Reb how is the underhammer shooting

[crossxsticks]

Reb how are you and your  new H&A underhammer  getting along ?   what cal ? and modle  ya get ? I been wating on you to post about it , given up and going to ask . 

[JonnyReb]

 Lol Thats cool Crossxsticks,  very cool of you to ask. You know i was dyin to talk about it but didn't wanna clutter up the forum with shameless gushing . It was coming though, promise you that. Been watching your underhammer postings with great interest too.

 So now i get to get part of my future posts out early
 I had one of these Numrich underhammers when i was 16, had it 25 years and never shot it once. Sold it and got into muzzleloaders more heavily a year or so ago and wanted it back ever since..

 So i posted and Jed sent me his "Buggy" model Numeric .arms 45.  It was one of his hunting rifles over the last 30 years and he and one family member had taken 7 deer with it. It came used but not abused, he took good care of it and its in good condition. Jed had a peep sight on it and had to cut into the forestock a bit to mount it. I decided to restore the rifle back near the way it came and so i got online and started searching for parts. I found the factory rear site, and the original metal buttplate. Also found a new forearm, factory for the heritage model, at Numrich arms website and got it and all new screws, nuts and bolts coming. I didn't find quite the sight i wanted for the front, and decided this was a good oportunity to try one of GBO advertiser "skinner sights" blades. I bought one of their brass front blades and can shape it to form if i need to. Now i never did shoot it, but i'm sure theres gonna be no issues there.

  Once all the parts show up, i'll strip the rifle down and may brown the metal, but may just go back with hot blue, not sure yet. I'll refinish the stocks after i reshape the heritage stock to a sliver of its former self, cut the buttplate in and figure out the barrel\forearm pins.. This wood is walnut so i'll use the beeswax\turpentine\linseed mix to finish it out to a nice satin. Slide the new sights in and then i'll try her out.  Its such a tiny rifle, can't weight much over 5lbs and maybe 35" long, i know i'm going to do a lot of hunting with it in the future.

 Crossxsticks i appreciate your post, promise to post all about it once i get it done, i'll post some pics of my progress once i get started. Will be watching for your underhammer projects as they come too .  Jeff

 

[Winter Hawk]

My first M/L rifle was a H&A Heritage in .45.  Got it in 1968, and sold it off about 10 years ago.  (foolish me!)  I shot plenty of bunnies with it up around Fairbanks, AK.  Some things to watch out for, and I speak from experience:  Wear a long sleeve shirt when shooting it.  The hammer can and will be pushed off the nipple and then you get a nice tattoo on your forearm.  Don't get that forearm (the gun's not yours) too thin.  Mine from the factory was thin and split lengthwise several times.  After epoxying the splits I bought a new one which came larger than the original and I had no more problems.  The stock on mine split at the wrist.  I fixed it by epoxying the split and then wrapping the wrist with copper wire.  I put fancy brass tacks to hold the wire ends and it gave it a unique look.  And the front ferrule for the ramrod broke off (it was pinned in place) and a friend silver soldered it back in place.  That was nice but he got the barrel too hot and it always had a rough spot in the bore there afterwards.  One more problem I had was that the nipple blew out because the barrel was so thin where it screws in.  Stripped the threads out and I had to go to a larger thread diameter nipple.

On the other hand, the underhammer is the ultimate KISS  principle rifle.  I am sure you will enjoy it.  Mine was a hoot to shoot!

-WH-

[crossxsticks]

Reb , I am in the same boat your in  wating on parts,    underlugs and  ramrod pipe   if i ever get it done i show ya a pic.   

[JonnyReb]

 Thats all very interesting Hawk, as thats about exactly the path Jed took with this one. The nipple has been upsized and retapped. There is a brass "socket" around the wood on the upper pistol grip, either to prevent a split or to hold it together, not sure yet. The ferrule is holding but i'll be looking for it to fail.. I agree though, the basic action is just flawless and as simple as it possibly could get i think. The action is art, more or less.
 I'll watch not to get too thin on my forearm as i don't want any splits but if any showed up, Jed won't mind as my check cashed . it is mine, unless you mean that like,  we are only stewards of our rifles for our own lifetime, then we pass em on. Which is true as we all own guns from folks no longer with us. In which case you'd be right, it's not mine i'm just leasing it for awhile . Can't wait to get my arm burned by it, and i do thank you for that warning. 

  Where'd you order from Crossx?

[crossxsticks]

track of the wolf,  but  i aint sure it will work after i get it      i may have to bend my own for this 10 ga barrel .   

