Author Topic: Caveat Emptor  (Read 1551 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345

Offline BoomLover

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
  • Gender: Male
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2013, 07:43:55 PM »
Putting 2 + 2 together, understanding what you are saying...is this item not what it is advertized to be? Just wonderin'...BoomLover
"Beware the Enemy With-in, for these are perilous times! Those who promise to protect and defend our Constitution, but do neither, should be evicted from public office in disgrace!

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2013, 12:40:41 AM »
I've seen many Naval Co. Model F-B and own one as well.  All of those I've seen and inspected, which I'm were are original, have a series of marks on the muzzle face including the four-bladed "propeller" (USCG or Maritime Admin? inspection or proof mark?) and the seller does not mention such marks.  In addition, the carriages of all the originals I've seen were welded steel and had a machined steel pivot pin as the primary connection between the barrel and carriage.  Seller admits the elevation-setting pin is not original but this is the very least of this item's issues.
 
You notice in the seller's photos, not one shows the muzzle face from anything but a 90-degree side view, so it is impossible to check for markings in the photos.  Happenstance?  I don't think so. 
Seller says:  [quoteThe friction primer system is intact and all original (the tread is also free and greased on both parts). ]  Well, well, that's interesting.  The model F-B is relatively recent and came along many years after ALL U.S.-made L.T. guns began being made with percussion firing locks using .32 S&W (rimmed, not rimless) blackpowder blanks.  The "friction primer system" if that's really what it is, is not anything original to a real Naval Co. Model F-B.

Many L.T. gun owners like to shoot their guns with original or same-as-original 17-pound projectiles and coiled lines.  I've made at least one video showing some of them doing that.  If this piece gets into the hands of one of those shooters, disaster could easily result since the fakes are made with the cheapest yellow metal the fakers can find, which will not have anything near the tensile strength required for a line gun firing 17-pound projectiles.
 
If I get time I'll ask the seller what if any marks are on the muzzle and I'll betcha there either aren't any or he won't answer.  Also, presence of the muzzle marks does not ensure authenticity since I've seen at least one "bronze" L.T. gun which was a fake but had proper-looking muzzle marks applied.  That particular one was a copy of the Galbraith bronze gun.

If in doubt, one other thing to check on a "bronze" L.T. gun is to look down the bore with a good flashlight such as a maglight or diode light.  The bores on original bronze L.T. guns are "perfectly smooth" and perfectly cylindrical; the bores of fakes may show flaws or roughness, particularly toward the rear of the bore.
 
It sure seems to me that this is a fake and that the seller knows it is, ALTHOUGH of course for good legal reasons I am not stating as a fact that the seller is a crook, you should use your own judgment on that.  But I hope if someone gets hurt, and I really hope no one does, that this post is still here at the time of the investigation as it will give those on the injured party's side a lot of help if they sue the seller for knowingly selling defective goods..
 

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2013, 01:07:37 AM »
I just sent this question thru the website's "ask seller a question" form: 
Quote

Hi, I'm interested, but would like to know if there are any markings on the
muzzle face of the cannon's barrel?  Please let me know asap.

 
Thanks!

 
John

Offline Zulu

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2477
  • Honor is a gift a man gives himself.
    • Wood & Ironworks
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2013, 01:45:43 AM »
John,
The photos show two pictures of the muzzle face. :-\
Zulu
Zulu's website
www.jmelledge.com

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2013, 07:19:58 AM »
Thx, didn't see them at all.  I only have the small screen while sitting here at the gun show and I can't see any marks.  But it looks like it was cast with no sinking head and one side of muzzle has sunk.  Am I seeing that rignt?

The muzzles of all the authentic L.T. guns I"ve seen are perfectly flat, machined that way.  The rough look of the muzzle alone is enuf to convince me the item isn't right.  Plus his patina looks fake. 

Offline GLS

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 125
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2013, 08:22:59 AM »
Up close look at the muzzle looks like the bore has a thin liner.  Would that be correct?

Offline dominick

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1367
  • Gender: Male
    • Black Powder Cannons & Mortars
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2013, 08:33:03 AM »
That looks like a Sculler or Steward style base with a Naval Co. style barrel.  ???  ?

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2013, 09:43:28 AM »
Quote
thin liner

Hard to tell exactly what i'm looking at there but it could be a "pipe cored' cannon.

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2013, 11:22:00 AM »
     None of the originals that I have seen had a liner, just solid bronze and all had machined muzzle faces.  John, do you know what pattern of wooden pins the flaking boxes had?  Was it a standard quincunx pattern with adjacent multiples of that pattern yielding sets of parallel lines which intersected each other at 90 degs?  Or was it a different pattern?  Do you have a photo of how the shot line was laid in the box?

Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline flagman1776

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 795
  • Gender: Male
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2013, 12:59:47 PM »
My desktop has a good sized screen...  the pictures of the muzzle face seem crude and of course lack the correct markings.  It just does not say "quality" to me.

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2013, 01:17:44 PM »
Seller replied; 
Quote
No there are no markings on the muzzle face, good question though. I think they did that to signify military used (USCG) line cannons. I hope this answers your question. Tom

For Seacoast:  Sorry I have no info on the flaking boxes.

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2013, 02:28:32 PM »
Here's what a Naval Co. cannon muzzle should look like.  This pic shows rhe muzzle of a Model F, which is same as an F-B except with a longer barrel.  I've annotated the photo to show what info is where.  I realize you can't make out the insp. init. or the gun number completely and I don't know them as the guns are not at home where I am now, I just used an old photo I had and cropped it down to the muzzle only.  Gun proof date is 5-5-43.  On right is the USCG "propeller" proofmark; each prop blade has one letter of USCG on it.

Offline dominick

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1367
  • Gender: Male
    • Black Powder Cannons & Mortars
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2013, 09:08:28 AM »
I was paging thru my 2004 SBR catalog this morning and on page 98 is a photo of the same type Lyle gun with the following caption. 
 
     "Legitimate appearing Naval Company Model F-B Lyle gun, discovered to have sand-cored and rough bore inconsistant with the originals.  Bore light illuminates cavernous "chamber" behind bore that adds to apparencies that gun was made for decorative use only and somewhere along the line was vented in error.  Naval Company officials confirm that cored gun could not be one of theirs.  Old advertising fragment indicates possible Taiwanese origin." End quote.
 
 It could be the same gun.
 
Dom
 
 

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2013, 01:31:51 PM »
Dom thanks, that's very interesting info.  If not same gun, probably made by same fakers.  Again, I hope no one gets hurt with it.  Looking back over the Ebay writeup, the seller knew exactly what it was, and invented that story about getting it from a marine salvage yard or whatever he wrote.  If someone is injured, I don't think it will be too hard to prove he knowingly sold defective goods.  He must be pretty hard up for money, or quite greedy, to put himself in a very bad legal position like that. 

Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2013, 01:19:56 AM »
John,
Years ago a seller had a cannon that came from a college used at football games he was selling it as a shooter..... the barrel was made of LEAD!!! I contacted him and told him he was selling a bomb that lead was too soft for the intended purpose and that any firing it and being injured would have a good law suit and he would be libel..... he removed the listing but he also reported every item of mine for a month and ebay did pull a few.... So sometimes good deeds don't go unpunished...... there are a lot of dangerous repro/home made cannon out there all we can do is try to educate.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2013, 03:25:28 AM »

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2013, 03:32:17 AM »
...and now for sale at double the price, at the Cannon Stupidstore!
 
http://www.cannonsuperstore.com/lyle_cannons.htm
 
on the web, you can run but you can't hide

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2013, 04:59:03 AM »
The drama continues: 
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Naval-Life-Line-Cannon-Soild-Bronze-Ship-Used-Signal-Cannon-/321144268745?ssPageName=ADME:B:WNARL:US:1123
 
Lemme see if I can reconstruct what may have transpired since the last thrilling episode:  /Stupidstore won the auction linked way up top of this thread.  Seller waited for payment.  Stupidstore, the buyer, tells seller he's really just gonna put it on his site for twice what he won the bid for, and will gladly pay the seller when some gullible customer pays him for the cannon he doesn't really have yet.  Seller tells Stupidstore:  (unprintable)   and relists item on Ebay.  Plausible explanation?

Offline Zulu

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2477
  • Honor is a gift a man gives himself.
    • Wood & Ironworks
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2013, 05:05:49 AM »
I don't think the Super Store would buy the gun.  I think they sell most of their stuff on consignment.
Zulu
Zulu's website
www.jmelledge.com

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2013, 11:51:43 AM »
Quote
I don't think the Super Store would buy the gun.  I think they sell most of their stuff on consignment.
Zulu

So Z, given all the foregoing, the fact remains that as of this moment, the exact same fake line gun is offered for sale in two different places, namely Ebay and Stupidstore.  Wonder if the Ebay seller is aware Stupidstore is selling the item, even if all they have now is photos?

Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: Caveat Emptor
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2013, 12:09:45 PM »
Not the first time this has happened there was a WWI era casson in Maryland listed on ebay and on the superstore site sometime back and there was something else they listed that was on ebay at the same time back in 2010...
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium