Author Topic: 45 70 reloading question (Read 1175 times)

littledog · « **on:** June 02, 2013, 02:52:41 PM »

How does the Handi 45 70 compare to the Ruger #1and#3 in strength. The reason I am asking I found load data using 2400 powder which is the main powder I use. Lyman 47 starts at 24 grain for trapdoor and up to 35 grains for Ruger #1 for a 300 grain JHP bullet hand loader magazine issue #32 takes it up to 47grains of 2400 for a 300 grain JHP in a Ruger #1 I won't load to the top end on any of my reloads I was just wandering. A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Does anyone here use 2400 in the 45 70.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #1 on:** June 02, 2013, 02:56:59 PM »

I would hesitate to say its as strong as a number 1, cause it is not. BUT Most people give up before the H&R action does.

Its about on par with Marlin level loadings.

IMHO 2400 is a PISTOL powder. I know people use it, but I wont. RL7 and 4198 are top preformers for heavy 45-70 loadings. 3031 is also a long time favorite powder.

CW

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** June 02, 2013, 03:02:23 PM »

The Rugers are a stronger platform, no doubt, but that's not to say that a Handi won't handle modern rifle/Ruger loads, specially when some data shows levergun data that's still in SAAMI trapdoor pressure of 28kpsi! The Handi will be just fine, but the shooter is the weaker link when you get into levergun loads and above, the recoil is just tremendous, most stay in trapdoor/lower levergun data. The 500S&W is factory chambered in the Handi, it has a bigger case head(.525" vs .505") and a much higher SAAMI MAP of 60kpsi, although top load data peaks at around 53kpsi, so 50kpsi/kcup loads(Hodgdon and Hornady) in a 45-70 aren't going to be a problem for the gun, just the fella behind it. The only 2400 load I've used is 28gr under a 350gr Hornady(45-70 Loadbook Alliant data, 27-29gr) for about 1500fps, very accurate.

Tim

twoshooter · « **Reply #3 on:** June 02, 2013, 04:02:55 PM »

I do shoot a lot of 2400, but not as maximum loads. The reason to use pistol powers are they provide cheap, accurate light to midrange loads. 47 grains is over the top. Go to RL7 or 4198 for the heavy stuff.

xhare · « **Reply #4 on:** June 03, 2013, 01:25:33 AM »

FIRST...This discussion only applies if you have a SB2 frame. One of my 45-70s is an older NEF, beautiful gun, but I bought it in the 90's before the 45-70 barrels were put on the strongest frames they made. Its not really an SB1 but not a SB2 either. Other than that Im not sure on all the details.

If you dig through reloading manuals like I do, you might be surprised at how much power you can get out of top SAAMI loads (28K). Even so, heavy Marlin loads are the highest I ever went, even in my youth. I touched off a couple of Ruger loads in a Browning 1885 I used to have...no thank you. They are ok for hunting (but not necessary), but they will beat the tar out of you at the range.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #5 on:** June 03, 2013, 01:43:05 AM »

Quote from: xhare on June 03, 2013, 01:25:33 AM

FIRST...This discussion only applies if you have a SB2 frame. One of my 45-70s is an older NEF, beautiful gun, but I bought it in the 90's before the 45-70 barrels were put on the strongest frames they made. Its not really an SB1 but not a SB2 either. Other than that Im not sure on all the details.

If you dig through reloading manuals like I do, you might be surprised at how much power you can get out of top SAAMI loads (28K). Even so, heavy Marlin loads are the highest I ever went, even in my youth. I touched off a couple of Ruger loads in a Browning 1885 I used to have...no thank you. They are ok for hunting (but not necessary), but they will beat the tar out of you at the range.

EXCELLENT POINT!!!!

YES, YES, These heavy +P/Marlin loads are only for SB2 frames! No one needs to get hurt!

CW

petemi · « **Reply #6 on:** June 03, 2013, 02:55:52 AM »

Do yourself a favor and forget pistol powders in the .45-70. It ain't a pistol or a shotgun. Try IMR4198. It works great in the .45-70 from sub-sonic to more than you can stand. My shoulder quit with a 405 running 1950 fps. Remember, IT'S GOTTA BE A SB2 FRAME.

Pete

Norminator · « **Reply #7 on:** June 03, 2013, 07:29:30 AM »

Yes, what petemi said. I got my 410-415 grain bullets up to 2000 FPS. I then wrote "OUCH" in
my records manual and backed off to 1800 FPS.

