Finshing the build - Carving & Engraving

[AtlLaw]

While I haven't done much on the actual rifle, I've been really busy trying my hand at carving.  My lack of progress bothered me until I remembered "haste makes waste"  And, after 20 years, why should I get in a hurry now!?   
 
So I began my learning process with a maple board and a set of "beginner's" carving tools I bought many years ago.  The first attempt was straight lines and then a few curves.
 
Let me tell you, I spent a lot of time on that French Curve ruler outline; but I also learned a lot!

[AtlLaw]

Now that the darn "Forbidden" seems to be gone for a while I'll try to continue this thread.  Gotta do it now cause Kathie and I are leaving for San Antonio in the morning for my club's National meeting!   
 
Anyway, First I learned those cheap carving tool are just about worthless!      I spent hours trying to get them sharp and was only partially successful...     So I got a good parting tool with less then a 90 degree angle to the V; a 12-3 Swiss made one that came sharpened, honed and polished!      It was only then that I saw what really sharp was!  Now I can understand how Homer Dangler can shave off curls of wood like he does in that video snippet on Utube!
 
So I decided to practice a bit more with decent, sharp chisels!   
 
Since I had a full scale image of the carving I am going to use, I transferred the part that goes under the nose of the comb in front of the cheek piece to the maple board and took chisel in hand!   

[AtlLaw]

I tell ya, I learned so much carving that little bit I decided to transfer the rest of the design onto the board and carve the whole side!   

[JonnyReb]

 Looks like a good start, step by step and no rushing. I admire you for trying.
  Really does make you appreciate the genious it takes to create a 3d picture in metal or wood.  Along with incredible detail, beautiful carvings seem to possess lots of depth.  J

[AtlLaw]

All the carving is done now.  It took a whole lot less time then my first attempt and came out pretty good if I do say so my own self!   
 
I'm in the detailing stage right now which will take a lot longer to complete then the carving!      I'll post a pic after we get back from TX and I have time to complete it.   
 
When I'm done I think I'll stain it with Aqua Fortis and varnish it...     Just to get an idea of what the color will be don't cha know!   

[JonnyReb]

Awesome, i want to see what you think of the aqua fortis before i try some myself. Have a safe trip.  Jeff

[necchi]

All the carving is done now. ,,
  I'll post a pic after we get back from TX

Well!?
Inquiring minds an all,,

[AtlLaw]

Well!?

Patience my friend... patience!   
 
We just got back from TX.  But I did take another picture last night even though I'm not close to having completed all the sanding, etc.  I'll post it when I get home. 
 
Unfortunately the "pretty good" I stated earlier looks more and more like "pretty bad" the more I try to clean it up!     And I haven't even taken it out in the daylight yet!!!   

[pastorp]

Wonder what Picasso's first painting looked like?  don't be discouraged.

[AtlLaw]

True Byron... true.     But I do get a little disappointed in myself.   
 
Maybe I should just consider it training for the disappointment I'm bound to suffer when I try engraving!   
 
Anyway, here's the pic.  Just remember, I've got a lot of detail work to do to it before I try putting on the finish!
 
 

[Oldshooter]

Richard that is nothing to be ashamed of, looks good to me! You aint buiding no coonskin cap coon buster there! Thats a work of art!
 
Randy

[briarpatch]

That is the best one I ever seen on GBO.  Good job Richard, I like it.
I'd be so proud of it, I'd take it to Church.

[pastorp]

And for those that be critical of Totten a gun to church, just remember they bombed Pearl Harbor on a Sunday. 

[necchi]

Richard that is nothing to be ashamed of, looks good to me!

That is the best one I ever seen on GBO.  Good job Richard, I like it.

That about say's it all 
You've chosen a pretty complicated carving there for a first timer, it's coming along real well.
Mine won't be like that,, 

[AtlLaw]

Well thankee guys!  Praise from y'all is high praise indeed!   
 
I'm just about finished detailing the carving; I just want to try one more thing.  Once I do that I'll be ready to apply the finish.  Which is why I changed the title!   
 
I haven't done the final sanding yet and may not...    I've sanded it twice and don't need anymore practice sanding!     I'll raise the grain once before I apply the finish though.
 
Anyway, I'm thinking of trying a number of variations of an Aqua Fortus stain and oil finish:
 
1 application of AF under a clear varnish;
2 applications of AF under a clear varnish;
1 application of AF and 1 application of red stain under a clear varnish;
1 application of AF under a mixture (5/1 maybe ?) of clear varnish and red stain.
 
I'm partial to a nice warm brown with a red tint in a finish and am anxious to see what these variations give me.  Any suggestions before I start?   
 
 

[necchi]

2 applications of AF won't gain ya anything.
Once the acid is on the wood,, it's on the wood
Put it on heavy once, spread evenly, heat blush completely or you'll get that green tinge and I always neutralize with  household ammonia and rinse.
 
The ways of  "finish"  are so varied and so subject to myth and opinion I'm always hesitant  to speak about it.
 
