Identifying marks.

[JonnyReb]

 Well i didn't know what else to title it and i didn't know where else to put it so until this thread gets moved maybe you guys can help me out. This is really concerning a pistol but its a single shot .45 and didn't fit under the "cap and ball " section. If theres a better place for this then of course take it away mods and sorry for the trouble.

 I picked up this pistol from a guy locally, he said it was a CVA kentucky pistol and it looks just like one so even though its not marked as such i'm sure it is. The only marks on the barrel are "Blackpowder only" and these funny japanese looking marks that i assume are proofmarks. I don't know much about cVA's and figure one of ya'll will recognize it. Might be spanish, ardesa? or such but i wondered if maybe it was a miroku?, who made similar pistol kits. I just wondered if anyone recognized them? The pistol is supposedly unfired and looks to be, interestingly, i pulled the side plate off while diassembling it and someone with my Grandfathers name must have put it together. C. Berry 1976 is scratched into the wood. My grandfather was Clarence Berry and while it wasn't him, still pretty cool and also dates the latest it could have been made.

 Check out the insides of the barrel, weirdest rifling i've ever seen.

[JonnyReb]

 Duh..i looked close and its nothing but ".45" struck 4 times overlapping. looked like chinese writing to me. So its another CVA barrel mystery, a CVA barrel with no proofs and no marks sigifying place of build. I didread in a place or two that barrels imported back then had to have proof marks and lack of proofs signifies a US barrel but thats probably wishful thing. Hey is that rifling whats called button rifling? Looks like it'll be a booger to clean.  J

[P.A. Myers]

I hate to say it but it looks like tool chatter when it was reamed [if it was reamed]. Then they rifled it anyway. Just a WAG, India? or some other Asian hellhole.

  P.A..

[JonnyReb]

    Hope it don't blow up..tie it to a tire, hide behind a tree and pull the string?

[Ladobe]

Whether this will help confirm remains to be seen... (my first thought from the little info given is it leaves plenty of room for doubt whether it is a CVA or not).
 
CVA's Kentucky pistols were a yo-yo model for them during it's entire run.   Their first were sold as having 44 cal (.451 bore) 10" barrels.   Models included standard flint or cap, and deluxe flint or cap - no kits.
 
By 1974 they dropped the assembled standard models, still had the deluxe models but now with 10.5" barrels, and they offered a standard model kit in cap only. 
 
By late 1976 they brought the standard Kentucky models back and offered standard kits in both cap and flint , but now they were 45 cal with 10.25" barrels.   And they dropped the deluxe models.
 
Two more years and they dropped the standard flint, but kept the cap and both kits.
 
In the mid-late 80's they changed the Kentucky to a 50 cal and offered it in cap only.
 
The CVA 44/45 barrels were 7/8" across the flats and the various lengths as above.   So your first "CVA" check would be that the barrel is in fact a 7/8" 45 cal 10.25" long.  It will have dovetailed sights, brass blade front.
 
You make no mention of a serial number and that is a problem.   That does not fit CVA's barrels from that era... they all had serial numbers, every model they made and in specific ranges.   Their barrels were made in Spain, by more than one concern.   So as for the proof marks... CVA has a history of some barrels with no proof marks getting out, and of even more concern to the end user a very strong history (esp later) of barrels with proof marks that were in fact not proofed at all.
 
Lots of companies have offered "Kentucky" type pistols, some better quality than CVA and some worse.   So is this one a CVA?   Can't say without more info/pictures.
 
 

[JonnyReb]

Whether this will help confirm remains to be seen... (my first thought from the little info given is it leaves plenty of room for doubt whether it is a CVA or not).
 
CVA's Kentucky pistols were a yo-yo model for them during it's entire run.   Their first were sold as having 44 cal (.451 bore) 10" barrels.   Models included standard flint or cap, and deluxe flint or cap - no kits.
 
By 1974 they dropped the assembled standard models, still had the deluxe models but now with 10.5" barrels, and they offered a standard model kit in cap only. 
 
By late 1976 they brought the standard Kentucky models back and offered standard kits in both cap and flint , but now they were 45 cal with 10.25" barrels.   And they dropped the deluxe models.
 
Two more years and they dropped the standard flint, but kept the cap and both kits.
 
In the mid-late 80's they changed the Kentucky to a 50 cal and offered it in cap only.
 
The CVA 44/45 barrels were 7/8" across the flats and the various lengths as above.   So your first "CVA" check would be that the barrel is in fact a 7/8" 45 cal 10.25" long.  It will have dovetailed sights, brass blade front.
 
You make no mention of a serial number and that is a problem.   That does not fit CVA's barrels from that era... they all had serial numbers, every model they made and in specific ranges.   Their barrels were made in Spain, by more than one concern.   So as for the proof marks... CVA has a history of some barrels with no proof marks getting out, and of even more concern to the end user a very strong history (esp later) of barrels with proof marks that were in fact not proofed at all.
 
Lots of companies have offered "Kentucky" type pistols, some better quality than CVA and some worse.   So is this one a CVA?   Can't say without more info/pictures.

