Author Topic: ATV upgrades  (Read 2928 times)

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Offline Dave in WV

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ATV upgrades
« on: June 04, 2013, 03:41:11 PM »
I ordered an after market high performance radiator for my Grizzly 660. I've had fuel system related problems caused by engine compartment heat. I haven't over temped the engine but I've had vapor lock problems and boiled the gas in the tank once. These are known 660 problems. The shrouded fan in the kit moves twice as much air as OEM and the radiator is a 3 pass compared to a single pass OEM. I ordered a HID light kit with 6000k bulbs. I'm having my mechanic look into installing the next size larger pilot jet for cold weather starts since I use my ATV more in cold weather.
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Offline Ranger99

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 05:38:17 PM »
that sounds like a lot of
trouble and expense.
is it out of warranty that the
dealer won't cover repairs?
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Offline Old Syko

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 01:55:55 AM »
Dave good luck with a new radiator but I wouldn't get my hopes up too high.  The most effective mod seems to be the check valve mod and cutting vents in the side covers.  I know of one guy who after the usual mods, added 2 cooling fans from an old computer that draw little power, but aimed at the fuel tank and exhaust do wonders. 


As far as lighting, look into the LED bars now available.  My son put a bar on the front of his truck that has 40 LEDs, pulls less than 9 amps, and will all but burn out your retinas.  A much smaller light bar on an ATV would be very impressive.  They come in many different sizes from someplace on ebay.  Have to be careful with add ons on an ATV though since none of them have a lot of extra power available.

Offline Dave in WV

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2013, 07:02:26 AM »
Ranger99, my Grizzly is a '04 model.

Old Syko, I did open the side panels. What's the check valve mod? On the Grizzy Central forum a member put the same radiator kit on his 660 and the coolant temp never goes above 150º.



 
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Offline Old Syko

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2013, 02:06:33 PM »

To never exceed 150 degrees isn't good.  I would have to question where he is taking his readings from since that is below the temp needed to open the thermostat is it not?  I'm afraid I would have to call BS on that one.


Gas check valve info with pics even.http://www.nyrocatv.com/techtip.cgi?viewtopic=331

Offline Dave in WV

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2013, 05:53:51 PM »
I went back and read the reply again and that's not where I saw the 150º. 
Here's the radiator I ordered.   http://www.highlifter.com/p-994-high-lifter-radiator-kit-see-notes.aspx
 
Several folks suggested Engine Ice or Water Wetter but after reading several tests it seems while they do help the claim of lowering engine temps up to 30º is not true. 10º max is about the norm.
 
This is from Grizzly Riders forum. It's for a 700 not a 660 and I don't know how accurate the info is.
 
The thermostat should start to open at 129ºF
The thermostat should be in the full open position at 158ºF
Normal operating temperature is around 160º- 200ºF
The "Over Temp" light will come on at 233.6ºF

 
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Offline Old Syko

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2013, 02:56:31 AM »
Nothing wrong with more radiator since almost all ATVs are designed with minimal cooling capacity and charging systems.  You're going to find the ideal sweet spot for running temps is around 190 to 195 since that is where the engine was designed to perform its best.  Due to the way we treat these things, it's not feasible to maintain that optimum temperature.  To never achieve that temp would mean having to completely redo all fuel and ignition systems to compensate.  Even with the bigger radiator you will achieve optimum running temps.  It will just take longer to warm up to that state.


Be careful of water wetter and other similar products.  They've been known to damage some cooling system components.  My son has used it in his rock buggy for a long time but the only non metallic components he has are the water pump seals.  Our ATVs have many other components to consider.  I won't use the stuff myself.   

Offline Dave in WV

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2013, 06:43:38 AM »
Thanks. I didn't want to try the coolant additives. More snake oil than actual help IMO. The higher CFM output  fan interested me to push the hot air out of the engine area as well as a larger radiator. I use my ATV for yard work and other slow riding uses. I don't have any problems when riding at 15 mph. Idling a lot or slow speeds are my problem. I don't mud so a clogged radiator won't be a problem.
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Offline Old Syko

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2013, 07:02:17 AM »
Dave you've hit on the key to this particular mod.  Yes a higher volume radiator is a change for the better but the higher volume fan is major.  As I said before, they design these things allowing for little leeway in every respect, as to how they will be used.  I think you'll be a happy camper with the new rad.