 

[AtlLaw]

2 applications of AF won't gain ya anything.

See!  It's great to be able to get the benefit of others first hand experience!     I'd read somewhere that a subsequent coat of AF would darken the stain.  Not having ever used AF I thought I'd give it a try.  Now I don't have to!!! 
 

The ways of  "finish"  are so varied and so subject to myth and opinion I'm always hesitant  to speak about it.

PLEASE!     Don't hesitate!!!    I've read volumes on finishing wood, been refinishing gunstocks for decades, have a box full of different stains, a bigger box full of different brands of varnish (lessee here,    I know I have  Behlens, Watco, Formby's, Waterlox - haven't tried the Waterlox yet - and some type of butcher block varnish to name a few  ) and I still can't decide what I like best...   

I feel I can always benefit from not just the experience of others, but even their thoughts on a subject.  For example:  In the test piece where I plan to stain over the AF and under the finish, and another piece where I plan to mix the stain with the finish, I was going to use Minwax Red Oak.  Someone may say that a penetrating oil base stain doesn't mix well with most varnishes or that the red oak washes out to much and I would get a better tint if I used Sedona Red.      At the very least those comments would make me research those areas before continuing.
 
And in any event, refinishing in itself is a fascinating topic; to me anyway.   

[AtlLaw]

OH!    And here's another picture of the carving.  99.9% ready for the finish.  Just need to cut in a couple more "beauty marks" and a final going over in direct sunlight with my magnifying visor on!   

[necchi]

Laurel Mountain Forge Alcohol based stains. Or Fiebings leather stains
http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/stain_colors%20v3.html
 
The individual colors can be thinned with their thinner or Denatured alcohol.
Thinning can help prevent "blotching" (like when you lay that wet pad on the wood the first time) and or lend a more even stain, more applications will darken the tone when it's thinned and let you sneak up on the shade you want, you don't have to thin the whole bottle just a few oz. for that rifle or work session.
 
Oil based stains carry a pigment and all they do is lay the pigment on the surface,, this is where you hear about color fading with time, it gets rubbed off. The Alcohol stains penetrate deeper.
When you reach the color,  varnish or oil is layed over the stain. Others will mix the color with the top coat.

Before the varnish/topcoat
More LMF, Permalyn sealer
http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/sealer.htm
This stuff as a first coat after stain will soak in deep and prevent moisture from creeping in through the years. Slather on till it's dripping off, (wood saturated) everywhere inside and out and don't forget the ramrod channel. Wait 30-45 minutes and wipe off excess, just make sure the wood won't take anymore.
 
I prefer a hand rubbed top coat finish of any of the proven commercial gun finish's-
Birchwood Casey True oil, LMF Permalyn Finish, Jim Chambers Traditional Oil finish.
Not some witches brew
 
A rifle isn't a piece of indoor furniture or an outside deck
 
 

[coyotejoe]

Richard, your carving makes me ashamed of any I've ever done and I've never even attempted anything that complex.

[SHOOTALL]

OH!    And here's another picture of the carving.  99.9% ready for the finish.  Just need to cut in a couple more "beauty marks" and a final going over in direct sunlight with my magnifying visor on!   

Impressive work !

[AtlLaw]

Thanks again boys!  I just hope it turns out as well when I do it on the curved stock!   
 

A rifle isn't a piece of indoor furniture or an outside deck

 
You know, that's exactly right!  And a heck ofa good way of looking at the subject!   
 

Laurel Mountain Forge Alcohol based stains. Or Fiebings leather stains

I have plenty of Fiebings stains since I use them for leatherwork but I always wanted to try the LM stuff.  But guess what!?  I must have had that thought before!  When I was looking through my stains last night I found I already had a bottle of LM Maple stain!     Just the right color!     'course I couldn't find my AF...    I musta put it somewhere where I was sure I could find it...    I hate being senile!   
 

The individual colors can be thinned with their thinner or Denatured alcohol.

Another great thought!  I've mixed stains before but never thought of thinning one for a lighter color.    
 

Thinning can help prevent "blotching" ... and or lend a more even stain,...

And yet another!     I've never had a "blotching" problem with walnut, but now that you mention it I did with the cherry stock on my Mtn. Rifle; had a heck of a time with it.    And of course leather is real bad about it...
 
I got an airbrush for my leather work and it eliminated the uneven dyeing problem.  What do you think about using an airbrush to apply dye to a riflestock?   
 

Oil based stains carry a pigment and all they do is lay the pigment on the surface...Others will mix the color with the top coat.

I wanted to try this because I've heard that that was the way it was done back in the day.     Additionally, I've heard that more pigment would settle in the edges/depressions of the carving and highlight the outline.  I'm sure I read somewhere that some makers even incise around the edges to insure this effect.  What cha think?   

Before the varnish/topcoat...Permalyn sealer

I have never tried this either, always having used a stain that was also advertised as a sealer.  I will hi-ebber, and day is always a hi-ebber, use it this time!  Thanks for the recommendation!  Looks like another order to LMF!  'specially since I can't find my AF... 
 

