Author Topic: Hardness of WW Lead?  (Read 1836 times)

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Offline flmason

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Hardness of WW Lead?
« on: June 02, 2013, 06:24:06 PM »
One of the most common things I read about is WW lead cast bullets.

But I read WW Lead has changed in recent times...

So is there a hardness number associated with "traditional" WW lead?

Offline mauserand9mm

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2013, 04:55:23 PM »
Modern wheel weights are lead free (pure zinc). The old lead wheel weights had a BHN between 6 and 12 - the stick-ons had more lead and were softer than the clip on style of weight.

Offline 336SC

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2013, 02:45:12 AM »
My old stock of WW metal has a BHN between 13 and 15.   I use that for all my casting for both handguns and rifles.  I get super accurate loads @ 2300fps in my .32 Win Special and no leading what so ever.  I use Javelina Alox to lube my bullets, which is no longer available, but I have quite a stash of it ready to use.  When it comes to cast bullets I make, my quality control standards are extremely stringent both in appearance and in weight control.
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Offline twoshooter

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2013, 05:12:12 PM »
Most of my WW metal is circa 80's and 90's, I would say it runs about 12 +-. The secret there may be that it has lead in the form of arsenate which makes it heat treatable. If you drop them in cold water- quench them, they are much harder. You can also heat treat them in the oven. I shoot most of my loads from 1300/1600 fps and have not had any problems.
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 11:54:54 PM »
goof ball park answer is about 10bhn
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Offline LAH

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 04:21:30 PM »
I purchase them from all over the country & I've had them at 10 & 14 BHN & everything between.
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Offline 336SC

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2013, 12:37:18 AM »
Until you purchase a lead hardness testing kit as I have, all you are gonna get is golf park figures.  My response was based on actual test data.
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Offline LAH

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2013, 03:45:13 AM »
Until you purchase a lead hardness testing kit as I have, all you are gonna get is golf park figures.  My response was based on actual test data.
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Mine also. The ones from the upper midwest have tested harder for me than those from Utah & Nevada. Ohio & Michigan are 14BHN. Florida seems to be 10 & 11BHN. Don't ask me why other than perhaps they come from different foundries or are made for to different formulas for different companies?
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Offline flmason

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2013, 06:36:09 PM »
Until you purchase a lead hardness testing kit as I have, all you are gonna get is golf park figures.  My response was based on actual test data.
336SC

No doubt. I was thinking the Lee Hardness Tester would be a good eventual purchase. It's going to be a while before I get around to actually casting. I'm to deep in suburbia and tight living quarters for it now. I mean I could... but I don't need the extra clutter just yet. But definitely planning for the future.

Me personally, I've never shot cast at velocities the even needed a gas check. Mostly just 44 mag from an H&G 503 mold. But given I'm planning on some .30 cal rifle bullets eventually, the question about how to get to the velocity range that makes a .30 cal rifle work is on the back of my mind, so heat treat / quenching, etc. is something I guess I'll be looking at eventually. Have given in to the idea that a GC is probably unavoidable in anything smaller than a 45-70.

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2013, 11:58:16 PM »
a hardness tester is a great thing to have but there sure not exact. I had three at the same time. A seaco, lbt and cabin tree. All three would give differnt readings ont he same bullet. A hardness tester is more suited to comparing one batch of lead to another then they are to giving you the exact hardness of a bullet. I dont know if lynn is right about lead varying state to state. All mine has been from here in michigan and ive never had a batch test higher then 13 with any of my testers. Most is around 10-11. Water dropped i can get it up to 15 plus but not air cooled. My favorite alloy is 5050 mix of lineotype and ww and air cooled that usually goes between 15 and 17. If you truely have ww that tests at 15bhn you have some rare wws there. Ive been doing this for 30 plus years and have had testers for probably 20 of those years. I hear all the time that wws are softer now but ive really never noticed a differnce between my readings now and my readings 10 years ago. I think the major reason people claim this is they dont seperate the stick ons from the clip ons and these days theres a bigger percentage that are stick on because so many cars use alloy wheels and being that stick ons are pure it makes your final product a bit softer. My average if i dont seperate the stick ons is around 9bhn. So dont think because you own a tester that your readings are the wrote in stone right answer. Theres to many variables in what tester your using and your technique to be able to come up with the answer that is the absolute right one.
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Offline 336SC

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2013, 01:16:29 AM »
a hardness tester is a great thing to have but there sure not exact. I had three at the same time. A seaco, lbt and cabin tree. All three would give differnt readings ont he same bullet. A hardness tester is more suited to comparing one batch of lead to another then they are to giving you the exact hardness of a bullet. I dont know if lynn is right about lead varying state to state. All mine has been from here in michigan and ive never had a batch test higher then 13 with any of my testers. Most is around 10-11. Water dropped i can get it up to 15 plus but not air cooled. My favorite alloy is 5050 mix of lineotype and ww and air cooled that usually goes between 15 and 17. If you truely have ww that tests at 15bhn you have some rare wws there. Ive been doing this for 30 plus years and have had testers for probably 20 of those years. I hear all the time that wws are softer now but ive really never noticed a differnce between my readings now and my readings 10 years ago. I think the major reason people claim this is they dont seperate the stick ons from the clip ons and these days theres a bigger percentage that are stick on because so many cars use alloy wheels and being that stick ons are pure it makes your final product a bit softer. My average if i dont seperate the stick ons is around 9bhn. So dont think because you own a tester that your readings are the wrote in stone right answer. Theres to many variables in what tester your using and your technique to be able to come up with the answer that is the absolute right one.


