Asian water buffalo with the .45-70 Handi?

[cudatruck]

Ok, looks like I might get to go harvest a buffalo in Paso Robles this summer. Farmer says 100yd shot and bring something bigger than an '06. The only rifle larger than .30 I have is the .45-70. I am sure the round is up to it, but I have not shot this rifle enough to be confident. I have only shot cast lead and have not accomplished accurate enough shooting. Should I jump to jacketed bullets? If so, which ones? How fast? I only have about a month to figure this out. Would having a back up shooter be prudent? Have any of you eaten water buffalo? This is going to be a 3000 dollar shot, I don't want to screw it up. Thanks in advance for any and all advice. Mike.

[gr8ful]

I would bet that a 45-70 loaded with a 405gr hard cast LBT bullet at 1700 fps would shoot through a water buffalo long ways, and still be fairly comfortable to shoot.  Practice until you can consistently hit a 2 liter soda jug at 100 yards then go bag your buff. Good luck!

[vk4ale]

Google and see what gets used in Nth Australia now and in the past.Happy hunting Allan.

[blind ear]

Lucky dog!
-
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AhbgP1z7HfdB0_RwfycriyWbvZx4?p=500+grain+45+70+at+1500+fps+cape+buffalo&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-600
-
Good luck, ear

[thejanitor]

Petemi has the load you need.  I think it was developed for stopping buses.  thejanitor

[YRUpunting?]

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570.html

[hoytcanon]

The .45/70 is up to the task... As always; #2 is shot placement, #3 is bullet construction. However, take this from someone who guided bear hunters for many years, shooter confidence is #1... And your lack of it, would cause me the most concern. When the moment of truth comes, any doubt in the back of yyour mind "leaps" to the frontal cortex and I have seen a myriad of bad decisions and poor performance in that moment. What ever you decide to hunt with, you need to believe 100% in its impending effectiveness and your ability to apply it. JMO

[quickdtoo]

Congrats on the hunt Mike!!  Bernie uses the Lee 500R bullet w/ ADI2207(H4198) at ~1500fps for water buffalo.

Tim

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/11/hodgdon-equivalents-for-adi-powder-codes/

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,80867.msg502862.html#msg502862

i have a buff classic and for my smokeless loads i use adi powder and a cast lee 500r bullet for a little bit over 1500 fps the bullet is 508grain in a 20 to 1 mix that load gives me 2589 foot pounds of energy thats  enuff for the game here in australia even water buffalo with awell placed shot i can drive it at 1600fps for 2888 foot pounds of energy but i dont feel it is nessersery. and i mite ad that i do not get any leading,i use rooster red lube.
bernie

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,92212.msg571850.html#msg571850

i shoot a h@r buf classic .45/70 with a Smith buckhorn lader sight with peep hole slider and a lyman front globe.i shoot the lee 500r cast bullet bc of .443 to wich i fit a gascheck to. with my load of adi 2207 i get 1690 fps ,it pole axes camel's at 200 meters and does the same to aisan water buffalo.i use a 20 to 1 lead tin mix never had a bullet exit they all expand to duble there size and totaly wrecks  the vitles. i did a penertration test with this bullet shooting a young gum tree it split the trunk nearley in two.recoverd bullet it had onley lost 5 grn's weight.heres a pic of the bullet.the one on the right  has the gascheck.
bernie

[quickdtoo]

I've got a box of BTB .460" 525gr Piledrivers I'll donate for the hunt if ya want em, they shoot excellent in my 45-120 BC. 

Tim

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21

http://45-70.blogspot.com/2012/03/beartooth-bullets-525gr-piledriver.html

ps... Your 30-06 may not be such a bad option if the farmer will allow it and you're more confident in using it, this article by Barsness says it works for Cape Buffalo in capable hands. I have 180gr Accubonds and 200gr Partitions for your hunt also, they both shoot good in Handis. The article reiterates what Hoyt said about shooter confidence.


http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/April_2009.html

CARTRIDGES AND BULLETS FOR REAL BUFFALO Real rifles and cartridges for real buffalo!

 by John Barsness

DESPITE WHAT MOST PEOPLE call them, North America's buffalo aren't real buffalo.  Real buffalo are from Africa and Asia and have shorter hair and longer horns than our buffalo.  I know this is a technical distinction, and freely admit to usually calling our bison "buffalo" myself.

