Author Topic: loading trail boss in the .45-70 handi rifle (Read 920 times)

cudatruck · « **on:** June 09, 2013, 08:02:17 PM »

I was loading some rounds for my friends 7.62x54r with trail boss for his girlfriend to shoot. Following the published method of marking the case at the bottom of a seated bullet, filling the case to that level with TB then weighing the charge and reducing by 10% to find maximum and 30% for a starting load. I decided to try this with my .45-70. The weighed charge below the bullet is 26 grains! reduced 10% is still 23.4 grains! I checked published loads for TB and the .45-70. I could not find any loads this high. most were around 14. Do I dare load any with this method or am I looking for trouble?

thejanitor · « **Reply #1 on:** June 10, 2013, 02:23:50 AM »

YOU CAN NOT COMPRESS TRAIL BOSS! I have never heard of anyone going that heavy with trailboss, our load for trail boss was 13 gr w a 405 gr bullet. maybe you figured somewhere wrong.
PLEASE recheck your numbers. Trailboss is a wonderful powder, but if you compress it it will change everything, possibly even the number of fingers and eyes you have.
Sorry if this sounds harsh not trying to be mean but something has your numbers off.
I am glad you asked! thejanitor

gcrank1 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 10, 2013, 04:32:00 AM »

Where did you get that 'published method'? IIRC The last Hodgden info I looked at said up to 100% below the bullet would be underpressure for any cartridge.
It is always good to run the math at least twice on anything like this, then the final is to put that much in a case and look at it and reconsider if necessary.

petemi · « **Reply #3 on:** June 10, 2013, 04:40:56 AM »

I think what you're looking at is the Trap Door loads. Hodgedon doesn't list Trail Boss loads in Modern Rifles. If you follow the formula you can't compress the load because the powder will be well below the bullet.. If you mark the bottom of the bullet and continue from there, there is no way to overload it. I think you're mixing apples and oranges.....Trap Door and Modern Rifle. If you want a very mild load go to Hodgedon" Trap Door section. That's where the Trail Boss loads are.

Stupid question 317C: If you're going to hunt buffs and have less than a month to develop load, why are you messing around with Trail Boss?

Pete

gcrank1 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 10, 2013, 05:30:42 AM »

There are lots of smokeless loads that can equal the BP ballistics, and the ol' BP load has bagged a bunch o' game. If we use that as a baseline for big-game and go up I think the shooter becomes the weak link before the rifle (with some exceptions

).
I know the 500gr. hardcast I got from BB at about 1600fps exceeded me (and were roughly the equiv. of the Garrett loads in weight and velo.
My 100% TB loads behind the 405 gr. Lee chrono'ed close to my full BP chrono'ed load velo (in modern solid head cases; dont go by old data/velos as they likely are NOT what your gun is doing).
SO I could contend that a BP equiv. load with a softish lead bullet will do the job on an Asian Buff (a big 'cow'), and you arent going to be alone or not have a backup round or two, etc.?
As always, placement (ie, putting it where the critter lives) is paramount.

FW Conch · « **Reply #5 on:** June 10, 2013, 08:48:59 AM »

The reason we are instructed not to compress Trail Boss is because "accuracy" falls off if it is compressed. Compression with trail is "not" a safety issue. There really is no solid "Max" charge with it. For instance: I have a 30-06 that has a very long throat. When I back the bullet .020" off the lands, I can get 22grns of Trail Boss below the bullet with no compression, even though the manuels suggest 19grns as a suggested max. Trail Boss loads only produce about 1/3 the design pressure of the round you are loading for. In the case of my "06, less than 20,000psi. Very safe. Trail Boss was designed for "Cowboy Action Shooting". I thought if I loaded my "06 with a 150grn 30/30 bullet, it would open up under TB velocities. "It would not" ! When shot into wet newspaper, the only change to the bullet was the land marks. I tried some 30cal pistol bullets but they seemed to fragment before any effective penetration. My conclusion was, Trail Boss loads are not adequate for Deer size game. They did prove to be reasonably accurate out to 125yds but dropped off fast after that. The noise & recoil are low & TB loads are great for "fun" shooting & training inexperienced & young shooters.
Good Luck- Good Shooting