I prefer a hand rubbed top coat finish of any of the proven commercial gun finish's

You know, I've always used the finishes you most often see referred to when the subject of refinishing stocks comes up.  Probably the least known of which is WaterLox.  The reason I got some of that is because it is what the gunsmith who made my one and only true "custom" rifle swears by.
 
But in this instance I think I'll use some of Jim Chambers Traditional Oil finish like you mentioned.  I've never heard a bad thing said about it!  Do you know if there is a commercial outlet for that stuff?     I can only find it on his web page and only in the finish kit. 
 
So, here's what we have come up with so far!     All test areas will be given the AF treatment; then one area will get the LMF stain, then a filler wash, then a topcoat of Chamber's TOF.  Another section will get a mix of stain in a topcoat varnish.  I'll probably use a combination of more common stains and varnishes.
 
I really don't see a need to do a varnish alone over the AF anymore.     Maybe just as a control piece...

[AtlLaw]

I just went back to Jim Chamber's site and checked on his finish.  Still can't find it anywhere else.  A bottle costs $11 but shipping costs another $13!      

[necchi]

Air Brush?
Never tried one, but I don't see why it wouldn't work if your already practiced,
I've used a lot of Fiebings myself on leather and wood and it takes along time to buff off the extra color it leaves before the finish coats. Leather can especially weep color for along time.
I'm going with LMF stain because they have a shade I want and Track stocks the stuff, I'm lucky enough to have them 40miles away. (Or maybe they're the lucky ones, Dave's been getting the vast majority of my money)
I've seen the advice to thin LMF and sneak up on the color you want with multiple applications repeated by several of the Pro builders over the years. It makes sense cause if you've ever gone too dark with a shade the first time it's applied you know it's not very easy too Un-Stain wood when you've already got the rails down to 3/32 and the carving finished!!
 
I've used the Permalyn sealer under BC Tru Oil on a bunch of re-furbished factory guns now, the stuff is easy to work with and is almost like a step saver. It penetrates deep and set's up pretty quick
 (I always wait at least 10-12hrs)  then the wood has the seal so the top coat spreads further with that single drop application that hand rubbed is all about.
 
I guess Chambers is the only place you can get his stuff, but there's a bit of a mystery out there about the actual product in the can, he promotes LMF products and his 4oz can is the same size and shape as the LMF Permalyn Gun Stock Finish. A lot of guy's say the two products have very similar results.
 Chambers obviously has to be different or it would be infringement on LMF, but it doesn't take more than a 4oz change in the recipe of a 55gallon drum to make it different.
 
Chambers also offers full rifle kit's so guy's get it when they order, or live near his shop. I'll be buying a lock from him shortly for the next build so I'll get a can then but only if I can get just the finish, other wise I'll use the LMF.
 
The only beef I have with the ever present BC Tru-Oil is it does funny stuff around wet,,
If a BCTO gun is set against a tree or loading bench with dew on the grass,, or the gun is caught in the rain the finish will "cloud-over". It always comes back clear in my experience but it's an indication that water/wet does somehow effect the stuff. I personally haven't seen it but there's stories about BCTO showing hairline cracks if the gun get's wet a lot.
This weekends vous would be a case like that, rained 2" Friday night and the grounds at camp have a heavy clay base,, the high spots kinda dried out late this morning with puddles still on the low ground!!.
Keep that in mind if you set camp at Rendezvous, put the tent on a high spot!!
 
 

[AtlLaw]

I'm going with LMF

Me two!  Just sent an order in to T of the W!   
 

I've seen the advice to thin LMF and sneak up on the color you want with multiple applications

I included thinner in the order just to give this a try.  Makes sense to me...    I may increase the test areas to 1,2,3 etc. applications of thinned stain just to see how it does.
 

I've used the Permalyn sealer

I included that also!  I never tried a separate sealer so now's my chance.   
 

I guess Chambers is the only place you can get his stuff,

After reading your comment I just decided to go with the LMF Permalyn Finish.
 
LMF makes very similar claims as to their finishes abilities and I wouldn't be at all supprised if it was the same product as Chamber's oil, just repackaged - likely by LMF - under Chamber's name.  He could have gotten license from LMF to do that.  Also, the fact that he promotes other LMF products to be used in conjunction with his finish, and the fact that he doesn't wholesale his finish out to suppliers, therefore remaining a customer of and not competing with LMF, makes the supposition more valid to my mind.
 

if you set camp at Rendezvous, ...

Never happen!     Well, not unless they have a rendezvous at a five star hotel anyway! 
 
Thanks for all your input Necchi!  It really helped solidify this facet of the build in my mind! 

[SHOOTALL]

A rifle might be an outside deck , I have seen decks with great shapes on them and decks with  none. The ones with nice curves get the attention . just saying...........

[AtlLaw]

I have seen decks with great shapes on them ...

Me to!       Not mine for a very long time though...