Edward Snowden- NSA leaker- hero or traitor?

[mcwoodduck]

Well I guess I would have to say Patriot. 
He showed that we have a runaway dictator that has increased FISA warrents by ten fold with out probable cause.
When the government is violating 350 million people's 4th amendment rights and he brings it to the attention of the people then is he doing what is needed to preserve the Republic. 
The tapping of forgien phones was questionable but tapping every phone in the US is un acceptable.
ANd since we have a President that has used the IRS and other Government agencies to punish his rivals do you really want him listening to what you say on the phone or type here?  Even you die hard liberals do you want your E-mails nad phone calls recorded for the government to read?  Remember at some point a conservitive will be in charge again and do you want then readin what you have writen and said? 
Obama makes Carter look successful and Makes Nixon look happy go lucky. 
He is doing what you liberals all said Bush was doing and was not. 

[scootrd]

Well I guess I would have to say Patriot. 
He showed that we have a runaway dictator that has increased FISA warrents by ten fold with out probable cause.
When the government is violating 350 million people's 4th amendment rights and he brings it to the attention of the people then is he doing what is needed to preserve the Republic. 
The tapping of forgien phones was questionable but tapping every phone in the US is un acceptable.
ANd since we have a President that has used the IRS and other Government agencies to punish his rivals do you really want him listening to what you say on the phone or type here?  Even you die hard liberals do you want your E-mails nad phone calls recorded for the government to read?  Remember at some point a conservitive will be in charge again and do you want then readin what you have writen and said? 
Obama makes Carter look successful and Makes Nixon look happy go lucky. 
He is doing what you liberals all said Bush was doing and was not. 

The debate here should be the policy not Snowden.

That said , Rewriting history again?.
These programs did not start with  Obama admin. They were created under previous republican administration. They only came to light under present admin.  So it was the conservative republican admin that gave way to their birth. 

OOOPS!!!

 Bush Lets U.S. Spy on Callers Without Courts  By JAMES RISEN and ERIC LICHTBLAU Published: December 16, 2005   WASHINGTON, Dec. 15  - Months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved  warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials.
   
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/washington/16program.html?ref=foreignintelligencesurveillanceactfisa&_r=0


Side note :Republican party is broken / fractured . They are their own worse enemy and quickly becoming irrelevant.
I don't foresee a conservative "being in charge" for a very very long time. Although This has nothing to do with party lets at least keep the history straight. 

[Oldshooter]

Well Well Well, why in heavens name didn't barry rewrite history, he opposed the bush policies of surveillance when he was a jr senator, the Vp did as well, and we aren't in a war with terror anymore    why didn't barry cancel it with his hope and change and transparency. I don't care who started it, there was a war on terror then, right or wrong there was reasoning behind the domestic spying. Just how long is Bush blaming going to fly. Face it left wingers your guy is worse. I say more so because he bashed it and continued it. That makes barry a tad more culpable ya think.
 
I tend to give Bush credit due to the fact that when we were attacked , he called it what it was(terrorism) and tried to do something about it. barry says it isn't happening and still continues the tyranny!
 
And I Love hearing about bad conservative leadership and broken party propaganda, BS, the liberals are in power because they promised the yellow brick road but produced the poop chute. You have no credability if you cant see the hypocrisy of blaming bush after 5 years. It ain't about party, but scooter you love bringing it up constantly in the name of not rewriting history. your guy could have fixed this and just tweaked it to include the IRS.

[ChungDoQuan]

How could he fix anything with the most do-nothing congress in history doing ... nothing?

[Soilman]

Well, I'm sure I don't know the whole story, but from what I've seen, most traitors have some kind of personal gain for their actions.  I've not seen or heard of any personal gain by Snowden so far, so I gotta go with Mr. Paul for now.

[8uck5nort]

Snowden is a traitor if he loses his PR campaign. He is a hero if he wins. Nothing will change in DC. Both parties played a part. Personally, I believe you take care of your own internally. Don't go running to our advisaries, China, and hand them the keys to our proverbial kingdom to manage said personal PR campaign. :cynically: Snowden should make them pay dearly for it at the very least. Sad truth is they own a good chunk of us now anyway. Hollywood and most of our News media was one of there best investments. In a another generation we'll be singing Chairmen Mao's, our "Founding Father" holy praises. You simply make truth from lies by simply repeating them over and over and over... :end cynasism:
Bottom line is something stinks from Snowden, China, and DC... We don't know enough yet to make a informed opinion. Trust no one my friends especially those who "just want the best for you" types. They rarely have your interest at heart.
I'm getting too old for this non sense.

