Author Topic: Where's the proof?  (Read 4164 times)

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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Where's the proof?
« on: June 01, 2013, 12:42:26 PM »
I don't own a .45acp anymore.  I've had many, Colts, Springfield, Kimbers and Smiths. 
 
I've read and researched all the stuff that says the .45 is the best handgun for stopping a human being. 
 
Where is the proof of that?  The fact that it was a military weapon for so long does not prove it.  Sure, it stopped a lot of Germans and Japanese.  But that's not proof.  It is a simple statement that the .45 was issued and used.  That doesn't mean it was the "best." 
 
I'm not making an argument in favor of another caliber; just reminding 45 fans that it ain't all that. 
 
I hear people speaking highly of the .380 from a short barrel and how far it penetrates when using a hardball round.  As far as a .45, they say.  But wait, the .45 is so much bigger!  So what?  Does bigger give it so much more ability?  If so, where is the proof? 
 
I once believed in the fantasy of the 45acp.  I took it deer hunting.  What a mistake.  It won't regularly stop a deer.  More often, a deer shot with a 45acp will not be recovered. 
 
Now, shoot him with a .308.  Much smaller, but much faster.  Shoot an enemy combatant one time with a .308 at 500 yards and he goes down immediately.  Shoot him up close with a .45 pistol one time and he may or may not go down. 
 
Okay, I know the issue is not pistol vs. rifle, but it proves the point that a fat caliber is not superior.  Get shot with a .357 and die within seconds.  Not sometimes, but every time.  Where is the proof that the .45 is better? 
 
The .45 vs. 9mm debate is never ending.  Why is that?  Why is it not a proven fact that the 45 is better than the nine?  Some say it is proven, some say it is not. 
 
Simply look at the age of the 45acp.  Certainly, after a hundred years, we have better rounds.  I'm not saying it's a 9mm, but I suspect that it is.  Without considering capacity of the magazine, where is the proof that a 9mm is inferior to a 45?  Where? 
 
I shall tell you where it is.  It's in your head, which tells you bigger is better. 
 
In truth, a .45 is better if you need to shoot someone who is naked and their are no barriers of any kind between you and him.  If he's got a coat on, forget it.  It's just too slow and fat to go in. 
 
Modern ballistic thinking is more than askew.  It's completely incorrect and based on nothing except "bigger is better."  In truth, velocity is everything and size is nothing. 
 
Ask yourself:  If you were suddenly struck with a long term survival situation such as a nuclear holocaust, when you came out of your hole, would you rather have a 45acp or a Smith Model 686?  Which of those two guns would see you through any hostile or hunting situation you would encounter? 
 
Okay, that's not why you carry a .45.  You carry during peace time as defense.  Fine.  But it's still only a .45acp.  It can never be a .357M.  It's highly debatable that it can even measure up to a .38+P or a 9MM.  Regardless of reloading speed and magazine capacity, the .45acp is as outdated as a .44 Walker.  It is simply not enough. 
 
 

Offline spruce

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2013, 01:29:29 PM »
Well, I'll agree the .45ACP isn't as effective as a .308, but a .308 isn't as effective as a 155MM howitzer - so what's your point??
 
If it didn't work reasonably well would it still be around after a 100+ years?
 
If caliber is unimportant maybe we should all just carry a .22LR. :)
 
I think the reason the .45 was, and is, so popular is because it "hit the sweet spot" - the perfect balance of portability, controllability, and effectiveness.  Other rounds may match or exceed it's performance in one or two categories, but not in all three.

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2013, 02:08:51 PM »
Okay, look at it like this.  A .177 caliber air rifle would make a groundhog mad enough to go into his den and complain to his wife.  A .17 caliber rifle would assure that he never spoke to his wife again. 
 
A .22 Magnum will take out a crow at 100 yards.  A .223 will take out a man at 500 yards. 
 
It's about velocity. 
 
A .44 size rock fired from a slingshot will bounce off a pop bottle.  A .44 Magnum fired from either a revolver or rifle will blow through whatever you shoot at.  Velocity. 
 
Shoot your neighbor's cat with a .38spl.  Watch him flop around until he croaks.  Shoot him with a smaller caliber, as in a 30-06, .308, or .338 Magnum and watch him explode.  Velocity. 
 
As to why the 45 1911 has stuck around for 100 years, it's because of people's since of romance.  A .45 1911 is no more effective (in fact less effective) than Wyatt Earp's black powder 45LC.  It's the classic design that keeps it popular, not it's real life effectiveness. 
 