Jim

thejanitor · « **Reply #6 on:** June 10, 2013, 09:28:57 AM »

Well I wont be compressing any trailboss thank you very much. thejanitor

petemi · « **Reply #7 on:** June 10, 2013, 10:58:53 AM »

Frankly, I don't like Trail Boss. It is flaky, flies all over, gets electrostatic and sticks to everything. I have a jug and a half of it that I'll probably never use unless I make firecrackers with it. The other aspect fueling the fire is that I don't download or upload anything...I just grab another rifle in a plus or minus caliber. I also don't give a hoot about sub-sonic or suppressed loads. All my .38 Special loads are sub-sonic, but that's the nature of the beast and I use them for that...a skunk or coon in the garden, etc. I can also load silent 4-600 fps. loads in my .32-20 if it needs to be quiet, but I don't see a real need for that either. My next door neighbor is a half mile away. I shoot what I want when I want without disturbing anyone or attracting unwanted attention. There's no way I'd pay the price of two or three Handis just to get a suppressor and go through the BATF B.S.

Pete

Mike in Virginia · « **Reply #8 on:** June 10, 2013, 11:27:22 AM »

That's what I found out, Pete. T/B lost it's place on my loading bench.

I always thought one ought to load any particular caliber to factory velocity or higher, if safe. Reduced loads--I don't know what they're for. If a person wants to fire at something with less power, go to a lesser cartridge. JMO.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 10, 2013, 12:26:34 PM »

There are lots of good reasons for 'less than factory loads' for lots of experienced shooters. Evidence the long time tome the 'Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook' and its devotees.
One thing I have found with reduced loads is the need for good follow through, the higher velo loads often let a guy get away with some poor form, not so the slower loads.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 10, 2013, 12:44:01 PM »

Quote from: cudatruck on June 09, 2013, 08:02:17 PM

I was loading some rounds for my friends 7.62x54r with trail boss for his girlfriend to shoot. Following the published method of marking the case at the bottom of a seated bullet, filling the case to that level with TB then weighing the charge and reducing by 10% to find maximum and 30% for a starting load. I decided to try this with my .45-70. The weighed charge below the bullet is 26 grains! reduced 10% is still 23.4 grains! I checked published loads for TB and the .45-70. I could not find any loads this high. most were around 14. Do I dare load any with this method or am I looking for trouble?

Right from Hodgdon's website .

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail%20Boss%20Reduced%20Loads%20R&P.pdf

stimpy

petemi · « **Reply #11 on:** June 10, 2013, 12:59:13 PM »

Mike I agree entirely.

I also have very little use for cast bullets or black powder or equivalent loads. I went through the black powder routine years ago and I'm now not interested in dealing with the mess and bother. As Mike stated, if I want a bigger, faster, smaller or slower bullet, I just choose another rifle. My only concern is that I can refine a load that will shoot minute of angle in that particular rifle. I don't care if it is a marble powered by fertilizer.

Pete

gcrank1 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 10, 2013, 01:02:24 PM »

Way things are going you might want to start working up that 'project' real soon........

hoytcanon · « **Reply #13 on:** June 10, 2013, 02:50:08 PM »

Well you guys are just too practical! Messing with loads and applications is almost as fun as shooting! I would rather mess with a download at a given energy level than grab a "full power" .223 load... Some of my favorite brush hunting loads are big, large diameter, slower moving bullets that still carry good energy. My other reason for down loads are for nailing small game and varmints while hunting big game... Nice to release the barrel, pop in a .30/30 squib and pop a bunny in the head for that nights dinner pot... But that's just me.

cudatruck · « **Reply #14 on:** June 10, 2013, 06:43:04 PM »

Oh no guys! Was not thinking of using TB for the Asian water buffalo! Sorry got multiple threads goin at the same time. I will be using some kind of normal loading for the buff. the trail boss question came to being from the wanderings of my mind loading some ammo and realizing how huge the .45-70 case is. 13-14 grains only fill the case about 1/3! I think I'm goin to load a couple following hogdons method of finding the bullet bottom reduce by 10%. That should be about 24 grains of TB then have my masochistic buddy mike shoot it. What ya'll think?