  That is phenominal information Sir, is this just from memory? I've never seen any info like you just gave anywhere else, i need to write it down myself as with the passing of a few more generations it'll be gone. Thanks so much for taking the time to post it for us.

   I wish i'd taken this pic before i tore it down to refinish but maybe the pile of parts will provide some answers. The barrel indeed does not have a serial number, and is a 7\8" barrel. Dovetails are slotted as you mentioned and the front blade looks like a slightly smaller version of the Mt. Rifle's. Hammer and lock appear to be identical to other CVA locks i've seen, and is marked "spain" on the back. Barrels complete length is 9 3\4". Including the breech plugs backing lug, i get 10" exactly.  I just miked the bore and it's .451, but i guess all this still doesn't explain the lack of a serial number. Look forward to hearing your thoughts on this pistols manufacturer , and really appreciate all the information.  Jeff

[Ladobe]

Jeff,
 
I know alot about the TC's and CVA's because I lived them from their start and owned many models of both, plus started putting together a data base on them both many, many years go.   Most of it is buried in storage someplace, but I have some of it on hand.   It still has holes in it, new and rare discoveries still come up with the TC sidelocks now and then, but the CVA's are pretty cut and dry.   TC was easier for me as I was friends with two top dogs at TC, including the boss from the start over (and a designer of) the smoke poles.  With CVA I just knew an old timer there that would feed me what he could, and I owned a bunch of them.
 
The stock hen scratch referring to 1976 may or may not be from that year (folks do stuff like that to make things appear older.   But, your picture helps a lot... not clear enough to be certain on all points, but close.   Nothing like having it in hand IOW.  It does appear to be a CVA Kentucky.   There are "points" to confirm the vintage not clear enough to confirm with the picture, but it appears it could be a combination of 1975/1976 parts.  That was standard for them when they transitioned to a newer version of the same model.  So it kind of teeters between the 44 cal vintage and the early 45 cal vintage based on what I can see in parts.    Barrel length makes it earlier (unless it's been cut down); front sight, thimbles, rod are right for the '76 vintage.   The locks varied slightly, so I can't tell if its the early or Maslin lock.   When you get it back together measure the over all length of the assembled pistol (that may help as well).  New they sold retail for $40-$45 back then depending on who the dealer was.
 
Best I can offer without going over and finding the data base, and I'm not going to do that.   Have fun with it...
 
 
 
 

[JonnyReb]

 Ladobe i couldn't have expected any more if i walked into the CVA plant in about 1980 and ask the same questions. Don't let that database gather too much dust either, for the next century or two they'll be folks with these guns asking the same questions..and your one of the very few still talking about it. I thought about this for the first time as i was digging for info on the Mt. rifle and saw that the creator of the design had passed away and noone really seemed to know anymore the particulars.  Its a shame for that knowledge from only 30 years ago to be lost. It seems we know more about some of the early builders of the 18th century than we do of the 1970's importers and manufacturers, but i'm feeling fortunate to have had you respond to several of my posts with facts to learn from. And no better place to put it than online where supposedly people can find it way into the future. Many thanks for the info not only about this pistol but also about your Siber pistol and of course the Mt Rifle.

  I'll get the kentucky pistol back together tomorrow and will post the length, thanks Ladobe.  Jeff

[JonnyReb]

 15.5" in total length.


 

[Ladobe]

Jeff,
 
As one of those people who seldom sleeps (lucky if I average 2hrs per 24 hr day), who has been up all night as usual (it's some after 5AM here), who's eyes are working less efficient now than normal after reading most of the night and are not as good as they used to be anyway...
 
... when I just found this update and saw the added picture it threw me at first.   Somebody has been playing with the stock.   LOL
 
Thanks for all your thanks.   Its very nice to see there are still some people on-line who still appreciate attempts to help them.   Says a hellofalot about you.   
 
That OAL is actually from the earliest version of their Kentucky, so it may be a left over from that vintage used as I suggested they did do often when they upgraded a current model.   Also noticed is it does have the later, correct mid 70's style trigger.   Sometime else I didn't point out, just assumed was known, the brass star inlay is not factory but installed aftermarket by an owner. 
 
Last thought... please keep in mind that all of what I've posted re CVA is if we "assume" it is a CVA.   Not being marked as such, no serial number, the way the caliber is overstamped, not as much so but also the lack of proof marks all cloud the determination of exactly what it is.   Spanish made parts could have been consistent and sold to several companies, not just to CVA.   IOW a lot of Kentucky pistol knockoffs have been offered by a lot of different companies using Spanish made parts.   It could even be a lunch time special from CVA or any of the others.
 
Enjoy it for what it is and have fun with it.  Being a 45 it should be a pretty good shooter for you (all of my CVA and TC 45's have been, but none of them as accurate as the CVA MR).   
 
I'm outta here.... 
 
 
 

[bubba.50]

hey friend, awesome job on that stock. what did ya use for the stripin'?