[mcwoodduck]

Well I guess I would have to say Patriot. 
He showed that we have a runaway dictator that has increased FISA warrents by ten fold with out probable cause.
When the government is violating 350 million people's 4th amendment rights and he brings it to the attention of the people then is he doing what is needed to preserve the Republic. 
The tapping of forgien phones was questionable but tapping every phone in the US is un acceptable.
ANd since we have a President that has used the IRS and other Government agencies to punish his rivals do you really want him listening to what you say on the phone or type here?  Even you die hard liberals do you want your E-mails nad phone calls recorded for the government to read?  Remember at some point a conservitive will be in charge again and do you want then readin what you have writen and said? 
Obama makes Carter look successful and Makes Nixon look happy go lucky. 
He is doing what you liberals all said Bush was doing and was not. 

The debate here should be the policy not Snowden.

That said , Rewriting history again?.
These programs did not start with  Obama admin. They were created under previous republican administration. They only came to light under present admin.  So it was the conservative republican admin that gave way to their birth. 

OOOPS!!!

 Bush Lets U.S. Spy on Callers Without Courts  By JAMES RISEN and ERIC LICHTBLAU Published: December 16, 2005   WASHINGTON, Dec. 15  - Months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved  warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials.
   
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/washington/16program.html?ref=foreignintelligencesurveillanceactfisa&_r=0


Side note :Republican party is broken / fractured . They are their own worse enemy and quickly becoming irrelevant.
I don't foresee a conservative "being in charge" for a very very long time. Although This has nothing to do with party lets at least keep the history straight.

I did not re write history .  I simply said that Barry has increased the request / demand for warrents by 10 fold and has gone from a forgien element to spying on any and all US citizens.  I never said I agreed with the Bush use of this. But the CIA is allowed to spy on forgien citizens outside of the US, the FBI is to keep track of the Forgien nationals inside the US and now we have Home land security that is to fight terrorist attacking us here.  But at what point do you make the enemies list?
My point is if BHO is going after his political enemies under the guise of security and using the IRS to do it at what point can another Nixon do the same to you?  Had this been a Republican  doing this you would be up in arms and screaming about your 4th amendment rights. 

[SHOOTALL]

Remember the battle cry of the liberals "NEVER WASTE A CRISIS" nuff said.

[nw_hunter]

Well Well Well, why in heavens name didn't barry rewrite history, he opposed the bush policies of surveillance when he was a jr senator, the Vp did as well, and we aren't in a war with terror anymore    why didn't barry cancel it with his hope and change and transparency. I don't care who started it, there was a war on terror then, right or wrong there was reasoning behind the domestic spying. Just how long is Bush blaming going to fly. Face it left wingers your guy is worse. I say more so because he bashed it and continued it. That makes barry a tad more culpable ya think.
 
I tend to give Bush credit due to the fact that when we were attacked , he called it what it was(terrorism) and tried to do something about it. barry says it isn't happening and still continues the tyranny!
 
And I Love hearing about bad conservative leadership and broken party propaganda, BS, the liberals are in power because they promised the yellow brick road but produced the poop chute. You have no credability if you cant see the hypocrisy of blaming bush after 5 years. It ain't about party, but scooter you love bringing it up constantly in the name of not rewriting history. your guy could have fixed this and just tweaked it to include the IRS.

Dividing us is what these rouge elected officials are good at.Look at the responses here on GB outdoors and any other site where we discuss politics and current affairs.The old left vs right,Rep vs Dem, Lib vs Con. They love it when they see us behaving this way. Their doing their job well


Every Administration we have had since memory serves has been about passing the baton of bondage to the next leader.
Nothing new here!Same thing in the House and Senate.We are being played by them all.


IMO Bush should be talked about for his part in this overall usurping of our God given rights. Anyone who's been a part of it should be.
Including this current pack of wolves who are doing even more to enslave us.Don't spare any of them!


Getting back to the topic and the question asked about Mr Snowden, here is what Judge Napolitano has to say about him. Personally I agree with the judge.


http://www.lewrockwell.com/napolitano/napolitano105.html

[yellowtail3]

Getting back to the topic and the question asked about Mr Snowden, here is what Judge Napolitano has to say about him. Personally I agree with the judge.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/napolitano/napolitano105.html

  +1

[SHOOTALL]

Treason is betrayal of trust. Ok We the people are the govt. not the elected officials they are only allowed to carry on our (we the peoples) business for us.  If you don't agree check out the Constitution. So is the guy responsible to a govt. official ? or We the people ? We the people paid his wage.