It's plain common sense.  Fatter means slower.  Slower means less energy.  The .45acp is so fat and short, you can't get but so much powder into the case.  Stuff 3 times that much powder into a .45LC, and you have 3 times the power. 
 
Let's go back to the .338 Magnum.  Shoot another cat with it.  Although 99.9% of the energy is wasted in the ground on the far side of the cat, said cat is instantly dead.  Velocity equals shock and death. 
 
A valid argument might be made that a .45acp on a cat is also instant death.  But we're considering a naked cat.  Certainly, a .45acp is enough to stop a naked cat.  But it is vastly inferior and ineffective against anything significantly larger.
 
All 1911 sales are made to gullible buyers.  They have read so many gun magazine articles and Internet forums that they actually believe the crap set forth. 
 
Think about it.  Fat is better only if it is accompanied by velocity.  A .50 caliber military rifle will take out a truck, because that weapon achieves sufficient velocity even at extended distance.  Shoot a .45 1911 at a target 50 yards away and you can actually see the bullet in flight.  Like an arrow.  Outdated and useful only at extremely short range. 
 
Yep, many matches have been one with a 1911.  50 yard targets have been centered consistently.  But such shooting is only a measure of the shooters ability and has nothing to do with down range ability, other than punching a hole through paper. 
 
My point is, why carry or even use a heavy .45 when a light 9mm or .357 or even a .380 will serve you better at any distance? 
 
Fat and short in a gun is the same as fat and short in a human.  Nearly useless when force is needed.         

Offline fatercat

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2013, 03:05:15 PM »
mike you read to many books and your to mouthy. i am a disabled vet from 1968 to 1970. my uncle bubba was in the battle of the buldge.  the 1911 kills the hell out of people and deer .you are stupid and just posting rabble to get a responce. thats the trouble with young kids, no knowledge.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2013, 03:09:32 PM »
To test your theory, try a .223 on a grizzly, and I'll try my slow moving 45-70 at trapdoor speeds. :D
Ben
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Offline wolverine_1

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2013, 03:32:18 PM »
"To test your theory, try a .223 on a grizzly, and I'll try my slow moving 45-70 at trapdoor speeds. :D
Ben"
 
Well said Ben.  Years ago I participated in the taking of an 8.5' Brown Bear in Alaska.  My partner was using a 7mm Mag which knocked the bear over repeatedly but that's all.  I shot it with a .30-40 Krag.  When we skinned the bear, the 7mm's had blown up in the fat on the near side, inparting all their energy to the bear.  The 220 grain silver tip .30-40 bullet was just under the skin on the far side behind the front leg.  Point is it takes enough energy and enough bullet and the right kind of bullet.  The 7mm was using bullets designed for thin skinned game.  Lots of speed and energy, but wasted in the fat.  The Krag was slower but heavier and built for penetration.
Gene

Offline bulletstuffer

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2013, 03:39:15 PM »

Now we know why there are no 22 LR to be found!


Bulletstuffer

Well, I'll agree the .45ACP isn't as effective as a .308, but a .308 isn't as effective as a 155MM howitzer - so what's your point??
 
If it didn't work reasonably well would it still be around after a 100+ years?
 
If caliber is unimportant maybe we should all just carry a .22LR. :)
 
I think the reason the .45 was, and is, so popular is because it "hit the sweet spot" - the perfect balance of portability, controllability, and effectiveness.  Other rounds may match or exceed it's performance in one or two categories, but not in all three.
I am the first to work when I have to and the first to go on vacation when I can!  God Bless America!!!

Offline Savage

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2013, 01:11:58 AM »
Mike, retirement has given you waayyyyyy too much time to think. ??? Hang in there!
Savage
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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2013, 01:21:20 AM »
Well this has opened my eyes! all my 1911's will be in 308 from now on!  ::)   :-\   :o
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2013, 05:14:27 AM »
I'm funny.  However, I didn't get as much ugly feedback as I was going for.  Most of you guys are too nice. 
 
I'll try something else later to get you riled up.   

Offline Larry L

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2013, 06:08:11 AM »
Watch and learn, I guess. Here's a comparison for you on actual humans....not that these folks volunteered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA


The flic is 35 minutes long. This vid is not safe for work and is graphic. If you have
weak stomach.....