[JonnyReb]

 I look forward to seeing what you create outta your pile of parts, thought i'd add a pic of the rifle, although the sights are off it. Gonna be a deer huntin machine!  (again)

[jedman]

 JonnyReb,    Howdy !  I was just looking at the whole index of topics and seen the word underhammer so I had to see what the topic was about.  Just a little more information on the buggy rifle, I bought it used at a gunshow some 30 years ago and the rifle had that brass bushing fitted on the buttstock. The rear sight was a flip up type with a movable notch with a locking screw ( probably from another gun ) and the front sight was a standard blade type.   The plastic buttplate I always thought was the original as I have seen other H & A rifles with the same buttplate ?  Never seen one with a steel buttplate.
  It was always quite accurate as sometimes while deer hunting and not seeing any ( deer ) I would shoot squirrels with it , head shots only when I had the whole tree trunk as a backstop. Also shot many varmints and a few rabbits with it. I was at the range shooting yesterday and a friend had me try a new rifle of his with peep sights and I cant see them clearly anymore , nowadays I really need a scope. Im glad that the rifle will get used again with you owning it as I had told you I haven't used it in 7 or 8 years now so it needed a new owner.        jedman

[JonnyReb]

 Hey Jed! Figured you might stop by and glad you did. For whatever reason, i really like knowing the history of my favorite rifles and it may actually be the history behind them that makes them my favorites.
 Is the kinda stuff i pass on with them when they go to, if theres anything to tell. Just curious if you took those deer with rb's?

  I know my old underhammer had a brass buttplate, but it coulda been added on after it left the factory. There wasn't a picture of the one i ordered but hopefully i'll see it come soon and see what we think of it. I'm gonna try to put a lot of thought into the end result as i'm gonna be carrying it till my eyes won't make sense of the sights myself.  I can hopefully give it another good 30. too.     Jeff
 

[Winter Hawk]

My Heritage model came with a curved brass buttplate.  It also had a cap box on the off side, an open rear sight on the barrel and a neat peep which screwed into the action.  What was neat about it was that it had three apertures on a little spring-loaded plate and you just moved the plate up or down to choose which one (small, medium & large) you wanted.  The barrel was 32" IIRC and had longitudinal grooves on the top flat.

-WH-

[jedman]

 JonnyReb,    Out of the 7 deer that rifle has taken while I owned it 6 were with RB's and 1 with a hollow based conical.    I tried the conical just because I had them, the deer that was shot with that bullet showed the worst performance.  It was shot at very close range from a tree stand and the deer had a slight quartering  angle facing  me. At the shot the deer hardly flinched but I could see the entrance hole right behind the front shoulder and blood was spurting out so I just watched and the deer walked like a drunk about 30 yards and laid down with its head up.   I waited a minute then reloaded the rifle, about the time I was going to shoot it a second time it's head went down and it was dead.  Upon gutting the small buck I seen that the bullet must have changed its course after hitting near the shoulder it went downwards and hit the liver.  The deer was dead within 3-4 mins. after I shot it but feel the RB's do a better job of killing.  Out of the other 6 shot with RB's only 1 was ever recovered and it was a small 7 pt. and the deer dropped on the spot and kicked a little but after skinning the ball was found just under the hide near the offside shoulder and was about the size of a nickel, it did a good job the rest were all double lung shots except the head shot  that my friends cousin made on a doe at 10  yards.   I feel that pure lead soft RB's to be great killers of deer sized animals if shot at somewhat closer ranges where the ball expands nicely but they do shed velocity quickly.  Out of dozens of muzzleloader kills that I have seen between myself and others the HP pistol bullets have proved to be the most problem as I have seen many of them fragment at close range and usually leads to a lot of tracking and second guessing about the shot.  Take a responsible shot with the RB's and you will be rewarded.       jedman

[JonnyReb]

 Winter Hawk i like the idea of that peep and i see where it would screw right on. I can make one easy enough i guess and may do just that. I'd make it a large aperature, almost a ghost ring i think. Good idea. My original. underhammer had a brass buttplate but no patchbox. Did have a weird squggly little brass tail that came off the back of the hammerspring\triggergard.

  Good stuff Jed, i keep reading about the potent properties a pure lead rb possess and will use nothing in it but those. I was one of those who previously used those pistol bullets in a s-b-t. Did work very impressively as you've mentioned and so rb's it'll be. Enjoyed the stories too

  Numrich sent the new forearm today and the rear sight. The buttplate didn't come but but will eventually i guess. The rear sight is obviously a copy of the original and is sheet metal, even the 3\8" base. I donKt think iKll use it. The forearm is nice walnut and is basically the exact forearm thats on the rifle now. Came finished and ready to go except, as i feared the pins arn't drilled so i'll have to take Necchi's advice, as well as another guy who answered my questions about this on the Traditional ML forum. I'll be building a makeshift Jig to hold the barrel under a drill press and make sure the bit passes through the pin holes perfectly. then slip on the forearm and run that bit through the forearm and hopefully perfectly through the pin hole. Should work well and i was glad for the advice.  She gonna be a looker but still i can't decide, blued or browned?