Offline Dave in WV

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2013, 06:40:16 AM »
The radiator kit arrived yesterday. I'm waiting on the HID light kit to arrive since the grille and the front bumper have to be removed. Do it all at one time. The brighter lights from the stock headlight area will work best overall for me. I looked into the LED light bars and square housed lights. If I did mount a LED light I would most likely mount it on the center of the handle bar.
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
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Offline Old Syko

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2013, 09:37:10 AM »
Keep an eye on the HIDs if you run them for long periods.  The heat tends to get things sagging pretty fast.  I found it better all the way around if I just go in the house after dark.   ;) :D

Offline Dave in WV

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2013, 10:34:51 AM »
Thanks.
 
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
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Offline hillbill

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2013, 01:38:49 PM »
doesnt sound like dave rides his bike all that hard really. its a dam shame you cant buy a atv that costs as much as a good used truck and use it for its intended purpose without modifying it.
 
ive had several older honda, polaris and yamaha atvs that you could not ride hard enuf to tear them up.all of them from the 80's and 90's.they all ran better when i sold them than when i got them. ill stick with my dirt bike for now.

Offline Dave in WV

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2013, 02:09:52 PM »
You're correct, I don't ride mine hard but I do work it. The carb is between the engine and exhaust pipe so it's "set up" for vapor locking and boiling the gas in the bowl. What were they thinking?
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Offline hillbill

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2013, 02:51:21 PM »
You're correct, I don't ride mine hard but I do work it. The carb is between the engine and exhaust pipe so it's "set up" for vapor locking and boiling the gas in the bowl. What were they thinking?

 
 ya know we went for years with the engine in 4 stroke atvs just sitting out there in the wind. no water cooling or special treatment.they worked just fine. now yu have hi tech water cooling and they over heat?really? i think some engineers need their butts spanked.  when yu take a slow moving vehicle and shroud up the engine so it cant breathe, regardless of how its cooled its going to over heat. and then run the exhaust toooo close to the carb?really? how hard is it all to figure out?
 
 i apoligize for my rant.i work on a lot of stuff and just get sik of modifying stuff that should of been correct from the factory.yuall go on talking im goin in for a beer!

Offline Old Syko

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2013, 04:16:05 PM »
Hillbill will get no argument from me.  It's not just ATVs though.  I literally doubled the horsepower on my Prairie for less than $500 and some of my time.  My motorcycle has received a similar treatment.  Just seems to be the way of things anymore.  Then again, I'm never happy with leaving things alone.   8)   

Offline Dave in WV

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2013, 04:29:23 PM »
Water cooled engines started coming in when larger engines were used for "working" ATVs. Sure most ATVs are used for fun riding but the idea behind the bigger machines was for work around farms, ranches, and camps. The slow riding while towing/pulling/hauling/plowing was the reason water cooled engines were used.
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
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Offline Dave in WV

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2013, 05:50:51 AM »
After looking at my ATV I stated the carb is between the exhaust and engine in error. The carb is close to the exhaust pipe but is at the rear of the engine. This thread got me thinking and I always wondered why my next door neighbor never had the heat problem with his Grizzly 660? Maybe because I have a Benz exhaust silencer on mine? It adds a little back pressure. I researched on the internet and haven't come up with them causing any problems other than at higher altitudes. Hopefully my mod will cure the problem.
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
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Offline Dave in WV

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2013, 12:15:50 PM »
I got the radiator installed today. The fan definitely moves the air! With the side panels opened up the air really moves the heat out. The fan seems to come on as much as it did before but like I posted before I ride slow. I started on the HID lights but the wrong adapter was with the kit. DDM is sending another one. I've got the bulbs installed so I only need to pull the rack and hood again. Time will tell on the radiator but IMO it's what I needed.
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
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Offline Ranger99

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2013, 02:08:44 PM »
you should be able to find some
exhaust header wrap from summit
racing or somebody like that and
wrap the exhaust that's inside to help
keep the temps down.
you might even have to fabricate some kind of
fresh air duct for your radiator.
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Offline Dave in WV

