as itsa sb2 receiver, either will do if it fits or can be fitted......
I have experimented with both and found the 445 supermag to be more worthy in my style of hunting.
that's me and prolly no-one will agree
 
I have several handguns in casull and marlin lg's in 444. they are sweet and can't be substituted, again that's me.............

[gcrank1]

Kinda depends on how many different calibers you really want to become involved with. If those 44 cal. bullets are jacketed they will work in the 44Mag or 444, but if cast you may have some issues as the throats and/or barrel dimensions are not exactly the same. I used to use my 44Mag die to 'neck size' the 444 I once had and seater die too; it wont decap, that was a separate operation. With hot loads you might find you do need to FL size so a 444dieset may ultimately needed, but to get going you might get by with what you have.
Then the next question might be,'what about the 45-70?' Mild to wild, user friendly, a ton of history and data, etc.
That is, if you just want to avoid the lesser cartridges and go for the gusto straight away.

[geezerbiker]

Then the next question might be,'what about the 45-70?' Mild to wild, user friendly, a ton of history and data, etc.
That is, if you just want to avoid the lesser cartridges and go for the gusto straight away.

Plus 1 to that.  After getting a .45-70, I've lost interest in getting 3 or 4 other calibers I thought I wanted...

Tony

[bikerbeans]

IMO, there isn't a comparison between these two cartridges.  The 444M is a rifle cartridge and the 454Cas is a pistol cartridge that has found its way into some leverguns and single shot carbine/rifles.  The 444M has about 33% more case capacity than the 454Cas, 69 versus 47 grains of H2O. 
 
BB

[Ol BW]

BB would you call the 460 an 500 S&W rifle cartridges that made their way into a pistol??  ;D

BW

[littledog]

 I have looked at the 45 70 heaver bullets mean more recoil. I shoot 25.3 grains of 2400 with 200 grain Hornady xtp in 14inch Contender with a 1935 FPS and 1590 FPS in my Super Red Hawk. Handgun recoil doesn’t bother me but for some reason rifle recoil is a problem for me. At 135lb wet may have something to do with it. It looks like the 45 70 has more recoil with similar loads. Thank you people here are giving me good information and a lot to think about. 

[RPRNY]

The deciding issue may be barrel availability. H&R aren't making the 45LC barrel anymore. So you're going to be looking for a second hand barrel if you want a 454. I have one and love it. Shoots everything from little pb 185 gr cast over Trail Boss to honking great 300 gr LFN GC. The Hornady 250 gr FTX will go at 2200 + I am looking into shooting 350 gr pure lead paper patched at @ 1350.

444 Marlin barrels are still available. I load 444 brass for 1/2oz .410 shotgun loads. I think it would be a great cartridge.

I would go for the 45/454 if you can find one for the versatility but if one is not forthcoming, the 444 is a very cool cartridge.

[gcrank1]

45-70:
Round Ball loads, 150ishgr.
300gr. bullets
340gr.
405gr.
500gr.
Pick a powder charge for any or all that you are 'comfortable with'. Yes, the 405's and 500's are healthy recoil IF you stoke 'em up, but shoot reduced velo you can get little girl loads. Or stoke 'em and have big, dangerous critter getters, all in one barrel.

[quickdtoo]

45-70:
Round Ball loads, 150ishgr.
300gr. bullets
340gr.
405gr.
500gr.

And 525gr, 550gr or even 720gr! 

[gcrank1]

At 135# wet I thought I should stop at 500......

[littledog]

 THANKS is hard to tell which way the deer went when I am left looking straight up after pulling trigger 
 

[YRUpunting?]

If recoil is an issue you're kidding yourself about the Casull or the 444.  You say you have the 357 Mag on the way.  Ream it to Maxi and your problem is solved.  You need to be reloading anyway.  It's easy to reload and fun to shoot.  It's my primary deer cartridge here in IN, I have two of them now.  It's a better cartridge on deer than a 30-30 and it has less recoil. 

Tons of great info on this forum.  Also check out http://357maximum.com/.  Steve has documented all the info you need.

[bikerbeans]

45-70:
Round Ball loads, 150ishgr.
300gr. bullets
340gr.
405gr.
500gr.