Real buffalo have a reputation for being fiercer than bison, especially the African Cape buffalo.  The water buffalo of Asia have a mixed reputation, partly because a lot of "wild" Asian buffalo were domesticated, then went wild.  These feral buffalo are thus descended from stock that was deliberately bred to be relatively docile.  The original, truly wild Asian buffalo had the reputation of being quite fierce, according to the writings of various 19th-century hunters.  But there aren't many of those left, and most water buffalo we hunt are feral.

Both kinds of buffalo are large animals.  Cape buffalo are somewhat smaller than water buffalo, but larger bulls still average around 1500 pounds, and sometimes push a ton.  I hunted Cape buffalo in Botswana's Okavango Delta a few years ago in August, toward the end of Africa's dry season.  Big herds were massed along the rivers that create the Okavango.  We only saw one bunch of buffalo of under about 250 head, and one herd contained over 1000.

When you see that many buffalo together the big bulls quickly become obvious.  The biggest-boded bull I saw had both his horns broken off at their lowest sweep, one reason he grew so large: no hunter wanted to shoot him.  How much he weighed is impossible to know, but he stood at least six inches higher than any other bull in the herd, and was proportionately longer and wider as well.  He also had a real bad attitude, and every time we came anywhere near "his" herd, he'd trot out toward us - whether we were on foot or in a Land Cruiser - and give the hard prison-yard stare.

Cape buffalo also have a reputation for being hard to kill, to the point where some people make it sound like they're tougher than a skyscraper.  They are quite tough, but as with elk, their reputation partly comes from lousy shooting and bad bullets.  Shoot them in the right place and they die, usually within a minute - though a minute can seem like an awful long time when a buffalo is still on its feet.

Thirty years ago most experienced Cape buffalo hunters preferred "solid" bullets, because few expanding bullets worked consistently.  Cape buffalo not only have very heavy bones, but their very wide ribs overlap like thick shingles.  Their hide is also very thick and tough, and often covered with mud or impregnated with sand.  None of this is good for relatively delicate bullets, and even some old-time solids were delicate, essentially being reverse softpoints with thin, gilding metal jackets.  These would often flatten out on buffalo bones, or even come apart.  Today we have much better bullets, and most PH's advise using expanding bullets on buffalo.

Today the big problem with killing Cape buffalo is that many safari hunters are plain scared of them.  This, of course, is part of the thrill of hunting dangerous game, but as one African professional hunter pointed out, being too scared isn't good either:

"Most of our clients are on the older side, simply because many of them can't afford to hunt buffalo earlier in life.  They read and hear all these stories in about how hard buffalo are to kill, so buy a really big rifle.  They shoot it once or twice and by then are just as scared of the rifle as they are of buffalo - maybe more so, because they've actually been bitten by the rifle.

"They come to Africa with this big rifle they've only shot a couple of times, and we go hunting.  It may take a few days of hiking and stalking to get up on a good bull, and by that the client may just want to get it over with.  He's huffing and scared and aims at the whole bloody buffalo, and hits the bull somewhere around the edges.  This might not seem possible at 50 yards with an animal that has lungs as big as a bushel basket, but it happens all the time.  Then the firing becomes general and after several shots from the client and the PH the buffalo is finally dead.  And client goes back to America and starts another round of buffalo-are-impossible-to-kill stories, and the cycle starts all over again."

Buffalo are tough but not really all that hard to kill.  In fact I know more than one African PH who's killed many of them with a .30-06 or something similar, even big bulls, legal when doing "control" shooting, whether of animals damaging crops or just thinning herds in parks.  My friend Kevin Thomas has killed quite a few with a .30-06 and 180-grain Nosler Partitions, a load that some American hunters think is on the light side for elk, and Kevin had no problems.