[crossxsticks]

ok ,  here it is all un done      still like ramrod stuff and  havent decided wheather or not to pin the fore arm on or just leave it off  and  it needs  brown also.  and  a  limbsaver  recoil pad 

[JonnyReb]

  and  a  limbsaver  recoil pad

  lol No doubt!
  Hey looking good really dig that barel against the round receiver.. and yeah shes gonna kick a bit

[crossxsticks]

i have a traditional looking stock made like one on yours work ok for normal hunting  but it had to much drop for me to shoot trap so i modfied this  H&R shotgun stock  to  fit   lot higher  stock.  Reb  when you get your for end off  take a pic so i can see how it is fixed to barrel please
   

[JonnyReb]

 i've had it off and its a sceery proposition. They have two pin holes drilled through the barrel right under the bore. I'm no gunsmith but i couldn't imagine trying to replicate those holes on a new barrel. Will get a pic up tonight after work.  J

[crossxsticks]

i've had it off and its a sceery proposition. They have two pin holes drilled through the barrel right under the bore. I'm no gunsmith but i couldn't imagine trying to replicate those holes on a new barrel. Will get a pic up tonight after work.  J

thats ok wont need a pic ,  I found out to day, a friend i went visited had a buggy gun he put together several years ago  a  Kit gun ,  yep  there was 2 small holes through bottom of barrel with pins  that holds forearm on,  i  cant do dat   with my shotgun barrel     his kit buggy rifle  45 cal had a brass but plate  kind like on a hawkins and small round patch box. 

[JonnyReb]

 Thats the buttplate i want, bet i can find one similar at TOW or Jedediah Starr.
  Glad you got to see one in person and wonder how your gonna mount yours arn't challenges fun?  

  Heres the pic anyway so everyone else can see the design.

[jedman]

  JonnyReb,    Drilling them holes in the new forend is going to be a challenge     Since you said the new forend is just like the original, I would take some measurements and see if the barrel channel on the new one is cut at the same depth as the old one and if not use a shim on one or the other so you get both of them lying side by side on the topside flat surface to match.
  Once you have them in a perfect side by side position drill thru the original forend holes then into the new forend. Im not sure if a drill that small in diameter will be long enough to go thru both forends being side by side but that would put them at the proper height and spacing.   I would first take the drill bit and push it thru the original holes and view it from the side to be sure there square 90 degrees to the side flats first as if there is any angle it would cause a problem.
 Both forends need to be lined up at the same height and center to center at both ends to match drill it properly.
  I was a toolmaker by trade when I was still working and that's the way we made a replacement part with drilled holes that had to be drilled in the same exact spot on the new part , its called match drilling.  GOOD LUCK !
    jedman

[JonnyReb]

  Hey Jed! I see just what your talking about and do think i'll try that as opposed to making a jig on the drill press to hold the barrel, lining up the bit with the barrel holes, then slipping on the wood and drilling. Either way would work but i do think i'm gonna try "match drilling" as the 2 forearms do seem to have depth within a very close tolerance to each other. If i underdrill by a hair i can inlet the channel a tad deeper. If i went the other way i could add some acraglas and bed the barrel into the stock. I feel pretty good about trying. I thank you for the advice and will take it.

 Hey while your here,  those two holes that held the williams peep need to be filled in, and i wondered if you had any idea what size those two screws are? They appear to be slightly different and i actually went to several specialty fastener shops locally and ask them to match the thread size. None of them were able to figure out the thread size and so i figured i'd ask you. 

 Also, just curious if you ever removed the barrel from the action? The pins looked pristine on the ends so i figured not but wondered. Am really glad you found this thread and jumped in .  Jeff

[crossxsticks]

Reb,   Brownells    is where i find some gun screws and  screws to plug tapped holes with .  i cant imagine  the replacement forearm being the same  (exact)  channel cut at the old one. sure hope it is  ..   doing like Jed said to match holes  and then if channel cut is off  could use filler or may have to cut out more wood  to  make it fit barrel,  the worst would be ordering another forearm       the pin punches out to remove the barrel on the originals  the deer creek model has  3 set screws   thoughts unless necessary I don't think I would remove the breech plug , or the pin .     The brass butt plate , I think  has a lot more curve to it like on a Hawkins or Lyman than the plastic butt plate, bet they just came on kit guns and the plastic like one in your picture  is  i am thinking the one that came on your gun because if you use the brass you will have to redesign or cut out wood to make it fit.   and the kit gun i looked at yesterday had a band on end of stock also but it was steel or nickle  not brass      

[JonnyReb]

 All good info and i'm in agreeance on every bit. Glad you started this thread up CrossX, and i thank you.