[BBF]

China and Russia take violating their airspace very seriously. A drone wouldn't get far.

[SHOOTALL]

China and Russia take violating their airspace very seriously. A drone wouldn't get far.

Even if it could it might not be wise . And that is the worry. 

[BBF]

How could he fix anything with the most do-nothing congress in history doing ... nothing?

BULLSH*T !!
He had both Houses in his fist term.

[lakota]

How could he fix anything with the most do-nothing congress in history doing ... nothing?

I hate to break it to you pal-he had a rubber stamp congress for a good portion of his first term. He could have killed the Patriot act, hell he could have done pretty much anything he wanted to, but instead he chose to stuff a healthcare bill that nobody wanted down our throats. Face it your man Barry is just an extension of G.W. Bush. The 2 are no different in many areas and Barry is worse in many areas. Don't blame Congress. St. Barack was spying on us because St. Barack wanted to, not because Congress was making him do it.

[SHOOTALL]

How could he fix anything with the most do-nothing congress in history doing ... nothing?

 
In most cases a do nothing congress is the best , one in gridlock is good also. No new laws. But he had a pass any law congress with out reading it. Glad you admit they didn't do us any good.

[magooch]

The problem is that the War on Terror is not over and all the bad guys are not over seas and in fact a lot of them are American citizens living right here among us.  I for one would have been more than happy if the Boston Bombers would have been detected and stopped before they did their evil.


While GWB was President the United States was not successfully attacked after the initial 9-11 attack.  Who believes that was just a matter of luck and not diligent work by our security agencies?  The entire NSA program was approved and is still approved by both parties in Congress and they have legal oversight, so at least if the system is off the rails the responsibility rests with both the executive and legislative branches.  Now that the whistle has been thoroughly blown, those entities are the ones that need to fix it.  Snowden might not have done it the "right" way and he will probably pay the price for that, but he should get some credit for having a pair.

[SHOOTALL]

to much party line voting and not enough common sense voting.

[scootrd]

And I Love hearing about bad conservative leadership and broken party propaganda, BS,

I'll I'm sayin is if we are to have an honest debate , Hero ,Traitor or policy pros and cons at least lets not rewrite historical facts. and I was not the one to inject political party affiliations into this thread and begin the blame game crap that these threads always seem to digress into.

It's the dems fault , it's the Republicans fault etc.. missing the opportunity to debate the actual policy or issue on its own merits.
 

[Oldshooter]

Everyone here has been around for a few years, we lived 9/11 we witnesed what came after. Who likes the patriot act, fact is it prolly saved some lives. Dont matter who started it. I can tell you I'm glad it werent barry and his regime. We dont need the reminder who started this surveilance, barry campaigned against it and did nothing but carry on . Is he an idiot now or was he one during his campaign.
 
As far as Snowden, I need more information. Right now he looks like a hero, but I have been known to look gift horses in the mouth.

[BBF]

If nothing else, the Chinese are happy to have him.

[SHOOTALL]

There were ways to address his grievances he broke the law. 

[nw_hunter]

There were ways to address his grievances he broke the law.

Would you find him guilty in a court of law, if you were on Jury?

[mcwoodduck]

There were ways to address his grievances he broke the law.

If the government is doing something very illegal, is it really whistle blowing? 
Let me put it this way, If I were to make you sign a non dislcosure act and had you involved illegal things are you bound by a document that has you hiding  crimes? 
Soldiers do not have to follow an illegal or imoral order.   Is this an illegal or imoral order? 
By telling us that the government was illegally violating our 4th amendment rights with a secret court that never has never declined a government request for a warrant, is that really due process?  And if a secret court can issue a warrent to listen to your phone at what point cna that same court issue an arrest record and keep it sealed, and hold you with out your rights due to a pending case and furtherance of the ongoing crime, that never goes to trial. 
 

[BIGDAVE54]

let it play out...only "Time will tell"

Are you serious? He's going to be hunted and killed and the story will read that he was armed and fired on authorities. I hope he gets asylum in Russia and sings like a canary.