And 525gr, 550gr or even 720gr! 

Ya'll forgot the "collar buttons".
 
BB

[geezerbiker]

So where are y'all getting those collar button bullets?

Tony

[quickdtoo]

Western has collar buttons.

Tim

http://www.westernbullet.com/ly4gr6.html

[quickdtoo]

At 135# wet I thought I should stop at 500......

Tyler can't weight much more than that, he shoots the 45-120 just fine. 

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,146019.msg1098608301.html#msg1098608301

[RPRNY]

 It's a better cartridge on deer than a 30-30 and it has less recoil. 

Why oh why must people say such foolish things to support their particular pet? Nonsense.  Shenanigans. It does a disservice to he who makes such a claim and to the cartridge he seeks to defend.

Considering that 160 ftx bullets and 35.5 gr of Leverevolution in a lever gun will give better or equal terminal velocity than the muzzle velocity of the  357 Max, this is just a silly thing to say.

357 Max is a fine cartridge and an excellent woods deer choice. But it is not superior to the 30-30 and is its equal only in 100 yds or less conditions.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

[geezer56]

I have the Max, 454, 444, 45-70, 500 S&W, and 30-30 all covered.  There is a lot of overlap between them as far as range and useability are concerned.  I have used them all on various game critters and other reactive targets.  The 444 is the most versatile one of the lot, with the 45-70 and 30-30 in a close race for second.  Paco Kelly had a lot to say about the 444 in his writings, and my findings follow along with his.  His reload data is a bit brisk for my liking, but he is the lever gun/lever gun caliber guru.  The 444 is a heavy hitter with good distance capability, but any heavy chunk of lead is going to have somewhat of an artillery trajectory, no matter what the launch caliber is.  All these calibers are useful, all have their rabid fans, it's just up to you to decide what recoil level, component cost, and cool factor, (or lack thereof) you are willing to accomodate.  I know if I could only have one of those, it would be the 444.

[petemi]

as long as itsa sb2 receiver, either will do if it fits or can be fitted......
I have experimented with both and found the 445 supermag to be more worthy in my style of hunting.
that's me and prolly no-one will agree
 
I have several handguns in casull and marlin lg's in 444. they are sweet and can't be substituted, again that's me.............

I agree with John.  I had a .500 and got rid of it because I liked my .445 better.  It and the .45-70 do everything I need.  My BC carbine is staying .45 Colt and I have no need for a .444.  My second .45-70 is in the works.  It'll be a 16.5 shorty; scoped and set up for a lighter, faster bullet.

Pete

[8uck5nort]

The OP stated he reloaded for 44 mag so my vote is a readily available 44 mag barrel on a SB2 frame reamed to 445 SM. I am a believer since reaming one of my 44 mags up to 445 SM. Just a tad more recoil than a 357 max, but far less recoil than the punishing 500 SW and good selection of 429 or 430 bullets from 180 gr to 300 gr range. I am seeing 240 gr bullets approach 2250 fps to the 265 gr around 2050 fps. I have not tested lighter or heavier yet, got some coming though. The Hornady FTX bullets appear to be very accurate and flatter shooting so far. With the right bullet/powder combo it is a legit probably up to elk sized thin skinned game cartridge in the 200 yrd range and if loaded aggressively, but safely, nips on the heels of a 444 marlin performance in the 100 yard and under range, and probably brutal on varmints like hogs. Good luck and always have fun with it.

[geezerbiker]

Western has collar buttons.

http://www.westernbullet.com/ly4gr6.html

I'll have to try some of those but I'd prefer to cast my own.  Do you know of any available moulds for that bullet?

Tony

[quickdtoo]

The Lyman 457130 is out of production, NEI makes one tho.

Tim

http://www.neihandtools.com/index.html

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/458-150-pb.jpg

[dpe.ahoy]

Not sure why the conversation ALWAYS goes to the 45-70 when someone asks about the 444 .  I own rifles in both calibers, four 444's and two 45-70's, and shoot my 444's 50-75 rounds to one round of 45-70.  The bullets for the 444 are lighter than the ones for the 45-70 when looking at similar sec. density, i.e. SD for the 265 gr. 444 bullet is 0.205 and the SD for the 45-70 300 gr bullet is 0.204.  Obviously, the same relationship is maintained going up in weight.  The 444 uses less powder to send bullets of similar SD down range.  So, part of the equation in recoil is mass, or bullet weight, another is the weight of the powder charge.  Reduce either or both of those factors and recoil is reduced as well if all other factors are the same.  Round ball?, they are offered in the size needed for the 44 or 444 as well.  Heavy weight?, bullets over 400gr are easy to find as well.  BC for the smaller caliber in like SD's also normally better for less drop.  I would feel comfortable facing anything on the North American continent with the proper bullet in one of my 444's, same as I would with a 45-70 with proper bullets.  I also own two rifles in the 454 chambering, light and powerful, they are Rossi levers and weigh just under and just over 6 lb with 16" and 20" barrels.  Fast follow up shots and easy to pack along and powerful.  They have recoil as well, being loaded to higher pressure normally, the recoil is faster, like a jab instead of a push given with lower pressure rounds.  You never really stated what your use for the new barrel would be. 
In my opinion, you can't go wrong with either choice you listed, both can be handloaded up or down, just like the 45-70.  Having components for the 44 cal could be a plus, if you use jacketed, cast in the 44 cal. rifle is a larger diameter than for the handgun barrels.  45-70 would need .458 or larger, 454 C would need yet a different diameter, all something to consider as well.  Good luck with your pick, which ever it is.  DP

[petemi]

Sorry Don, you can't convince me.  My .445 shoots .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .44 Russian and .445 Super Magnum.  A .444 can't do that, and It'll be hard pressed to equal my .45-70.  I like it where I am....445SM and .45-70.  If I wanna play with lighter stuff, the .45 Colt, Maxis and their tribe of lighter loads are there to enjoy.  I can't conceive of a a need for anything larger than a 405 out of a .45-70 here in Michigan.  The most important thing to me is I can put them where I want them at 300 yards.  I'm building another 16.5 inch 45-70 for lighter loads and am eager to see what that will do. 

Don, my first Handi was my .45-70.....I've got to be loyal to it.

Pete

[gcrank1]

I suppose the reason that the conversation goes that way is because the 45-70 will do everything the 444 will do and more. I admit that the 'more' is probably overkill, but with a comparable weight/shape bullet in the 45-70 vs the 444 the 45-70 at any matching velo. will have marginally more effectiveness due to the frontal diameter. At cast bullet velo's either will be dandy and do similar work. If you want/need top end loads there is no comparison of the 444 to 45-70, on paper or the real world.
Even that pretender 445SM is on the heels of the 444 as far as I can tell so it should be considered as a very viable rechamber of the available 44Mag barrels. It just seems like handling a mostly gone cigar 'cause its so stubby compared to the others. I know I would load cast in a 444 and be pretty happy, just like I do most of the time in the 45-70. A different powder in the 445SM would get the same performance in the smaller package and I would still be pretty happy.
Logic would dictate that we state our purpose and pick the best (however you define that) option for the job.........oh yeah, like its real logical here.......
Rabbit Trails 'r Us.......whether ya ask specifically or not we'll take ya on a chase.

[littledog]

 I appreciate all the information given here.  I plan on hunting does in the Iowa late doe season want to try hog hunting if I would stop buying guns I could afford to go on one.  I go to Red lodge M.T. every few years to see my brother. I have seen a few black bears and one grizzly I know a single shot in bear country is not the best choices but I have my super redhawk as back up. After reading Bear Tooth bullets 3 part article and [font=]Paco Kelly article I am going with the 444 Marlin. I can down load to high 44 mag levels[/font] or 405 grains at 1800 fps that’s a shoulder breaker levels. I think I would like a mannlicher stock with 32 ounce of weight in the stock and open sights. PS leaving for red lodge next week can’t wait.  

[dpe.ahoy]

You must be flying into Billings Logan International, unless you are driving.  I live in Billings, if you have time, give a shout.  I'm born and raised on a farm in Iowa, small world.  DP

[littledog]

 I will be driving through Billing next Saturday maybe some of those handi would like to live here in Iowa.  I can always hunt hogs next year.  

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

At 135# wet I thought I should stop at 500......

lighter folks tend to handle recoil better....   it is an inertia thing