Author Topic: States want to tax hybrid, elect car owners for NOT buying enough gas.  (Read 806 times)

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Offline powderman

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 States look to tax hybrid and electric car owners to recoup road funding  Published June 09, 2013
Associated Press   
  
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 Toyota's new mojomobile
 RALEIGH, N.C. –  North Carolina is joining a growing number of states exploring new fees for hybrid and electric car owners to help make up for revenue those drivers aren't paying in gas taxes on their fuel-efficient vehicles.
The proposal strikes many owners of alternative-fuel vehicles and some advocacy groups as a wrong-headed approach to balancing priorities of promoting U.S. energy independence with sustainable infrastructure funding. But policymakers and some experts argue taxing hybrid and electric vehicle owners is a matter of making sure all drivers help maintain the roads they use and construct new ones.
 
Gas taxes are the most vital source of transportation funding, making up nearly 40 percent of all state highway revenues and more than 90 percent at the federal level, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. But those revenues haven't kept up with rising construction costs, falling 41 percent in real value at the federal level since they were last increased 18 years ago, according to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy. The same non-partisan research group estimates that state and local gas-tax revenue fell 7 percent to $38 billion between 2004 and 2010.
 
Many transportation organizations and other groups say an overhaul that moves the system to a tax based on miles traveled is needed, but those reforms come with their own hurdles and for now states are looking for other fixes. At least 10 states are considering or have passed legislation to collect fees from owners of electric or hybrid cars.
"I think so far what we're seeing is the trend seems to be either an additional annual fee or some type of registration fee seems to be much more popular than the miles-driven tax, because that is a newer technology and raises some privacy concerns," said Kristy Hartman, a transportation and environment analyst at the NCSL.
New Jersey scrapped a plan to charge vehicles by miles traveled amid pushback from media and legislators, opting instead for a flat fee on electric cars.
 
North Carolina senators included an additional $100 annual registration fee for electric-car owners and a $50 fee for hybrid drivers. They estimate the new fees will raise $1.5 million annually. The Senate's provision would have to survive budget negotiations with the House, which is expected to release its full spending plan in the coming days.
Sen. Neal Hunt, R-Wake and a chief budget-writer, argues the policy ensures all drivers are contributing their fair share toward maintaining the roads and services they all use.
"I just seems logical to me that they should pay a small fee for the use of the highways and the wear and tear they put on the highways," he said.
 
But that policy, along with the end of a pilot program offering four interstate plug-in stops, is troubling to many drivers of fuel-efficient cars.
Ryan Turner, an IT professional in Chapel Hill, said he and many other drivers of alternative-fuel vehicles chose their cars because they're concerned about the environment and the country's dependence on oil. The Chevrolet Volt driver helped advocate for a statewide plug-in vehicle readiness plan.
"On its face, it's reasonable for electric owners to contribute toward road tax in some way," he said. "I think what's suspect is that, given all the issues we have in this state, given the state's woeful effort so far to promote electric vehicles as part of some statewide agenda, it is suspect that this vehicle tax is a priority given the small amount of the revenue it will bring in."
 
The policy looks especially arbitrary when more and more conventional cars are achieving fuel efficiency that's comparable to some hybrid cars, Turner added.
Jay Friedland, legislative director for the advocacy group Plug In America, has asked legislators in other states to phase in special fees after the number of alternative-fuel vehicles reaches 100,000, arguing administrative costs make such policies counter-productive before states reach a critical mass.
 
"We generally say this is a period of time when you should be incentivizing these vehicles, but after a while, yes, everyone should be paying their fair share," he said.
North Carolina has an estimated 30,000 hybrid and electric cars registered in the state.
Plug In America supports a vehicle-miles tax, and Friedland said his organization swayed Washington lawmakers to include a study of that policy in the state's own bill targeting alternative-fuel vehicles.
"Fundamentally, the mechanism exists (for charging a miles-traveled tax), but I don't know of any states that are currently doing that yet," he said. "We're really on the edge of this, because we're for once actually watching fuel consumption going down, and that's why we're watching these taxes come up."
 