Offline FPH

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2013, 06:56:06 AM »
I'm funny.  However, I didn't get as much ugly feedback as I was going for.  Most of you guys are too nice. 
 
I'll try something else later to get you riled up.   

Another one of your attempts at amusing yourself.  However ,this irresponsible posting could cost one of our friends their lives if they took your BS to heart.  You owe the members an apology.

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2013, 07:24:30 AM »
Okay, FPH.  I apologize.  No excuse.  Didn't mean it.  Just messing around.  Stupid and irresponsible.  Very sorry.  The truth is I have .45's.  Hope to get the new 4" Ruger soon. 
 
Larry, the video was very informative.  Thanks.  It proves that no handgun is an immediate stopper. 
 
Now, with that out of the way, I can't say I might not do it again someday.  I'm unstable at best.  Who knows what I might do next.  Maybe that's why everyone here loves me.   

Offline FPH

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2013, 07:34:20 AM »
You don't put other peoples lives ( or their families lives) at risk for your own entertainment.....you may write your ramblings off as your own instability......that excuse wears thin.

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2013, 08:52:23 AM »
FPH I made an apology and you didn't accept it.  What kind of person are you?  I mean other than having a lack of common sense.  Whether my post was a joke or not, no one's family was put in danger.  No one will give up their .45 because I said it is ineffective.  Do you think someone took my post seriously enough to change the caliber of their defense gun? 
 
If they did, if anything I said prompted someone to go get rid of their .45 and go to a 9mm, are their lives more at risk?  What a very stupid stance.  I made more of an apology than was warranted.  Again I tell you that whether the post was funny or not, my or anyone else's opinion of which handgun caliber is best, will not change the outcome of any fire fight that will ever occur. 
 
I mean to say I retract the apology as far as you are concerned.  Mean and opinionated people can't be pacified.  I don't like you.  I was going to have you and your family over for dinner, but now I'm not.  I'm talking about Sara Lee cornbread and Jimmy Dean sausage and lemon jello for dessert.  But your hateful attitude has ruined that for you. 
 
No wait!  I have an idea.  You apologize to me and I'll save some jello for you.  Maybe you can use it to test the total lack of penetration of your acp.  Lemon jello looks very much like ballistic gelatin, and if you actually achieved penetration, you could see through the almost clear lemon jello and thereby take some measurements to compare with how hard you can spit.     

Offline Mikey

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2013, 09:11:07 AM »
"I'm funny.  However, I didn't get as much ugly feedback as I was going for.  Most of you guys are too nice.  I'll try something else later to get you riled up." I would appreciate it if you wouldn't bother. By the way, you forgot the Germans of WWI, the Germans, Italians and Japanese of WWII, the North Koreans of that conflict, as well as the Chinese and Russian advisors and their communist friends in Southeast Asia.  Sounds like you really haven't researched much at all but rather prefer the idea of stirring arguements and trolling, and you can do that elsewhere.

Offline spruce

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2013, 09:40:03 AM »
Does this mean I won't need the 1911 barrel I just rechambered to .300 Weatherby? :-\

Offline FPH

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2013, 11:11:49 AM »
FPH I made an apology and you didn't accept it.  What kind of person are you?  I mean other than having a lack of common sense.  Whether my post was a joke or not, no one's family was put in danger.  No one will give up their .45 because I said it is ineffective.  Do you think someone took my post seriously enough to change the caliber of their defense gun? 
 
If they did, if anything I said prompted someone to go get rid of their .45 and go to a 9mm, are their lives more at risk?  What a very stupid stance.  I made more of an apology than was warranted.  Again I tell you that whether the post was funny or not, my or anyone else's opinion of which handgun caliber is best, will not change the outcome of any fire fight that will ever occur. 
 
I mean to say I retract the apology as far as you are concerned.  Mean and opinionated people can't be pacified.  I don't like you.  I was going to have you and your family over for dinner, but now I'm not.  I'm talking about Sara Lee cornbread and Jimmy Dean sausage and lemon jello for dessert.  But your hateful attitude has ruined that for you. 
 
No wait!  I have an idea.  You apologize to me and I'll save some jello for you.  Maybe you can use it to test the total lack of penetration of your acp.  Lemon jello looks very much like ballistic gelatin, and if you actually achieved penetration, you could see through the almost clear lemon jello and thereby take some measurements to compare with how hard you can spit.     

And you said you might do it again......what kind of apololgy is that?....a worthless one.