Here we go again!  Arguing for the sake of arguing.  Yes I too have been doing the casting thing for over 30 plus years and yes I do have batches of WW metal that tested with a BHN of 15 and thankfully, I'm not from the region of this country you are from so maybe my WW metal came from a different foundry making some of my WW metal harder. My alloy of 50% WW and 50% linotype tested at 18BHN.  My 672 pounds of WW ingots dates from the 60's and the 70's so you are comparing apples to oranges.  Once again I never stated an absolute, just what my tester told me.  I just use the hardness tester to determine if my alloying process is in fact making a harder bullet.
I can't believe I allowed you to get me in another debate with you.  It's like mud wrestling a pig, sooner or later you realize the pig likes it.


336SC
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Offline LAH

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2013, 03:28:12 AM »
I dont know if lynn is right about lead varying state to state. All mine has been from here in michigan and ive never had a batch test higher then 13 with any of my testers. Most is around 10-11.


I've probably purchase more alloy from NW Ohio than any other place. These have tested harder than all others. The bullets cast from after 48 hours go 13-14BHN. And you make a good point about stick on & clip on wheel weights being mixed. The wheel weights I purchase from the net are in ingot form so I can't be 100% certain what are in them.


I just purchased a couple boxes from northern WV & after 48 hours these test 11BHN. Can't explain this other than the alloy for whatever reason varies somewhat.


And Lyman list wheel weights as .5% tin, 4% antimony, 95.5% lead. About 6 or 7 years ago I spoke to the foundry where I purchased alloy & asked for wheel weight alloy. The saleslady asked me which mixture I wanted. I gave her the Lyman formula. The bullets cast test 9BHN just as Lyman said they would. This information is from the Lyman 47 but I also read this somewhere else.


And to note I was searching for this information moments ago I found the Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets [copyright July 1958] list wheel weights at 1% tin, 9% antimony, 90% lead. So the discussion goes on. :-\ [size=78%] [/size]
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2013, 11:24:43 PM »
sorry pal if you consider my post a slam on you. I was just posting my personal experience. If you dont agree so be it but dont fantacise that it had anything to do with you personaly. You know somewhere on here theres a ignore feature and you have my blessings for you to put my name on your ignore list. Seems you have a problem with about every post i make lately.
a hardness tester is a great thing to have but there sure not exact. I had three at the same time. A seaco, lbt and cabin tree. All three would give differnt readings ont he same bullet. A hardness tester is more suited to comparing one batch of lead to another then they are to giving you the exact hardness of a bullet. I dont know if lynn is right about lead varying state to state. All mine has been from here in michigan and ive never had a batch test higher then 13 with any of my testers. Most is around 10-11. Water dropped i can get it up to 15 plus but not air cooled. My favorite alloy is 5050 mix of lineotype and ww and air cooled that usually goes between 15 and 17. If you truely have ww that tests at 15bhn you have some rare wws there. Ive been doing this for 30 plus years and have had testers for probably 20 of those years. I hear all the time that wws are softer now but ive really never noticed a differnce between my readings now and my readings 10 years ago. I think the major reason people claim this is they dont seperate the stick ons from the clip ons and these days theres a bigger percentage that are stick on because so many cars use alloy wheels and being that stick ons are pure it makes your final product a bit softer. My average if i dont seperate the stick ons is around 9bhn. So dont think because you own a tester that your readings are the wrote in stone right answer. Theres to many variables in what tester your using and your technique to be able to come up with the answer that is the absolute right one.


Here we go again!  Arguing for the sake of arguing.  Yes I too have been doing the casting thing for over 30 plus years and yes I do have batches of WW metal that tested with a BHN of 15 and thankfully, I'm not from the region of this country you are from so maybe my WW metal came from a different foundry making some of my WW metal harder. My alloy of 50% WW and 50% linotype tested at 18BHN.  My 672 pounds of WW ingots dates from the 60's and the 70's so you are comparing apples to oranges.  Once again I never stated an absolute, just what my tester told me.  I just use the hardness tester to determine if my alloying process is in fact making a harder bullet.
I can't believe I allowed you to get me in another debate with you.  It's like mud wrestling a pig, sooner or later you realize the pig likes it.