Norm from Canuckistan

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** June 03, 2013, 01:37:36 PM »

Quote from: xhare on June 03, 2013, 01:25:33 AM

FIRST...This discussion only applies if you have a SB2 frame. One of my 45-70s is an older NEF, beautiful gun, but I bought it in the 90's before the 45-70 barrels were put on the strongest frames they made. Its not really an SB1 but not a SB2 either. Other than that Im not sure on all the details.

If you dig through reloading manuals like I do, you might be surprised at how much power you can get out of top SAAMI loads (28K). Even so, heavy Marlin loads are the highest I ever went, even in my youth. I touched off a couple of Ruger loads in a Browning 1885 I used to have...no thank you. They are ok for hunting (but not necessary), but they will beat the tar out of you at the range.

NEF never made a 45-70 rifle on a cast iron frame that I'm aware of, just SB2, any NEF or H&R 45-70 made 1987 or later would have come on an SB2 frame, there were no Handi-rifles made by H&R Inc 1986 and earlier, their 45-70, the model 155 Shikari (1973-1981) was on a cast iron frame. If you read the H&R timeline sticky, you'll see NEF started making firearms in Jan 1987 and later that year rifles and handguns.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,229838.msg1099278933.html#msg1099278933

gcrank1 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 03, 2013, 01:51:59 PM »

405gr., or more, at 1950+ is not pleasant for me.
I suggest anyone new to the 45-70 start at a Black Powder equivalent load; ie, 1250ish fps, and work up in velo by about 150fps increments a few rounds at a time to find out where your threshold is. It is (literally) a pain to find you have made a box full of something so stout you dont really want to shoot it.
Using a powder you do have on hand and a familiarity with is not a bad thing, but keep in mind that powder may not be the best one for your application. Consult several reloading manuals for consensus on whatever you consider and dont load for max right off. Every manual Ive ever seen says to start low and work your way up watching for signs of trouble.

Mike in Virginia · « **Reply #10 on:** June 03, 2013, 02:21:04 PM »

I'm for sure not the best hand loader on the block, but I do fairly well. When I bought the new B/C 45-70, I also got a set of dies. That was 3 years ago and I still cannot develop a respectable load that is as accurate as factory stuff.

I think it's the big case. It holds so much smokeless powder. Lots of air space between the charge and the bullet. Way too much. Except with Trail Boss, but no matter what charge I use with that powder, I can't get good accuracy with hardcast flatpoints or jacketed bullets.

So, I settled on green box Remington 405 JSP. Much more expensive than reloading, but it's a round I can depend on for really tight groups and plenty of power. The jacketed round sort of takes away from the romance and history of the 45-70, but they sure work well. I think my 45-70 with the Remington ammo is the most accurate iron-sighted rifle I've ever shot. Currently using Skinner sights.

wolverine_1 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 03, 2013, 03:07:34 PM »

Two ways to get better accurcy: 1. put filler in to take up the space, 2. point the rifle up then carefully lower it to shooting position (the same each time) so the powder is in the same poistion each shot.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #12 on:** June 03, 2013, 03:21:36 PM »

Quote from: wolverine_1 on June 03, 2013, 03:07:34 PM

Two ways to get better accurcy: 1. put filler in to take up the space, 2. point the rifle up then carefully lower it to shooting position (the same each time) so the powder is in the same poistion each shot.

BOTH CAN BE VERY DANGERIOUS!!!

There is a third choice, dont try to recreate the wheel. Simply use bulkier powder...

CW

twoshooter · « **Reply #13 on:** June 03, 2013, 04:01:45 PM »

I started loading for 45/70 back in the 70's, and I shot lots with dacron filler with no problem. I later shot many without the filler and it worked just as well. I find no use for "magnum" level loads and settled on 34 gr of 4198 and a 330 gr cast bullet which is extremely accurate in my gun. For jacketed loads I use 47 gr of RL7 and a 300 gr HP. The buffalo herds were almost made extinct with loads below this level. What are you shooting that is bigger than buffalo

gcrank1 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 03, 2013, 04:10:41 PM »

'Fillers' vs 'over powder wads' is a course of study worthy of research by those considering the use of either. They are NOT the same and are an advanced technique often lightly entered into by the unsuspecting.

xhare · « **Reply #15 on:** June 03, 2013, 04:41:24 PM »