Berry Jenkins of the Carolinas Association of General Contractors said bigger reforms are ultimately needed to address infrastructure in the long term. He's part of a coalition of businesses and regional transit groups that endorses miles-traveled taxes. The problem, he said, are concerns that they system would require intrusive new technologies and that fuels apprehension among political leaders.
"It's never going to be a convenient time to ask people to pay more for infrastructure," he said.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/09/states-look-to-tax-hybrid-and-electric-car-owners-to-recoup-road-funding/#ixzz2VoyvMPvo
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline ironglow

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Looks like the sparkys are a bit of "false economy"..
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Offline magooch

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When all the issues are considered, trying to reconcile tax inequities with regard to road use would cause more problems than it would solve.  Better fuel economy is a virtue.  Taxing a virtue is wrong headed from the jump.  What about motorcycles and bicycles and skate boards for crying out loud.  I could see maybe a token additional registration fee for all-electric vehicles, but anything else wouldn't really address the fairness issue.


A lot more road expense is caused by spiked tires in the winter time than all the electric cars will ever cause.  Well designed roads and highways would virtually last for ever if it weren't for big trucks, but we all depend on trucks for our very survival, so in fairness you have to spread the cost.


If, or when we're all driving electric vehicles, then maybe it's worth taking another look at it.  Right now, the most unfair thing is tax rebate subsidies on electric vehicles.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Liberals want it all.
More electric cars and more taxes.
The goal is to take as much of your disposable income as they can so you cna not buy what you need so you NEED them and more government. 

Offline spruce

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You are exactly right mcwoodduck.
 
The libs want to take ALL our money and give us back whatever they think we should have!  TOTAL government dependency - or in other words a slave state.

Offline powderman

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Kinda like the co I buy heating propane from. We try hard to conserve cause we struggle just to fill the tank. If I don't refill by Christmas I get a bill in Jan for $50 as a surcharge. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
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http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline Soilman

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Yep, so, tell me. Where is the incentive to buy a hybrid/electric car, when then already cost twice what a gas vehicle does, and now they want to slap an extra tax on it.  I've been saying for a while, that before long, the government is just gonna have our paychecks sent to them, and then they will give us out of it what they think we need, and keep the rest.

Offline Anna

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So now they want to tax us for what we didn't do or what we don't have?
Have they lost their minds?  And PM I know what you mean by that gas company.
When I lived in town I had gas heat only the rest of the house was electric.
During the summer I was still charged a surcharge of $50.00 a month for the gas I didn't use?
I wonder if these states got this idea from company's that are doing things like that?
A tax on what you didn't buy and didnt pay the tax on.
This is what I was saying about a tax on the tax that you didn't pay the tax on so they will tax you
anyway. Who in the world keeps track on all that its a paradox like a snake eating its own tail?


Offline wolverine_1

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OK... Think about the situation where all people have electric cars.  How do we maintain and repair the roads and streets.  No income is coming in to pay for the maintenance and repair because there are no gas taxes being paid.  So now we have to either lay off the maintenance folks (and thus can't do the work) or we have to increase the general tax fund or we just let the roads go and try to drive around the pot holes.  Damage to pavements is generally caused by weight.  Electric vehicles don't weigh substantially less than a gas car.  A motor cycle does unless you have a 2000 to 4000 lb rider.  IMHO fairness is that those contributing to the damage pay their share of the maintenance and repairs.  If that can't be done through gas tax, another way needs to be developed.  How would you all propose to pay for the costs not being funded thru gas tax?
Gene

Offline magooch

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Well, first of all a very tiny fraction of vehicles on the road are all-electric, so you are supposing a problem that doesn't exist and probably will not ever exist, but how about we start by stopping foreign aid and the federal government could quit wasting billions on bogus electric car manufacturers and solar electric bankruptcies.  That might not do a thing for highways and roads, but it would set a tone.  States might consider ear-marking all fuel taxes, vehicle registration and license fees for road and highways and nothing else.  I know that my state wastes an enormous amount of money from what should be highway funds on providing lawyers to indigent lawbreakers, etc.