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2013, 02:21:22 PM »
Thanks Ranger99. I looked into the wrap. I've been reading pros and cons. I'm thinking about a heat blanket between the exhaust pipe and the carb.
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
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Offline Ranger99

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2013, 02:31:18 PM »
anything to fend the exhaust
heat away from the fuel system is good.
we used that header wrap on our drag
cars and roundy-round cars.
getting a carb heat soaked really kicks
performance in the teeth because part
of the air-fuel mixture's job is helping
to cool cylinders, and the loss of that
minute bit of cooling helps to burden
the cooling system of any vehicle.


i've always used honda products, so i
don't know about what you have, but
if it's a 4-stroke engine, an auxiliary
add-on oil cooler sure wouldn't hurt
even if you weren't already having
overheating issues. something to look at.


good luck
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Offline Bugflipper

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2013, 10:42:35 PM »
If 2002 or 2003 they had a recall on them and yamaha has a heat kit.   www.grizzlyowners.com/66-general/23-grizzly-recall.html
If not you can probably still get some ideas from the recall.
Ethanol gas makes engines run hotter. If you can find it just use pure gas. That can be good for 15 to 30 degrees alone in a smaller engine. A fuel tank insulator could just be the high heat under hood type insulator that has a foil face to it. This could be used on the fuel line over some pipe insulation as well. A heat shield could be made to go over the top of the motor with the insulation on it as well. Mine is just a piece of aluminum roofing.
If your model has the fake vents above the radiator in the front they can be cut out to allow airflow to hit the heads and keep hot air flushed out better from rising up to the carb and fuel tank. Cleaning the finned portion of your head with an aluminum polish and getting the oxidation off will also help a little.

Not knocking anyone's oppinion but I would stay away from the header wrap if you worry about rust. On my street rods I powder coat the header, wrap them and seal the outside. Even though they don't stay out in the weather they still rust over time. They don't cross creeks or get water slung on them all the time or mud caked to them to hold moisture. Just the good Ol' AL humidity does it. The wrap is perfect for wicking humidity to the steel. I think that maybe the natural process of cold wanting to go to hot accelerates the humidity sucked into the wrap when the headers are just about cooled off.

I do run wrap on the pipe and it is very rusty. Every year I take it off, paint it and the muffler and reapply. I don't ever try to get the rust off because I figure good metal will go with the bad and it will be sooner that I'll have to repair the pipe. I've had it on 10 years and haven't had to patch the pipe yet. Mine is the smaller kodiak. My problem was it would burn your legs on a hot summer day if you were just tooling around. The main jet in my carb had 3 slots that an e clip goes into to adjust your off idle mixture to about 1/2 throttle. I moved it from the top position to the bottom to increase the amount of fuel on the low end making it richer and in turn cooler. It also gave a little more umph off the line to power the big tires in mud as well as yanking on logs to get them started for skidding. I also have the idle adjusted a little rich since low speed and idle was where your legs would start burning through the covers. I insulated them a little better as well.
Molon labe

Offline Old Syko

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2013, 12:21:55 AM »
Header wrap does bad things to modern water cooled ATV engines.  In blocking the heat from escaping to cause fuel system problems, it increases head temps dramatically.  The old 2 strokers like the Quadzillas benefit from the wrap in cooler temperatures but even they couldn't survive when ambient temps rose.


When looking for ways to dissipate heat, one must remember it is just as important to increase the volume of air that is allowed to exhaust from an enclosure as it is to increase the amount of air allowed in.  Air cooled airplane engines are a good example as some of them have cowlings with flaps that open and close to control how much air is allowed away from the engine. 

Offline Dave in WV

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2013, 02:28:54 AM »
Bugflipper, thanks for the link. My 660 is an '04 and came with the heat mods. I use ethanol free gas. I don't "mud" and the radiator is always clean.
Old Syco, opening the side panels really lets the air out. When I get the carb cleaned and overhauled I'm going up one size in the pilot jet. It should help cold weather starts and run a little cooler since a richer fuel mixture will run cooler. I noticed the clutch cover wasn't as hot yesterday. Before the radiator install I wore shoes/boots that covered my ankles when riding two up because if I touched the cover without something more than a sock it was painful. It's uncomfortable now but not painful.
 
