Why do we pay so many taxes?

[ironglow]

  Although the chart purportedly reports all the spending..there are still gaps with no assignment.  When we look at the varoious "departments" (first chart) many of them could be done away with and they wouldn't be missed.  Also when they start juggling the chart figures, suddenly the military is no longer 20%, nor Social Security is no longer 21..somebody is juggling the charts for theim own agenda..
  Don't forget Social Security is paid into..as is MediCARE..but not MediCaid.  If the Johnson administration would have kept government's greasy hands out of SS back in the 60's , SS would likely be a negligible cost. 

[Anna]

You mean that monster military that is having to eat cold MRE's?

Yes

Or all those Navy ships going into
mothball because we don't have the money to fund them anymore?

Yes, that one!

Or is it the French Navy patrolling most of the seas around Africa now?

I don't know - are they? What does that have to do with our bloated military?

Or the Russians who are in number in anything south of the Caribbean?

could you rephrase, please? I don't follow your meaning...

I know your taking about the Japanese naval build up going on now to control the Pacific Rim!

Well, I know the diff between your and you're. Anyhow... I've not talked about the Japanese Navy, but I could. Japan doesn't have a navy. Japan has a Maritime Self-Defense Force (but it's a pretty good imitation of a navy)

Wrong military's, you need to subscribe to JANE's so you can get your military's straight.

I've not owned a copy in years, but I've owned a couple in the past, and I'll bet I've spent more time in it over the past 40 years than you have.

How funny, like a defense force couldn't go offensive overnight. Or pump lots of money into
the Phillipines in modernizeing their manufacturing capacity.
Oh, and yellow belly the acount at JANE's is in my fathers name and he was serving this country long
before you were ever crapping"Yellow".
And he talked about this stuff all the time. Ok yellow whatever, who is it that even owns JANE's?
Since you've been there so long, you should be able to answer this without your search engine.
And it isn't who you think it is, not anymore.
" Oh but I was there for years awhile back ". Yeah right, if you were what was the nick name
for the F4 Phantom? Who builds the engines for the F18 Hornet?
Who was Eugene Stoner and who did he work for? 

What was the name of the USS Forestal's sister ship that served in the Tonkin Gulf?
Such a war hawk like you should know these things right off the top of your head!
I know the answers do you? JANE's runs articals about things like this all the time.
And always has and in fair play you can question me as well.

 
 

[yellowtail3]

Anna goes off topic:

Ok yellow whatever

such nastiness... it is hormonal?

who is it that even owns JANE's?

I don't know. My dad owned a copy when I was in jr high.

Since you've been there so long, you should be able to answer this without your search engine.

I'll try...

" Oh but I was there for years awhile back ". Yeah right, if you were what was the nick name
for the F4 Phantom?

depends on who who ask. Rhino? Double Ugly? Phabulous Phantom?

Who builds the engines for the F18 Hornet?

GE or P&W, I'd guess - 404 something, I think. Phantoms used varieties of the J79. Why the quiz?

Who was Eugene Stoner and who did he work for?

I think he designed the AR, and worked for Armalite.

What was the name of the USS Forestal's sister ship that served in the Tonkin Gulf?

There were four Forrestals, I'm pretty certain they were all deployed to Vietnam at various times - Ranger, Saratoga, and... Constellation?

Such a war hawk like you should know these things right off the top of your head!

that's your characterization of me, not my claim

I know the answers do you?

you'll have to grade my paper and let me know... ?

EDIT: It just came to me... the last of the Forrestal's was the Independence, not the Connie.

[Anna]

Engine Stoner worked for Cadillac Gauge not Armalite he helped form Armalite. F
The British own JANE's it is publicly subsidized. D+
A good try I am impressed. A-
A little broad with the F4, not what i was looking for but correct. A-
GE half right, P&W were out bid but made some prototypes. B+
Saratoga I asked you who served in the Tonkin Gulf. D-
Pretty good YT that's about a 3.2 average and you did step up to the plate.


The Forestal's your talking about were retrofits of the same aircraft carrier. No US Navy ship carries
the same name as an active duty ship. Engine Stoner was famous for his M63, he lost the bid
to Colts M16 with his AR180. Which was a much better rifle by the way it only cost more to
produce. Robinson Arms made a knock off of the M63 calked the M96.
But it had a lot of recalls then Alex Robinson dropped it for his XCR.
It too has had its problems as well as his conversion to the 7.62x39 version of the same XCR rifle.
Proprietary mags that were prone to failure and in short supply.
Its all on JANE's.