As I said, I would have no problem with a small extra fee for those vehicles that use no fuel at all, but even that is not fair.  It supposes that the vehicle gets driven significantly, which might, or might not be true.


My state makes more off gasoline and diesel sales than the oil companies, so there is plenty of money to take care of the roads if it isn't wasted on crap.
Swingem

Offline wolverine_1

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" I said, I would have no problem with a small extra fee for those vehicles that use no fuel at all, but even that is not fair."
 
I guess that to me, If a vehicle does 2000 lb of damage to the roads, it's owner/dirver should pay 2000 lb worth of maintenance & repair for the road.  That seems fair to me.  How we get to that is inconsequential.  We aren't there yet since many motorcycles pay more than their share and many trucks pay less than their share (based on loaded weight of the vehicle).  Gas/fuel tax was/is an attempt to approximate the above, however imperfect.  Now with electric and hybrid vehicles paying less/pound toward maintenance/repair, we need to find a way for them to pay their fair share.  It's the same with metal studs.  They do more damage and somehow should pay more, but no one has yet figured a politically fesable way to make that happen.  We are a nation of people who seem to think we should get it all given to us for free and that some one else should pay for it.  Electric/hybrid owners are no different than the rest of us.  Oh well, if we don't like the system, we should move.  Right?
Gene

Offline dwalk

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try hooking up your 35' travel trailer to your hybrid and towing it from Phoenix to Dallas... :-\
don't squat while wearing your spurs...will rogers

Offline magooch

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Here's the problem:  When government applies any fee, or tax of any kind on something, or someone, eventually it is forgotten (purposely) what the intent was.  It then becomes just another tax to be applied to everyone.  I guarantee you that if a special tax is placed on hybrids, or just all-electrics, it won't be long before you'll see it show up on your gas guzzler. 


And yes some states have figured out a way to get compensated for spiked tires.  It's called a tax.  Personally, I think the damn things should be outlawed.  They do more damage than all the trucks put together.  And by the way, since trucks are primarily engaged in commerce, guess who would pay the bill if trucks were taxed at a rate that really reflects the wear and tear they cause.  None of any of this means I don't believe everyone should pay their share, it's just that I distrust governments at all levels and we need to be very careful what we advocate.
Swingem

Offline Anna

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No one should be telling us what to do with our vehicles or how we choose to run them.
As long as that's within public safety. You want a wimp for a car go for it.
You want an earth moving gas guzzler go for it. Free Enterprise and free will go hand in hand.

Offline Doublebass73

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Most states squander the money they get from gas tax revenues and tolls. My home state only spends about 60% of gas tax and toll revenue on road maintenance and spends the rest on other things. Then they cry poor mouth and say we need to raise the gas tax to fix all the crumbling roads.
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

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Offline mechanic

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I don't believe the figures are accurate.  Many states, and I believe the feds get a percentage of sale.  If I am correct, they have increased revenue already, as the price of gasoline has risen.
Government has involved itself in so many things it should not have, now they don't have money for the things they are supposed to do.
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Offline gypsyman

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Some major highways have tolls, Ohio turnpike,some parts of the W.Virginia turnpike. Wouldn't be hard to set up a payment like your water bill. Go to the local municipal and pay on a schedule, every 3-4 months or whatever. My problem is, being a govt. run plan, I have faith. It'll get screwed up. gypsyman
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Offline SHOOTALL

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If you use the road you need to pay to maintain it. Scooters, Mopeds, bicycles, or anything other than pedestrians should help foot the bill.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Soilman

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By the way.  North Carolina ALREADY has one of the highest state gas taxes in the nation at 37.5 cent per gallon...an it still isn't enough for them!