gcrank1 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 11, 2013, 04:23:36 AM »

A full to bullet base load of TB will not abuse you or the gun, just a healthy boot and no sharp painful jab at all. The recoil impulse seems different than many smokeless loads. This comes from a guy with an old neck injury and rt. shoulder (and I shoot rt) rotator cuff/ligament pull issues; this is to say Im fairly recoil sensitive.
Loads up 3, take em out and shoot 'em offhand and tell us what ya think (and, no, Im NOT setting you up here).

petemi · « **Reply #16 on:** June 11, 2013, 06:06:00 AM »

I forgot to mention, I talked to Lee about Trail Boss and the problems I was having with the powder measure. They recommended running powdered graphite through it, and it worked. It wasn't sticking and clogging......but, I still don't like the powder. It still sticks on case necks and everything else.

I don't understand it. If you want reduced velocity loads, use a different caliber rifle. I'm not messing around with the scope on my .45-70 because I want to shoot slower loads. I just grab a .357 or a .32-20 To me, it ain't rocket science. There are big calibers and big loads and smaller calibers with little loads. Take your pick. Unless it is the only rifle you own, there's no reason, in my way of thinking, to reduce a load and mess around with the scope and POI. I'll say it again: "I'm old and Lazy".

Pete

gcrank1 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 11, 2013, 06:22:32 AM »

No adjusting for me, Pete, my 'normal' reduced cast bullet (by modern standards) loads are -0-ed in and what I expect. In the 45-70 I dont need a buff load to plink & play or even take a Wisconsin WhiteTail. I think most everybody finds loads they like for whatever caliber and -0- for them, its just that my load isnt your load and Im good with that

.
FWIW, I used to have heavy loads and everyday loads for several calibers and it wasnt quite what I thought it would be. So I do the same as you, I grab a different caliber/gun, its just that most of mine arent loaded up 'to potential', but I still have a similar spread in effect.

cudatruck · « **Reply #18 on:** June 11, 2013, 08:29:31 PM »

Gcrank1 I trust your advice and am willing to try out a couple. Pete, I'm just playing with these. I have TB powder and am going to be taking the .45-70 to the range a lot in the next month. Just don't want to do anything stupid. Have any of you guys actually fired one of these with a damn near full case of TB? It sure "looks" like a lot of powder. I have on hand H4198 not IMR4198 most of the loading info I have is for IMR. Hogdons site has info for the H powder but not very much. Looks like the two are close to each other but not interchangeable. I have loaded 405 and 485 cast with H4198. That is most likely the powder I will be using because I can't get any other to try!

gcrank1 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 12, 2013, 03:49:20 AM »

Yes, I have, and do fire 100% capacity to base of bullet loads in several calibers including the 45-70. My chrony tests of the 45-70 loads, TB vs full black powder loads, has resulted in similar velocities thus similar ballistics with none of the clean up or empty space syndrome from a less bulky smokeless powder.

FW Conch · « **Reply #20 on:** June 12, 2013, 07:54:35 AM »

My experience reloading Trail Boss is consistent with that of gcrank1. I learned how to do it from the article published in the "Hodgdon's 2011 Annual Manuel". I feel that anyone using the information in this well written article will have no problems. Just remember- Trail Boss is a "Smokeless" powder, "not a substitute for Black powder" ! Good Luck-Good Shooting

Jim

kc5gxc · « **Reply #21 on:** June 12, 2013, 02:34:19 PM »

I have also shot full cases of Trailboss in 45-70 and 45 Colt too. I don't use the powder measure for it , but the Lee dippers. Just find the one to fill the case to base of bullet and use it to load every time. Nary a problem...both calibers shoot great !

cudatruck · « **Reply #22 on:** June 12, 2013, 04:37:01 PM »

Great! Thanks for the encouraging replys guys! I think I will try them out! and will report back here how they go.