Offline SharonAnne

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2013, 09:22:26 PM »
Thompson-LaGarde
SharonAnne
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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2013, 08:46:07 AM »
Sharon, you little sweetie, there you are!  I just knew you'd respond.
 
Hey, FPH can't make it over for dinner.  He's got something wrong with his mouth.  So, I will have an empty seat at the table.  Would you like to come?  Bring some of those little short fat cartridges if you have any extra.  We can put them in a cabinet where I keep other antiques.   

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2013, 10:11:02 AM »
I don't think I have ever read where the 45 ACP was the best handgun cart. Best for military maybe but not over all. The 357 mag with correct ammo has that claim. But still an opinion  ;)
 That said no handgun is a 100% stopper. Something like a little over 90% of people shot with handguns live where 90+ % of people shot with high power rifles die . Shotguns are somewhere in the mix. And remember the 357 mag. claim is for stops not kills.
 
 Now I don't care to be shot by any gun .
It's like the 9mm vs. the 45 ACP. the track records have changed over the years.
 
 Now after the crisis what would I want ? Does it matter really ? We tend to use what we have to the best it will work. To be honest either would work the L frame 357 or 45 ACP . And when I run dry on ammo I will pick up what ever the bad guy had.  ;)
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SharonAnne

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2013, 10:20:45 AM »
the Thompson-LaGarge (sp) tests used only hardball ammunition. It found that .45" bullets destroyed more tissue than 9mm bullets. The 45acp uses a rounded fmg and the 9mmP uses a conical bullet. The conical bullet slips through tissue much more easily than the round nose. 

Today we have the benefit of expanding bullets. As Shootall notes the .357 Remington Magnum, with specific 125gr jhp are at the top. Only those with a muzzle velocity listed at 1450fps from a 4" barrel need apply. The only auto loading round in that department is the 9x23 Winchester. Field effectiveness has yet to be determined.

The Federal 9bp 9mmP in testing media has shown zero expansion. Just because it has a nice hollow point does not mean it will expand. Many 230gr 45acp suffer the same problem.  OF course the 45jhp will not get smaller. The 9mm hopes to get larger.

There are many many jhp rounds to select from.  There are too few shootings ( contrary to major media reporting) for our pet loads to have sufficient results for evaluation.

Test your pet load in ballistic gelatin or go with FBi Uniform Crime Report statistics. 

Truth is big rounds will never get smaller. Small rounds might get bigger.
SharonAnne
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Honor the American Soldier and Sailor, the source of Our Freedom

Really, it only hurts when I breath - SharonAnne

An armed society is a polite society - Robert Heinlein

THE TREE OF LIBERTY MUST BE REFRESHED FROM TIME TO TIME WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2013, 04:55:34 AM »
Yep, I know.  Just messin' with you.  Need to get back on my meds. 

Offline reliquary

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2013, 09:25:58 AM »
MIV:  don't get back on your meds...I was looking forward to some more of your statements like ".223 lethal on humans at 500 yards" and "can see a .45acp slug in flight", " a .45 1911 being not as effective as a black-powder .45C" and "stuff 3 times as much powder in a .45C as in a .45acp". 
 
You're entertaining, to say the least.  But if you're that desperate for attention, get a puppy.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2013, 09:49:05 AM »
If the sun is behind you and you shoot at a distance that causes you to elevate your gun enough as the bullet is on its downward flight more often than not the bullet looks as if it is dropping into the target. looking thru. a scope or bios makes it a lot easier to see.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline FPH

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2013, 12:10:13 PM »
[quote   But if you're that desperate for attention, get a puppy.


Wait a second, now your advocating cruelty to animals

Offline reliquary

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2013, 01:52:32 PM »
Okay, how 'bout a pet rattlesnake?  It could defend itself...
 
MIV was talking about seeing a .45acp on its way to a 50-yard target...

Offline FPH

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2013, 03:03:32 PM »
Actually, Mike in Va. was the dumb animal I was referring to.  I am afraid a puppy might run Mike  in circles.

Offline Savage

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2013, 10:00:25 AM »
Wow! Tough crowd. Although I'm a fan of the .45, I don't take it personal when some disagree. Hard to imagine adults getting so worked up over a forum post.
Savage
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Offline FPH

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Re: Where's the proof?
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2013, 10:45:56 AM »
Inside joke.....I don't take it......or mean it.......  personally.