 For whatever reason i'm really gonna take my time on this rifle, will probably post here and there on progress till sometime late summer and i hope it'll be ready for a month or so of practice before season starts.

 I'm very surprised to say the new forearm from Numrich is identical in barel channel depth, i'd not be surprised to find they were cut from the same machine. The walnut's grain matches almost perfectly too and the only real difference is the new stocks shade is lighter than the original, but the color is about the same. I think oiling the new woods stained finish should bring it too an almost exact match of the originals. Almost makes me want to order a backup piece just to set it away for future need. Its neat that some factory parts are still available for these rifles.  Jeff

[jedman]

  JonnyReb,    I don't have any idea what size the screws or thread was that fastened the peep sight.   Why not use the original screws as plugs for the holes.  If you are going to reblue or brown the barrel I would screw the screws back in the tapped holes and tighten them until they are bottomed out tight then cut the heads off and file the stubs flush with the barrel.   If you take a round punch  about the size of the screws or a little bigger peen the cut off screw stubs before filing them and they will be nearly invisible when blued or browned.
 I never removed the pins or the barrel on that rifle, never did much to it but shoot it and clean it. 
  One other idea if you do the match drilling route, after you drill the first hole thru the new forend  take another drill bit or even one of the brass pins and pin the two forends together so the second hole has to be in the right place because they cannot move or shift when they are pinned together.  Take your time and Im sure you will get it right.       
           Jed

[JonnyReb]

  Jed i was thinking that once i matched the 2 forearms up and sent the bit through the lead in side, i could then mount the wood on the barrel and drill right through the barrels pin lug to center my far side pin hole? Either way i'm feeling pretty good about this. Funny because at first, it seemed about impossible. :thumbsup:

  So far as the peep, i sold it and i'm sending the original screws off with it on the new owners request. I tried everywhere to match them locally with no results but i've now found several places online who do sell williams OEM mounting screws so i can do exactly what you said about filing them off and finishing over them. Im also considering retapping both holes to a more common thread size and not having to worry about ordering any more parts. See any issues with just retapping those threads?   Jeff

 

[jedman]

  JonnyReb,  Have you tried a common 6 x 32 thread  screw,  I would think that's the most likely size as I didn't have a 6 x 48 tap until later ?           Jed

[JonnyReb]

  JonnyReb,  Have you tried a common 6 x 32 thread  screw,  I would think that's the most likely size as I didn't have a 6 x 48 tap until later ?           Jed

  No Sir i don't believe i have. I absolutely will though, before doing anything further.
  I appreciate you continuing to follow this thread!    Jeff

[Winter Hawk]

That squigly brass part behind the trigger guard you mentioned helps to increase its spring tension on the hammer.  It was supposed to make for more consistent ignition.  It also made a pistol grip from the straight grip as found in many M/L guns.

When I replaced the forearm of mine, I didn't have access to a drill press or anything fancy.  I just lined it up with the broken pieces of the old forearm and drilled down through the original holes.  It worked out just fine.

-WH-

[JonnyReb]

 Now THAT is comforting ,  and is what i'll attempt soon. Did get the rest of the parts in from Numrich, and can highly recommend them. Am pleased to hear that the "sqiggley thing" behind the trigger was factory and i guess my original rifle came that way. Will start stripping this rifle down sometime this week. Thanks guys, for all the continued comments.  J

[crossxsticks]

That squigly brass part behind the trigger guard you mentioned helps to increase its spring tension on the hammer.  It was supposed to make for more consistent ignition.  It also made a pistol grip from the straight grip as found in many M/L guns.

When I replaced the forearm of mine, I didn't have access to a drill press or anything fancy.  I just lined it up with the broken pieces of the old forearm and drilled down through the original holes.  It worked out just fine.

-WH-

  I don't under stand , but thats not unusual for me     any one got a picture of a squigly

waiting on mail man to bring  H&A pistol 

[JonnyReb]

   CONGRATS! been watching one of those underhammer pistols myself, neat looking little gun. Will be waiting to hear what you think of yours.

  I don't have a picture of the "sqiggley", but remember it to be a 4" long x 1/2" wide strip of brass with 2 or 3 20 degree bends in it, fastened right behind the triggerguard to give a little more to hold on to. Doubt i'll easily find one online but it could be fabricated pretty simply.