I have to agree. I spent 5 very hard years in the USAF during the Vietnam war for this country.My wife is a disabled veteran from the War. She flew on C9 Nightengales bringing wounded back from Southeast Asia.into Wilford Hall in San Antonio(she was a med tech.). Back then it was known as Big Willie and any soldier from any branch that was severely burned anywhere on the face of this planet would be flown into Big Willie through Kelly or Randolf AFB. Most C9s were out of Scott AFB.Any way I don't know this country any more. When I was in the military we could be shot for communicating with Red China. Today it is still owned and operated by the Red Chinese Army ,but our country treats them like family and owes them several trillion dollars.
  We owe this money because the Ivy Leaguers don't pay tax any more. I guess no one does much.The middle class is gone in this country. Our manufacturing base is gone,and we are flooded with hundreds of thousands of people from south of the border.Estimates are that there are more than 50,000 illegals from Ireland here. Who shot down the budget for the Border Patrol 2 decades ago? To me that is worse than anything this lil geek did. BTW the CIA is banned from domestic spying. I believe they should go to jail for that. They spied without warrants or wire taps signed by a judge. The biggest thing the CIA ever did was haul opium and heroin for their buddies in SE Asia. They also perfected crack cocaine and brought tons of it here so Ronald Reagan could fight the Sandinestas in Nicaraugua. When was the last time they stopped a bombing here? Never...They are notorious for being a day late and a dollar short. They talk tough and do nothing...Leave this little guy alone CIA and get a life.

[yellowtail3]

The biggest thing the CIA ever did was haul opium and heroin for their buddies in SE Asia. They also perfected crack cocaine and brought tons of it here so Ronald Reagan could fight the Sandinestas in Nicaraugua. When was the last time they stopped a bombing here? Never...They are notorious for being a day late and a dollar short. They talk tough and do nothing...Leave this little guy alone CIA and get a life.

Don't know about the CIA, but the FBI is all the time saving us from terrorists. Here's how they do it: they get an undercover to egg on some would-be jihadi to indulge in jihadist fantasy... provide him with fake explosives... help him build a fake bomb... then arrest him when he plants it, and tout this as a great victory in the War on Terror.
doncha feel safe & secure now?

[magooch]

I'd be curious to know exactly what suggestions some of you fellas (and gals) might have to stop the terrorists before they are able to wreak havoc on us again and again.   Not that I believe everything the government is doing now, or in the past has been completely successful, or necessary, but we do know that several plots have been foiled.  I would also suspect that some plots have been stopped and no news has been leaked out about it, because it would tip off the terrorist about our methods and techniques.


My own preference would be for our government to secure, our borders, kick all non-citizens out who aren't thoroughly cleared and maybe even get us the heck out of the middle east.  All muslims would be free to leave this country as soon as possible.  None of that might prevent future acts of terrorism, but it would make me feel better.



 

[mcwoodduck]

I'd be curious to know exactly what suggestions some of you fellas (and gals) might have to stop the terrorists before they are able to wreak havoc on us again and again.   Not that I believe everything the government is doing now, or in the past has been completely successful, or necessary, but we do know that several plots have been foiled.  I would also suspect that some plots have been stopped and no news has been leaked out about it, because it would tip off the terrorist about our methods and techniques.


My own preference would be for our government to secure, our borders, kick all non-citizens out who aren't thoroughly cleared and maybe even get us the heck out of the middle east.  All muslims would be free to leave this country as soon as possible.  None of that might prevent future acts of terrorism, but it would make me feel better.

Show me where it worked on listening to US phone calls?  Even the Boston Bombers had a forgien connection and the earlier warrents required a forgien element to listen to  their phone calls and the FBI, Home land Security, the CIA, DIA, and Boston State police and Boston PD did not stop the attack.  So why are we now violating the Phone calls and E-mails of US citizens of we can not stop the people we originally targeted with this violation of of the 4th and 1st amendments. 
Should my phone calls and E-mails be stored and possibly later used against me in a political attack? 

[Gary G]

Ed Snowden is the Paul Revere warning of enemy encroachment against the people.
He is the Thomas Paine exposing the corruption inherent to big government.
He is the Patrick Henry calling for liberty verses a coercive government.


Big government will paint him as a subversive, a loser, and any other derogatory term their shallow minds can invent. Their media lapdogs will follow abide with them.


Keep up with it here:
 [size=78%]http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/edward-snowden-worst-fear-not-realised[/size]
and here:
http://drudgereport.com/
and here:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/


Dear NSA, keep this in your Stasi piggy bank for future reference or until freedom of speech is forbidden.

[Gary G]

Anyone saying not a hero, listen to this:
http://lewrockwell.com/yk/us-spy-leviathan.html