Kevin is also one among many African PH's who thinks the .375 H&H is plenty for buffalo - though a few qualify that by saying that under certain circumstances the .375 is "a little light."  Kevin doesn't feel the .375 is a little light, and puts his rifle where his mouth is, since he has used the .375 as his personal back-up rifle on buffalo for many years, even in really thick cover.  He only uses his .458 Lott when backing up elephant hunters.

In fact, talking to Kevin and some other PH's is entertaining because of the way many regard the American obsession with the perfect premium bullet.  Kevin used to handload for his .375, but anymore mostly shoots the leftover ammo his clients leave.  I asked him which bullet he prefers, and he shrugged.  "They're all good today.  I just use whatever I have."  To Americans used to arguing about whether to use Barnes TSX's, Nosler Partitions or Swift A-Frames, this might seem incredible.  But I tend to agree with Kevin, even though he has shot around 600 more Cape buffalo than I have:  In general we make too much of small differences among our wide variety of fine bullets.

The one bullet problem a few PHs have mentioned is the opposite of 30 years ago.  Our present obsession with penetration as The Answer to any expanding-bullet question can create real problems when buffalo hunting.  The super-deep penetraters can go right through a bull and hit another buffalo in a herd, even when shot from a "light" rifle like a 9.3 or .375.  I saw how this can happen myself on the bull I killed in the Okavango.  My first shot was with a .375 H&H using a handloaded 300-grain Fail Safe, that now-discontinued bullet that worked much like a Barnes TSX.  I aimed for the bull's shoulder as he stood broadside at about 75 yards, but just as I pulled the trigger the bull took a slow step forward, and the bullet went close behind his shoulder, the classic placement on white-tailed deer.  The Fail Safe didn't just go through the buffalo, it left an exit hole I could stick my fist in.

This is why many PH's prefer "softer" bullets, especially if the hunter is using a rifle bigger than a .375.  Lead-cored bullets that open up to a rounded mushroom generally won't pop through the tough skin on the far side of a buffalo's chest, preventing any accidental hits on buffalo beyond.  I have had great luck with the 400-grain Nosler Partition from the .416 Rigby, finding them under the far hide whether the shot was broadside or quartering.  But I've also seen the Swift A-Frame and Trophy Bonded Bear Claw do great damage to a buffalo's chest before stopping under the hide.  While I haven't seen it used personally on buffalo, PH's tell me the Woodleigh Weldcore is another fine choice.

This isn't to say that "petal" type bullets like the Barnes TSX are a bad choice.  In fact, most PH's really like the TSX.  But many also advise stepping down in bullet weight to prevent over-penetration.  The 270-grain .375 TSX penetrates plenty, and also shoots very flat in the .375 H&H, making it highly useful on plains game as well.  The 350-grain TSX does the same thing for the various .416's.

Today's solids are also vastly improved.  I have personally used solids made by Barnes, Trophy Bonded and Speer (the last their discontinued tungsten-core solid, a very fine bullet), and they all worked fine, penetrating deeply and in a straight line.  The best use I got out of solids was on a water buffalo, in of all places Texas.  This may seem like an odd place to hunt water buffalo, but there are far more water buffalo in places they're NOT native than where they used to be.  This particular part of Texas looked a lot like much of Africa, with the same sandy grasslands surrounded by thornbush.

I managed to shoot this bull a little far back, mostly due to arrogance.  I had made one good running shot on a Cape buffalo, so thought I could do it again on a water buffalo.  The 400-grain Partition from my .416 Rigby went through both lungs, but only the rear fringe of both lungs.  The bull ran a little ways and stopped, looking back as if deciding whether to leave or charge, and I shot him again, this time solidly through the meat of the shoulder, though both lungs.  He took off again and I managed to put a solid through his chest as he quartered away, just before he disappeared into some thick thornbush.

That's the problem with both Cape and water buffalo.  They get much tougher if the first bullet isn't well-placed.  This bull now had three bullets through his chest, and yet wasn't dead.  The ranch owner, Clay Boone, and I waited 15 minutes, hoping for a death bellow, but didn't hear one.  So we had to go in there.