[yellowtail3]

Engine Stoner worked for Cadillac Gauge not Armalite he helped form Armalite. F

close enough.

Saratoga I asked you who served in the Tonkin Gulf. D-

I think you should go back and look again... all four of the Forrestals served in the Tonkin Gulf. I'm going to guess you meant, Persian Gulf, in Gulf War? I'll PM you an interesting story

The Forestal's your talking about were retrofits of the same aircraft carrier.

No, when I say the Forrestals, I refer to the four ships of the Forrestal-class of carriers. Forrestal was the name ship of that class. I've been aboard a couple of them. We used to call the Forrestal 'FID (First in Defense, ref'ing ship's namesake)

[mauser98us]

looks like the one eating up most of the pie charts is the freebies doled out to buy votes. And the winner is.... freebies to buy votes. Everybody should adopt an illegal alien family to drop the cost of this down.Hell I,m temporarily working in Douglas, Arizona and drive by the schools at departure time. All the plates on the cars have Mexico state of Sonora plates on them. My taxes to school illegals.Douglas is a border town. You talk in platitudes,I live it. Must be nice to live in a protected area,where theories work.

[mcwoodduck]

But the funding of the Military is in the constitution and many of the things they are collecting taxes for are NOT in the constitution no matter what we  are spending on the Military it is one of governements direct jobs.  You can claim that the commerce clause of the constitution allows for hte spending and repairing of the Interstate hwy system, including the bridges and tunnels.  But Social Security, Health care, Charities, abortion, and many other things are not and if you want to curtail the things that the constitution directs congress to spend on then you really need to help everyone cancel the things the federal government is doing that are not in the constitution.and redirect maney to the failing infrastructure that is needed and not fund the giveaways that are not part of government. 

[ironglow]

But the funding of the Military is in the constitution and many of the things they are collecting taxes for are NOT in the constitution no matter what we  are spending on the Military it is one of governements direct jobs.  You can claim that the commerce clause of the constitution allows for hte spending and repairing of the Interstate hwy system, including the bridges and tunnels.  But Social Security, Health care, Charities, abortion, and many other things are not and if you want to curtail the things that the constitution directs congress to spend on then you really need to help everyone cancel the things the federal government is doing that are not in the constitution.and redirect maney to the failing infrastructure that is needed and not fund the giveaways that are not part of government.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
  My point exactly; if the feds would drop all the unearned "freebies"..cell phones, headstart, abortion..etc  there would be enough funds to do what the constitution mandates they do.

[Soilman]

Oldshooter has part of the problem pinned down.  It isn't JUST the military, it ALL government.  I work for the government.  It makes us almost sick at our office when we have to order supplies, because it is so wasteful.  Here's how the governemnt operates:  Let's say we need some copy/printer papter.  Now, the easy and most sensible thing to do would be to go across the street to Staples, buy a few packs and bill it to our agency.  Oh, but NOOO!  We are ALLOWED to do that.  You see, we have these things call government contracts...to minority owned business that we HAVE to order from.  So, ok, we go on their website to order the paper.  HOLY CRAP!  They charge DOUBLE what the paper costs at Staples!  On top of that, they have a $100 MINIMUM ORDER!  So, we have to buy $70 or $80 bucks worth of stuff that we don't need, just to get a couple of reams of paper!  Ain't "capatilism"  great! 
 
Personally, I think we need to incrementally begin to cut deep into all the social programs.  There are PLENTY of abled bodied CITIZENS in the U.S. that are just plain to lazy to work or get an education.  They found out that out government would essentually pay them NOT to do the menial, low waged jobs that are the only ones they are qualified for.  However, I'd be willing to bet if their "paycheck" quit coming, and thier pantry was as empty as their stomach, they'd be willing to work almost any kind of job for some money.  That would solve 2 problems.  Less social programs to pay for, and less jobs for illegals...therefore not as much reason for them to come here.

[Anna]

Engine Stoner worked for Cadillac Gauge not Armalite he helped form Armalite. F

close enough.