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Offline hillbill

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2013, 03:06:40 PM »
Bugflipper, thanks for the link. My 660 is an '04 and came with the heat mods. I use ethanol free gas. I don't "mud" and the radiator is always clean.
Old Syco, opening the side panels really lets the air out. When I get the carb cleaned and overhauled I'm going up one size in the pilot jet. It should help cold weather starts and run a little cooler since a richer fuel mixture will run cooler. I noticed the clutch cover wasn't as hot yesterday. Before the radiator install I wore shoes/boots that covered my ankles when riding two up because if I touched the cover without something more than a sock it was painful. It's uncomfortable now but not painful.

im glad your makin progress.jetting can help for sure when you get it rite.look at sum things online about how to read your spark plugs.
 
there are some synthetic oils that claim a reduced engine temp.lower friction and all.idk ive not used them.if you can gain a few degrees here and there you mite just get the problem solved!

Offline Dave in WV

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2013, 04:06:51 PM »
Thanks. I use Mobil 1 10w-40 motorcycle oil.
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2013, 01:43:09 AM »
actually if your jetted for it alchol in gas will make you run cooler. When i used to fool with my old grand national buick I could run about 5 more lbs of boost with alcohol injection. I kind of kept up on what the latest is for these cars and most guys are running ethonal gas in them now for the same reason. Alcohol acts like octain in that it slows down combustion to prevent detonation and this drasticaly reduces heat in the combustion chamber. But keep in mind that an alcohol mix will also burn leaner which will give you the opposite effect if you dont go with an increase in jet size or tune for it.
Bugflipper, thanks for the link. My 660 is an '04 and came with the heat mods. I use ethanol free gas. I don't "mud" and the radiator is always clean.
Old Syco, opening the side panels really lets the air out. When I get the carb cleaned and overhauled I'm going up one size in the pilot jet. It should help cold weather starts and run a little cooler since a richer fuel mixture will run cooler. I noticed the clutch cover wasn't as hot yesterday. Before the radiator install I wore shoes/boots that covered my ankles when riding two up because if I touched the cover without something more than a sock it was painful. It's uncomfortable now but not painful.
blue lives matter

Offline Old Syko

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2013, 02:07:20 AM »
On the subject of jets, just a little fyi.  Not all jets are numbered the same.  It seems practically every different brand has their own system.  Here is a chart comparing two popular brands.


I won't get into the subject of jetting and alcohol since it is a subject fraught with bad information.  Since Dave is running a quiet pipe, jetting is going to be a tough, if not impossible issue, at least without a dyno.


 

Kehin/Dynojet Equivalency chart
Kehin Jets -------- DJ Jets

Num / Thou. ------- Num / Thou.
92.5 / 0.035 ------- 92 / 0.035
95 / 0.036 ------- 94 / 0.036
97.5 / 0.037 ------- 96 / 0.037
100 / 0.038 ------- 98 / 0.038
102.5 / 0.039 ------- 100 / 0.039
105 / 0.040 ------- 102 / 0.040
107.5 / 0.041 ------- 104 / 0.041
110 / 0.042 ------- 106 / 0.042
112.5 / 0.043 ------- 108 / 0.043
115 / 0.044 ------- 110 / 0.044
117.5 / 0.045 ------- 112 / 0.045
120 / 0.046 ------- 114 / 0.046
122.5 / 0.047 ------- 116 / 0.047
125 / 0.048 ------- 118 / 0.048
130 / 0.050 ------- 122 / 0.050
132.5 / 0.051 ------- 124 / 0.051
135 / 0.052 ------- 126 / 0.052
137.5 / 0.053 ------- 128 / 0.053
140 / 0.054 ------- 130 / 0.054
142.5 / 0.055 ------- 132 / 0.055
145 / 0.056 ------- 134 / 0.056
147.5 / 0.057 ------- 136 / 0.057
150 / 0.058 ------- 138 / 0.058
152.5 / 0.059 ------- 140 / 0.059

Offline Dave in WV

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Re: ATV upgrades
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2013, 04:40:07 AM »
I'm running ethanol free gas that has an octane rating of 90. I use it in all of my small engines. I add Seafoam to the gas.
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
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