336SC
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Offline 336SC

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2013, 01:20:40 AM »
First off I'm not your"pal".  Second you seem to be an authority and an expert on everything.  Thirdly you only partially read my posts and respond to what you read into them and not to what I have written.  You DO slam my posts every time you respond to one.  Having a well thought out intelligent debate with you is impossible since you "know" every thing or think you do.
336SC
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2013, 01:26:31 AM »
I rarely even look at whos posting so to think i single you out is about a joke. I post my opinions just like everyone else. If they dont follow your opinions it doesnt mean either one of us are right or wrong. Personaly when i ask something or post something i like responses that disagree with me as i am never to old to learn something new. You show me one place in my response to this post that shows any disrespect to you and ill eat crow. It was you that personaly attacked me not the other way. In what world is posting my results on testing ww is differnt then yours any kind of personal attack. This is about a joke.
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Offline 336SC

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2013, 03:09:58 AM »
Right here's an example and I'm quoting you:  "If you truely have ww that tests at 15bhn you have some rare wws there".  You apparently doubt my integrity and ability to use a lead hardness tester, right?  This is another quote from you in the same response, "So don't think because you own a tester that your readings are the wrote in stone right answer".   I just said that if you don't own a tester you are "guessing" at the hardness, not that my bhn testing was the only correct hardness on any WW metal.  Stop looking for arguments and you won't get any.
336SC
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Offline flmason

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2013, 02:46:16 PM »
a hardness tester is a great thing to have but there sure not exact. I had three at the same time. A seaco, lbt and cabin tree. All three would give differnt readings ont he same bullet. A hardness tester is more suited to comparing one batch of lead to another then they are to giving you the exact hardness of a bullet. I dont know if lynn is right about lead varying state to state. All mine has been from here in michigan and ive never had a batch test higher then 13 with any of my testers. Most is around 10-11. Water dropped i can get it up to 15 plus but not air cooled. My favorite alloy is 5050 mix of lineotype and ww and air cooled that usually goes between 15 and 17. If you truely have ww that tests at 15bhn you have some rare wws there. Ive been doing this for 30 plus years and have had testers for probably 20 of those years. I hear all the time that wws are softer now but ive really never noticed a differnce between my readings now and my readings 10 years ago. I think the major reason people claim this is they dont seperate the stick ons from the clip ons and these days theres a bigger percentage that are stick on because so many cars use alloy wheels and being that stick ons are pure it makes your final product a bit softer. My average if i dont seperate the stick ons is around 9bhn. So dont think because you own a tester that your readings are the wrote in stone right answer. Theres to many variables in what tester your using and your technique to be able to come up with the answer that is the absolute right one.

Yes, I suspect most measuring instruments have some variance. I know vertical micrometers I used to measure silicon wafers in the semi-conductor industry did. 3 gauges would give 3 different readings. Used to zero them on a optical flat. Somehow I don't thing a $50 Lee (or other) hardness tester is going to exactly align with the next one, let alone across brands. Unless Brinells are fairly broad units of measure.

I was just looking for a ballpark hardness for "WW Lead" in the event I resort to ordering a slab from Rotometals or whatnot. "WW Lead" seems to be a common standard of hardness among bullet casters.

What's driving the question is the recent purchase of some .30 cal. rifles.

I prefer to cast my own, but 2700 fps is generally considered to be way beyond plain base velocities. (That's why I have a 45-70 honestly... the extra bullet mass lets it get the job done at plain base velocities. With correspondingly round trajectory.)

I'm scratching my head and thinking... "Well really, .30 cal rifles are pretty much creatures of velocity, maybe they're not for me if I prefer to cast my own." 

Gas checks, paper patching, etc. lots of extra steps. processes, parts.

When I note that the energy levels of cast bullets from .30 cal rifles at those lower velocities are in the .357 mag  to .44 mag range, I find myself thinking... why not just carry a .44 revolver?

Granted GC's and harder alloys could change that quite a bit.

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2013, 12:15:21 AM »
wasnt even remotely claiming your didnt know what you were doing. If you read my post completely instead of flying off at the handle youd have seem that the jist of it was that I had 3 differnt testers and all gave differnt readings and that in my opinion because of that you cant trust them to give a wrote in stone hardness reading and that i use them more to compare differnt alloys or to get a ball park idea when i buy alloys that are questionable. Its you here that are arguing not me.    I post on this forum to share my expereinces hopely to help someone with a question or problem. I think the the 15 or so years ive been on here ive helped a few. In that time theres been only a couple like you that for some reason feel threatened by it. I have to doubt seriously that if i picked fights post bs that i would never have been asked to be a moderator here and surely would have been asked to step down from it years ago. Ill again walk away fromt this petty argument and let you get in the last word. 
Right here's an example and I'm quoting you:  "If you truely have ww that tests at 15bhn you have some rare wws there".  You apparently doubt my integrity and ability to use a lead hardness tester, right?  This is another quote from you in the same response, "So don't think because you own a tester that your readings are the wrote in stone right answer".   I just said that if you don't own a tester you are "guessing" at the hardness, not that my bhn testing was the only correct hardness on any WW metal.  Stop looking for arguments and you won't get any.
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Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Hardness of WW Lead?
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2013, 05:08:11 AM »
Do I need to stick you two in a time out chair ?  >:(  You both know the rules !
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:D If i can,t stop it with 6 it can,t be stopped