Saratoga I asked you who served in the Tonkin Gulf. D-

I think you should go back and look again... all four of the Forrestals served in the Tonkin Gulf. I'm going to guess you meant, Persian Gulf, in Gulf War? I'll PM you an interesting story

The Forestal's your talking about were retrofits of the same aircraft carrier.

No, when I say the Forrestals, I refer to the four ships of the Forrestal-class of carriers. Forrestal was the name ship of that class. I've been aboard a couple of them. We used to call the Forrestal 'FID (First in Defense, ref'ing ship's namesake)

Sent you a PM and as you will see I had an unfair advantage on you when it came to these ships
and those aircraft. Yes they were the Forestal class carriers but I'm talking about the ships
themselves. The Saratoga was the first carrier to get the E2C Hawkeye and the F16.
VAW 123 was the E2 squadron and after her deployment in VN the Sara was sent back to Norfolk
to be retrofitted with the new aircraft. After that she did a shakedown off the coast of Cuba
meant to make Castro very nervious and to show off or newest weapons systems.

The Sara was chosen for this because she was known to have some very powerful cats. One of a
kind at the time is what they said. Well capible of tearing off the nose hook on an aircraft if the
yellow shirt wasnt carful. But well suited for the new aircraft especilly the F16.
My source was on the Sara during this transition and helped get the older F4s ready to be flown
to NAS China Lake California via Va. Beach. My source was an AO, so he was trained in the new
weapon systems on the F16 as well as having a knowledge of the small arms used in the VN war.

So he can say he is one of the few that had hands on experience with the F4 and the F16.
My point is back on topic, this is but one example of how or millitary used to spend its money
wisely. Send the VN war horse the USS Saratoga with a known reputation of being able to
launch very heavy payloads. Right down to Cuba and have her strut her stuff right under the
noses of the Soviet Union. The Sara at the time was not one to mess with her crew was battle
hardened looking for a fight. Its called a deterant, let your foes know what your now capible
of doing and how well you can do it. The new E2C Hawkeyes were well capable of watching Castro
takeing a shower and could call in the new F16s within minutes bringing him some soap on a rope.

It sure got the attention of the Soviets even Pravda was watching and reporting on this. I don't
mind one bit if our millitary spends its money like this, showing off like this might have stalled
off any Soviet aggression elsewhere during our pull out of VN. The Sara knew the waters and she
knew where the critical targets were just in case she had to go back over there. The Sara was never
a police action, when she rored she always had the last word. And John McCain was never really
welcome on her decks, my source said her crew always was grumbling about what really happened
on her sister ship the Forestal.




 

[yellowtail3]

... The Saratoga was the first carrier to get the E2C Hawkeye and the F16.....well suited for the new aircraft especilly the F16...he is one of the few that had hands on experience with the F4 and the F16...The new E2C Hawkeyes were well capable of watching Castro
takeing a shower and could call in the new F16s

I'll assume you when your write F16, you really meant F/A-18 - the USN has never operated the F-16 from a carrier. We used the F-16 for adversary training - and wore them out pretty quickly, that's hard on the airframe - but never from flight deck.

[Anna]

... The Saratoga was the first carrier to get the E2C Hawkeye and the F16.....well suited for the new aircraft especilly the F16...he is one of the few that had hands on experience with the F4 and the F16...The new E2C Hawkeyes were well capable of watching Castro
takeing a shower and could call in the new F16s

I'll assume you when your write F16, you really meant F/A-18 - the USN has never operated the F-16 from a carrier. We used the F-16 for adversary training - and wore them out pretty quickly, that's hard on the airframe - but never from flight deck.

Oh my! Then what is this?

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article24.html
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=1150&ct=1

[yellowtail3]

... The Saratoga was the first carrier to get the E2C Hawkeye and the F16.....well suited for the new aircraft especilly the F16...he is one of the few that had hands on experience with the F4 and the F16...The new E2C Hawkeyes were well capable of watching Castro
takeing a shower and could call in the new F16s

I'll assume you when your write F16, you really meant F/A-18 - the USN has never operated the F-16 from a carrier. We used the F-16 for adversary training - and wore them out pretty quickly, that's hard on the airframe - but never from flight deck.

Oh my! Then what is this?