I went in first, with Clay right behind me.  We hadn't gone far when I saw the buffalo's rear end just ahead of us in the brush.  I put a 400-grain Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer into the tail, and the bull's rear end collapsed as he turned toward us.  Another Sledgehammer through both shoulders dropped his front end, but his head was still up, so I put yet another solid in his neck just behind the skull, and that was that.  I counted 17 steps to where the bull lay.  (I'll only add that one great thing about hunting water buffalo in Texas is that you can bring the meat home.  It is wonderful, even with a few .416 holes.)

You may have noticed that no cartridges larger than .416 have been mentioned.  A .416 definitely hits a buffalo harder than a .375 or 9.3, and a .45+ hits them harder than a .416.  Yet most PH's don't like to see a .458 or .470 come out of the client's gun case, because all too often the client can't shoot one straight.  You may be the exception, but my PH in Botswana, Russell Tarr, said the vast majority of his clients that bring .458 Winchesters and .458 Lotts and .470 Nitro-Expresses can't shoot them straight.  He said just about everybody that brings a .375 can shoot it well enough, and quite a few people who bring .416's can also shoot.  But anything bigger tends to bring a case of the flinches along with it.

My own limited experience is that the .375 H&H (and similar 9.3's), and either of the most popular .416's (the Remington and Rigby) are plenty for Cape or water buffalo.  If you shoot them straight, and put the bullet in the right place, the buffalo will soon be dead.  If you shoot the buffalo in the wrong place, whether through arrogance, flinching or some accident of chance, even the biggest rifle won't kill cleanly.  And that's why PH's like to see a .375 coming out of the rifle case, and why so many choose the old .375 H&H when hunting buffalo themselves.

[44 Man]

Don't worry about making a lot of changes or buying something different.  That old 45-70 has been taking buffalo since forever.  As long as your 405 gr cast bullet has a reasonable flat nose and load it at a #2 loading level then get out there and practice, practice, practice.  Good luck with your hunt you lucky dog!  44 Man

[petemi]

Well said Hoyt    

Brent, that load stops both the bus AND the driver.  It's not rocket science.  It's pretty much all there on Hodgdon's .45-70 Modern  Rifle loads.  I use a .405 Remington and slightly less IMR 4198 on the max end.  It works.  1950 fps.  A 400 - .405 hard cast would work also.  Asian buffs ain't armor plated, they're not an African Cape Buffalo.  I have no reason to believe an '06 with the right load wouldn't work.  More than a few elephants have been killed with them, so I don't know where that farmer is coming from.  I believe most farmers are not gun experts....and I'm a farmer.

In Italy, where I lived for three years, farmers milk Asian Buffs and make Mozzarella Cheese.  It's the preferred cheese, very rich.  Throughout the Eastern world, they are beasts of burden, as well as food and milk.  In my opinion, three grand to shoot one is a bit much.  It's more than the average Third World farmer sees in a year.  You could shoot a  prime Angus Bull for that or less. Depending on the level of domestication, it could be like shooting Holsteins at a dairy barn, or they could be wild and more of a challenge......I don't know.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

Pete

[mcwoodduck]

A 45-70 should be enough for the Asian buffalo. 
I hate to tell you, but in Paso Robles you need to use lead free  ammo to save the Condor.
The myth goes that if you shoot anything with a lead bullet and it pases through the Condor will fly down smell the blood and eat the bullet.  The Lead will poison the Condor and they will be come extinct. 
Even if you are shooting a pig in the pasture you have to use lead free. 
To stay out of trouble with a game warden you may want to work up some Barnes Lead free loads.   
 

[quickdtoo]

I've got ya covered if you need/want to use non-lead Barnes 300gr TTSX 458 SOCOM bullets, got most of a box(~45-50) of em, there's a good Handi review on them at Midway, tho they may need to be seated a bit deeper if your 45-70 Handi has a short throat as many do.

Tim

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/544442/barnes-tipped-triple-shock-x-bullets-458-socom-458-diameter-300-grain-spitzer-boat-tail-lead-free-box-of-50

[hoytcanon]

Tim you're a real peach... And I mean that sincerely.