Offline Anna

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Two thousand years ago roads were built and funded by the spoils you took off your enemy's that
you had beaten in wars. Or it was a big thing to have a certian section named after you because
you funded its construction and maintained it. Or you could name it anything you wanted too like
after a deceased loved one. Certian favors and status was attached to this practice it was fashionable
to have a road dedicated to you. Even then the government had its own certian mining operations
it would oversee to supply the materials and labor to build the roads                                         


Lotterys were set up for this, citizens would volunteer their own time and the army would chip in
when they had nothing else to do. Then there were the slaves but nowadays we call that staffing
agencys. One of the biggest sources of labor was not the slaves, it was those who were on the government dole. You worked on the roads until you found a job or you didn't get your entitlements.
This was the most productive answer of all and the army oversaw this labor force. For close to two
hundred years it was the welfare like class that built the roads. As the roads came through your area
you were assigned to that particular road. A practice that became so popular those on the dole even
started working on all public works projects. Not a bad practice when you think about it.


If your going to pay for bums anyway you may as well benifit from that. Plus the crime rates went
down in the areas where this was being used. So the army ended up having a lot of time own its
hands to help build and maintain the roads. In other words everyone chipped in, roads are a
testamony to civilization and civilized people are not bums looking for a free handout.

Offline SHOOTALL

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great idea bring back the CCC and WPA .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline dwalk

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California has 30 cent plus tax per gallon, the fed tax of 18.5 cents per gal and they were talking about tripling auto registrations to raise money.


that would mean i'd have to come up with $600.00 just to register a 4 year old Toyota.
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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This is really simple! Donno why it's such a difficult problem for the states. :-\ Just get rid of the fuel tax altogether and go to a flat tax on all vehicle registrations, pro rated for vehicle weight.
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Offline Dixie Dude

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I read somewhere that the Feds take in $400 billion in highway taxes off gasoline and diesel fuel each year, BUT only $200 billion go back to the states for highway construction and repairs.  The rest is used elsewhere, just like social security, borrowed from the cash producing taxes and spend it on welfare, food stamps, section 8 housing, and aid to dependent children.  Why not just use taxes for what they were originally supposed to be used for, then maybe people will know what they are paying taxes for? 

Offline Anna

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I say let the army crack a whip and put the bums to work. You ever notice that you can tell the 
welfare shoppers from the ones who work for a living?
The welfare shopper is the one with a basket crammed full of things you wish you could afford.
The working shopper has far less and is going over a list budgeting what they can buy.
Welfare recipients unless they can prove otherwise, need to work for the money we give them.
And like all the rest of us be subject to random drug screening. This would free up billions for road
and bridge maintenance and construction. Stupid Congress they are making themselves useless.

Offline SHOOTALL

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This is really simple! Donno why it's such a difficult problem for the states. :-\ Just get rid of the fuel tax altogether and go to a flat tax on all vehicle registrations, pro rated for vehicle weight.
Forget that I live in a state with two of the busiest north south interstates in the country. If only the citizens of the state pay for roads then the burden will be too high when use is by others. 
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline mcwoodduck

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This is really simple! Donno why it's such a difficult problem for the states. :-\ Just get rid of the fuel tax altogether and go to a flat tax on all vehicle registrations, pro rated for vehicle weight.
Uhhh,
California has a fuel tax.
It has at least an 8.25% sales tax on the car sale depending on where you live and not what county you buy the car in.
It has a 10% luxury car tax  on c ars over $50,000 and it is not 10% of the amount over 50.  If you buy a car that is 50,000 you pay 5K in taxes on the car plus the 8.25% + sales tax on the car. 
It has a personal property tax when it comes to your auto.  and you pay a percentage of what the state says is the value of your car.to register it each year.
What makes you think the State morons will ever reduce or eliminate a tax?  Even though it would allow people to buy new cars, and that would increase sales, increase sales taxes and then increase profits and increase total tax incomes and remove older poluting cars from the roads.  Instead .....