Quick,

All I know is that according to the instructions that came with it I was limited in the calibers I could send it in for. It could be sent in for all the low pressure stuff, also 44 and 357, 30-30, and 223. However they would not fit such calibers as 308, 270, etc. I have a 223 barrel for it. I have never pulled the butt stock off to see if its a SB2 or not. It has a NF prefix, so 1991 manufacturer.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** June 03, 2013, 06:15:04 PM »

They wouldn't fit high pressure barrels (those that were marked with an asterisk * on the accessory barrel list at the time, see below) to 1999 and older NEF/H&R frames because they were made by NEF, Marlin bought H&R in 2000, same reason they still won't.

Tim

http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.asp

Quote

Rifle barrels may be added to firearms manufactured since 2000 and only to frames (SB-2) that originated as a rifle, if frame passes inspection.

xhare · « **Reply #17 on:** June 03, 2013, 07:36:42 PM »

My copy was older, but that is essentially what it said. NEF must have made some good barrels, my '91 45-70 is a tack driver. Often under an inch at 100 yards. For years I kept a target that had 3 holes (almost looked like two holes) that had a group I could completely cover with a nickle. It is the rifle I have owned longest and I won't let it go.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #18 on:** June 04, 2013, 02:02:22 AM »

I use to use fillers like Oatmeal and Granex too...

I also used to drive fast cars, TOO FAST, Drink and drive, chase women and eat allot of cheesy / fatty foods... Then I smartened up. I made alot of bad choices before I knew better.

CW

petemi · « **Reply #19 on:** June 04, 2013, 02:42:00 AM »

Geeze, Brian, I thought I was the only one who misspent his youth that way. It's a miracle I made it this far.

Back to the topic: No, I won't use, never have used, fillers or wads. I agree, there are powder options out there that are a better choice. Wads belong in shotgun shells for a reason.

Pete

Grumpybear · « **Reply #20 on:** June 04, 2013, 03:58:46 AM »

If you have that much trouble with accuracy, have you tryed going to a little larger cast bullet? I use a.460 in my 45-70 and its softcast as well. Seems to shoot well enuff for me. Of course, If I'm standing inside a barn with the doors closed I still hit the floor, but thats just me not the rifle.

Grumpy

wolverine_1 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 04, 2013, 07:53:44 AM »

"'Two ways to get better accurcy: 1. put filler in to take up the space, 2. point the rifle up then carefully lower it to shooting position (the same each time) so the powder is in the same poistion each shot.'

BOTH CAN BE VERY DANGERIOUS!!!

There is a third choice, dont try to recreate the wheel. Simply use bulkier powder...

CW" CW, Croft Barker in his excelent book "Shooting the .43 Spanish Rolling Block" addresses this issue (pages 90-94) at some length with the recommendation that filler is the best way to avoid both accuracy problems and safety issues with large capacity black powder cases loaded with smokeless powder. He also provides the reasons for his conclusions. Realizing that the above is a very trunkated version of the 5 pages of discussion he presents, I'd recommend the book to anyone wanting to use smokeless powder in large capacity black powder cases. By the way, nothing wrong with bulkier powder.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 04, 2013, 10:48:00 AM »

I believe that Schwartz and Dell in their excellent tome 'The Modern Schuetzen Rifle' go into some depth on 'chamber rings' from the use of over powder wads and the lack of duplication of the same effect by the proper use of fillers in smokeless or black powder loads. A number of inert and light substances can be used as fillers (which again I must reiterate are NOT wads) that completely fill the void between a low load density charge and the bullet base and wont add hardly a thing top ejecta weight or pressures.

petemi · « **Reply #23 on:** June 04, 2013, 12:18:41 PM »

All this goes back to why I have a bunch of rifles. If I want a slower, faster, fatter, slimmer, flat shooting, sub-sonic, etc. etc. etc. I don't mess with my load......the secret is CHANGE RIFLES. It's so easy, a child can do it.

Pete

reload68 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 04, 2013, 12:31:34 PM »

If you really want an education on 45 70 reloading pick up Spence's book on it. Mostly pertains to black powder stuff but the research he did on this cartridge is incredible. You can duplicate the 'ole trapdoor loads with SR4579 which are easy on the shoulder or even easier with Trail Boss. I use it (TB) in my Shikari with a 490gr LFP and love it!!! Pretending to be an artillary piece is a hoot!!