[tacklebury]

In the latest North American Hunter, a gentleman used a Marlin Guide Gun with an 18-1/2" barrel and Buffalo Bore .405 gr. .45-70 bullets to take a cape buffalo in Africa.  I'd say if it can take the Cape Buffalo, the other water buffalo should work as well.  He was about 3" off on his first shot or it would have been done on that shot according to the guide.  He just missed the spine and the bullet completely destroyed one whole backstrap and came out the far end.  He finally hit it 2 more times and then put one through it's head for the show stopper.    If you can get a copy it's a good read. 

[gcrank1]

What a shame it messed up a  backstrap!
Of course, havin' a Cape Dance done on ya is messy too.......

[hoytcanon]

If that buff hunter "just missed" the spine, he was off by more than 3" and needs a slap in the melon, not congratulations. IMO... Glad they managed to put it down proper though.

[gcrank1]

I 'spose that when yer shooting fer the nose ya cant always count on the spine being perfectly square behind 

[mcwoodduck]

In the latest North American Hunter, a gentleman used a Marlin Guide Gun with an 18-1/2" barrel and Buffalo Bore .405 gr. .45-70 bullets to take a cape buffalo in Africa.  I'd say if it can take the Cape Buffalo, the other water buffalo should work as well.  He was about 3" off on his first shot or it would have been done on that shot according to the guide.  He just missed the spine and the bullet completely destroyed one whole backstrap and came out the far end.  He finally hit it 2 more times and then put one through it's head for the show stopper.    If you can get a copy it's a good read.

What they do not tell you with the Archary, Pistol or 45-70 hunting articles where dangerous game in on the list,  is there is a Professional hunter  or two with them with a Stopping rifle in a BIG powerful caliber in case the hunt does not go as planned that can shoot it well and is willing to step infront of the charge and kill the animal or die trying. 
Remembering a little bit about reading on Asian buffalo there are two or three species.  The first is the large Ox we see in all the WWII pacific or Viet Nam movies.  They are big and powerfull, there is a Southern version that is a little larger and more agressive and the third is the Red Asian Buffalo that is vary large, very agressive and similar to the Cape Buffalo if not more agressive. 
 

[cudatruck]

Guys, Thanks for all the support and great advice! Tim I may just take you up on those! I think I want to stick to the 405s. I will have to check on the lead free problem! I was looking on midway and they had hornadys and speers FP jacketed 405 in stock. thought maybe I could use those or stick with the Oregon trails cast 405? Oh darn what a terrible problem to have.... which bullet should I use? Went out today and shot some more trying max trapdoor loads to see if I can handle the recoil. So far Ok, I think I can go up into lever gun loads. What velocity do you guys think I will have to have gas checks?

[mcwoodduck]

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/
This may answer many of your questions.  It tells everything except the cost of the fine for shooting lead ammo. 
I also sent you a PM earlier to see if you wanted to use my 375H&H Bolt gun with some 300 grain lead free Solids.
 

[cudatruck]

Wow, thanks so much for the offer to use the .375, I think I want to try to use the .45-70. I have a month to practice and think confidence shooting a familiar weapon is a plus.

[tacklebury]

Well read the article before you judge the guy too harshly Wood Duck.  It was 100+ degrees and they had tracked for 4 miles I think and had a tough time getting a perfectly straight on shot.  He castigates himself for the miss of a perfect hit, but the PH who was carrying a .477 Nitro stated that he'd have no issues using the .45-70 with modern loads after seeing the damage done.  Modern loads are borderline .458 Win Mag Factory loads for lever guns or Handi's.  I've had some pretty exemplary shots at weird angles, but I practice weird.  I do very little bench shooting except for occasional groups or 200+ yard shots I'll use a rest if one's available.  At the 300 to 500 yard range, I really prefer to be on a bench though.  Makes a big difference shooting sideways, down, up etc. 