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article24.html
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=1150&ct=1

That's easy - it's a variety of F-16, specifically Block 30 F-16C/D models with strengthened airframe, no cannon, no missiles, and very definitely NOT carrier capable. As I wrote earlier... it was operated only from land bases, in dissimilar adversary role. Great acceleration, good persistence, just a fine aircraft... but never operated from an aircraft carrier.
I suppose it could have been done as a stunt - you could talk some carrier-qualified Marine into trying it: he could land the F-16 on a carrier... once, then replace the landing gear if the hook wasn't ripped off and the rest of the aircraft survived the trauma. The aircraft simply was not designed for carrier operations.

[sr sawyer]

 yellowtail3, since this has gone completely off topic I would like to ask,  when did you serve and when did you receive your honorable discharge.
 
Ken.

[yellowtail3]

Started under Carter, served through the Reagan years, left during Clinton administration.

[sr sawyer]

 
 
Ken

[mcwoodduck]

... The Saratoga was the first carrier to get the E2C Hawkeye and the F16.....well suited for the new aircraft especilly the F16...he is one of the few that had hands on experience with the F4 and the F16...The new E2C Hawkeyes were well capable of watching Castro
takeing a shower and could call in the new F16s

I'll assume you when your write F16, you really meant F/A-18 - the USN has never operated the F-16 from a carrier. We used the F-16 for adversary training - and wore them out pretty quickly, that's hard on the airframe - but never from flight deck.

Oh my! Then what is this?

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article24.html
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=1150&ct=1

Remember the movie TOP GUN?  where they teach the Navy pilots to fight their planes against smaller more agile planes.  The navy is using the F-16 in a training roll as an OPFOR (opposing force)  and they fly the way our enemies are trained.  The F-16 is similar to may Migs and Yaks that the 3rd world has purchased from the Old Soviet Union  and used Soviet pilots to train them in flying them. 
At one point the navy was flying the F-5 a single seat fighter version of the T-38 that the Air force uses to train its pilots. 

[yellowtail3]

Remember the movie TOP GUN?  where they teach the Navy pilots to fight their planes against smaller more agile planes.  The navy is using the F-16 in a training roll as an OPFOR (opposing force)  and they fly the way our enemies are trained.  The F-16 is similar to may Migs and Yaks that the 3rd world has purchased from the Old Soviet Union  and used Soviet pilots to train them in flying them. 
At one point the navy was flying the F-5 a single seat fighter version of the T-38 that the Air force uses to train its pilots.

Pretty much what he said. A fine aircraft, the F-5e/f. They did a decent job of emulating a MiG-21, if somewhat slower, but had nowhere near the acceleration and speec of MiG-23 and especially later MiG-29 Fulcrums, so something better was needed (and the F-5s were getting tired). So, they brought on the F-16 - it was about the only thing that could accelerate like a MiG-23 (and could turn a hell of a lot better). For a while the navy used Kfirs for the same reason, dubbing it F-21 - it was the original MiG-23 impostor. 

[Anna]

Ahh but what was your rank and your MOS?  All of a sudden your a war hawk with a big time
avatar. Where before you sounded like John Kerry.
You have some real ego issues YT your either right or you assume the role of what your trying to prove. Do you have a link or some proof of what your saying about your service?
I wouldn't ask that of any veteran except one that was so anti military who turned on a dime
when it was convenient for him. Or was that only a switch and bait having another member ask
you those questions so you could respond the way you did and him with a smile?
Liberal egos always expose themselves.

[yellowtail3]

I'd rather not be subject of this thread. Direct questions via PM.

Ahh but what was your rank and your MOS?  All of a sudden your a war hawk with a big time
avatar.

First off, in the navy we don't assign anyone an 'MOS' - if they're enlisted they've an NEC in addition to their rate, and officers have a designator - 111x for SWO, 132x for an NFO are examples. Regarding 'big time avatar' - wassup with dat, sister? It's a simple photo taken from the prow on one of the ships I was on. Would you prefer to see my smiling face again?

I wouldn't ask that of any veteran except one that was so anti military who turned on a dime
when it was convenient for him.

'turned on a dime'? Whaaat?


Clearly, Anna has gone hormonal.

[Cabin4]

Waste, fraud and abuse of its citizens. Thats what our tax dollars are used for. Thanks to Obama and the democrats.