[JonnyReb]

 Ladobe i appreciate you sharing all that information, now i hold some facts pertaining to the pistol that'll give something to talk about and will go with it should it pass on to someone else. Off topic, i spent hours last night reading your old posts on another site and indeed learned more about CVA than i'd have hoped to in a sitting, have lots more to read and am looking forward to it .

 HEY Bubba! Kind words my friend and if i didn't know you better i'd think you were making fun of me lol.
  I figured EVERYONE in the 70's did their artistic thing on their kit guns and since i didn't get to do it then, figured i'd try now. For a first effort i thought it looked pretty good but if i did it again i'd use a different technique. After browning the metal i stripped the stock and sanded it for good wood\metal fit, those home done escutcheons got inlay'd deeper and then i simply used birchwood casey walnut on a piece of garden twine. Wrapped it roun and round and immediately took it off. The lock side of the pistol was down as i was doing it so i did a better job on the other side. Once it dried i used 600grit. got it real smooth then finished over everthing with the linseed\turpentine\beeswax mix that PA turned me onto. Just really dried completely today and i'm gonna go shoot it this pm soon as the school nearby lets out. If i was gonna do it again i'd use 2 or 3 different sized cords and space the wide bars farther out. I thank you for the compliment on it.

[pastorp]

I agree it came out looking good. Thought you might a used a torch on it. 

Regards,

[JonnyReb]

 Hey thanks, i went with the water based stain because i can get it off pretty easy if it looked horrible. I tried the torch on Bubbas old .45 Mt Rifle ramrod after practicing on a piece of dowl rod, it turned out ok but i'd want some much smaller torch tips before i tried it on the stock. Almost like drawing with the flame then, instead of painting with it. I do like the idea of heating the wood to change its character. This stock on the CVA was so plain i figured doing nothing would be worst of all. Plus the faux striping covers two repairs to the foreend rather well. Ok, schools out, and i can shoot with lesser fear of swat teams assembling in my yard. Gonna wash a filthy German Shepherd and then try this thing out.  J

[bubba.50]

I was serious in my admiration. I've admired faux striped stocks on long rifles & henry leman trade rifles & such forever. thought about tryin' it on a cva hawken I had a while back. asked for tips/techniques for stripin' a stock over on the muzzleloading forum. the way them fellers carried on you'd'a thought I asked for instructions on how to make an origami frog out of the declaration of independence.

[pastorp]

I was serious too bubba. I liked it. The tourch lines I've seen we're never very even like Jeff's  came out.  they probably went balistic because they didn't consider it proper. But if its my gun I'll do what I want with it. Of course sometimes it costs ya when you sell it.

Regards,

[JonnyReb]

the way them fellers carried on you'd'a thought I asked for instructions on how to make an origami frog out of the declaration of independence.

 LOL . Charley i laughed so hard my dogs got to smilin and jumping around, they know a good one when i read it. Thats funny stuff.

  I researched striping a bit, read about Lemans 4 brush in one rig, pretty good idea, if you get the first hand drawn line straight, you just keep bumping over by 3 brush strokes and with a steady hand all the lines on the rifle follow suit. His artistic flair sure was different from the norm i guess but it looked good to me. Darned unique. I read alot about folks wrapping rope around their stocks and setting them on fire, your seriously wanting lines on your stock using this method and it seemed a bit too permanent to me, but i'm sure their are some beauties done this way. The twine and stain method took about 3 minutes and was easy on a pistol. A rifle would take a bit more finesse i think. Worth trying using stain though as its reversible with a bit of varnish remover.

 Byron just what you said crossed my mind as i did those stripes, and i figure a mans muzzleloader kinda was an obvious place to express his creativity, sorta like a car or house does now, most decorated the way they wanted too.

  Did go shoot the pistol, got 10 shots in before rain hit, worked out pretty good. I used hornady .433 and thin patches so it wasn't a super tight fit. Pyrodex 3f equivelant, and fired using 20gr. at a target 20 yards out. My first 5 shots were just to get a feel for the sights, which proved to point the barrel very low. With the full front blade above the rear V i shot 5 at a 2nd target, resulting in the group you see below. All shooting was off a rest and i know i have a lot of tweeking to do but i'm pretty satisfied with it. My last 3 shots i jumped to 30gr. of powder and i shot the 3 shot cluster you see in the pic. Could be blind luck or it may actually be a shooter, only more experimenting will tell. Either way, its fun to shoot and i really enjoyed the gun in a way i didn't my blackpowder 6 shooters. I like the simplicity. Cool about the sear adjustment screw to, it actually has a great trigger release. I chronied the 1st few shots using 20gr. and it was shooting 725fps +\-.  I'll wager the 30grs were putting me just north of 900fps. This is about 250ftlbs, kinda like a good many modern handgun power levels and plenty for small game, enough actually for close range whitetail. I'm gonna have to research out a nice holster\sheath pattern for it and start carrying it around out back as a 2nd shot during next muzzleloader season. Thanks ya'll, for reading and Ladobe, Bubba and Pastorp for the comments.  Jeff