[mcwoodduck]

Tacklebury,
I am not saying it will not work.  But with a Cape buffalo that has been known to take a Dozen full house 375's or larger Magnum rounds. 
Also you mention that 45-70 is at the bottom end of 458Win mag.  And yes the light loads for the 458 =the hot loads for the 45-70 but the full house loads are like comparing 30-30 to 300 Weatherby mag.  Yes same caliber bullet and the hot 30-30 loads come close to the low level loads of the 300 WBY but at the top end the 300 WBY throws a lot heavier bullet a whole lot faster.  Throwing a 405 grain bullet at 1500 to 1800 FPS is close to the 500 grain bullet at 2,000FPS but the energy delivered and the penetration is significantly more.  Also the 500 Grain solid or soft point is made to drive deep and break bone and poke holes in the soft squishy parts that kill game.  The 405 lead round may not hold together at those speeds.
 
And yes a single round can be done and it is better to shoot a 45-70 and hit the center of the boiler room than the shoot high or low with the 458 WM. 
My point was not to count on a large agressive animal to go down on a single round out of a single shot rifle.  With 100yards being the range you have a little time to reload and take another shot.  What I wa pointing out is even though this guy shot a big animal with a 45-70 he did have someone standing there with a 416 - 470 or larger stopping rifle in case that single 45-70 load does not work as planed.  If he has a buddy with a large rifle that is willing to go with him and help gut and butcher something the size of a Steer.  But he will have to be a good friend to do all that work.
But remember a pro football player is able to run the 100 yard dash in under 15 seconds and that is with 2 legs.  How much time do you have for a 1/2 ton four legged animal coming that distance.  Practice reloadig and getting off another aimed shot in that same time. 
With all that said I would not feel under gunned with a 200 or 220 grain lead round in a 30-06 or  to be politcally correct to meet the CA laws, a 180 grain All copper load for the 30-06 and be sure I can shoot it very well.   The all copper 180 grain bullet is long and will penetrate heavy mussle and break bone and keep going.  I would not feel under gunned with one. 

[ironglow]

  A friend of mine while in Korea during that war, came upon a native farmer being gored by a buffalo.  He shot the buffalo.. it cost him a stripe and lots of $$$.
  His rifle.. M1 Garand, 30/06 hardball..he didn't indicate any difficulty with the actual killing...the difficulty came later..  

[geezerbiker]

I suppose no good deed goes unpunished... 

Tony

  A friend of mine while in Korea during that war, came upon a native farmer being gored by a buffalo.  He shot the buffalo.. it cost him a stripe and lots of $$$.
  His rifle.. M1 Garand, 30/06 hardball..he didn't indicate any difficulty with the actual killing...the difficulty came later..

[cudatruck]

all of the info I can find says water buffalo is like beef but leaner and a little stronger tasting. Must keep from over cooking as it dries out and gets tough easy. Any of you guys have experience with this? Checked the prices for all copper .458 bullets, OUCH, those are spendy! Tim sir, that offer of the Barnes bullets was very gracious indeed! It would be good to get the velocity up for the 300 grainers and still keep within tolerable recoil levels. How fast do I need to push them? So far I have shot the 405s at 1500 and some 485s at about 1100 both plain based and I have not had leading problems.

[quickdtoo]

Mike, I've shot the 300gr TSX-FB at ~2350fps, recoil is about 32-33lbs according to the recoil calculator in an 8lb rifle, I was shooting in a leadsled tho, so not an issue from the bench. From the Midway reviewer's penetration findings with the TTSX at 1800fps, I'd work a load up to ~2000fps or so and see how it works, adding lead to the stock would be the easiest way to manage recoil for range work. I can include the .458 throater with the TTSX bullets in case you need it. If you can give me the water case capacity of fired brass in your rifle and you confirm the seating depth, I can give you QL predictions for trapdoor/low levergun load data since Barnes doesn't list the TTSX in their levergun data, it is listed in QL tho.

Tim

http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/load-data/data-458/

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

[craigster]

The M193 5.56 55gr FMJ will easily kill an Asian buff at 100 yds with a well placed shot. Ask me how I know.

[mcwoodduck]

The M193 5.56 55gr FMJ will easily kill an Asian buff at 100 yds with a well placed shot. Ask me how I know.

OK, I cna be the strait man.
Craigster, how do you know a 5.56 FMJ will kill an Asian Buffalo?