BP in 45-70BC

[bersa380]

I want to try shooting Black Powder in my 45-70 buffalo classic. I already relaod with smokeless powder for it. I ordered some 2f black powder. What else do I need? Can I use the same cast bullets I use with the smokeless loads? I read something about them needing to be soft for bp shooting.

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[quickdtoo]

Here's a good read for ya, Junior used Pyrodex, but the loading is pretty much the same as he mentions. 

Tim

http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/1871.htm

[TedH]

Your bullets don't have to be soft, you can use the same lead you're using for your smokeless loads, but you will need a different lube.  I like a 50/50 mix of beeswax and Crisco with a little olive oil.  Make sure you compress your powder, and you will also want to use either a lube cookie, or a .030" cardboard wad under the base of the bullet.  Some black powder likes a lot of compression, other brands not as much, but they all will need to have zero air space between bullet and powder.  Just like loading smokeless, there are a lot of variables to play with.  You should however be able to get a load that will shoot into 2 moa or less with minimal effort, assuming your twist rate is a good fit to your bullet weight.  That seems to be more of a factor with black than smokeless.

[gcrank1]

FWIW, as I dont shoot a lot of BP in cartridges, but have been around this a fair bit:
A lot of the original BP loads used bore, not groove dia. bullets, and the soft lead 'bumped up' to fill the grooves from the BP smack behind. If your bullets fits the throat of your rifle and it is at least groove dia. you are already there so no bump up required. A soft lube helps to soften the BP fouling (something like 40% of BP is left behind as fouling). If your bullet profile has relatively deep grease grooves (I like TC Bore Butter for 'finger-lubing' because I have it, otherwise I 'pan-lube' with a homemade mix) and you get a 'lube-star' at the muzzle after shooting a few (the lube expands outward as the bullet exits the barrel and leaves some lube trails in a 'star' pattern) then your lube is lasting the length of the barrel so no 'lube-cookie' is required. I have taken apart some old original loads of various BP cartridges and none had a card wad between bullet and powder, but that does not mean you shouldnt try it, but not with a HB design. I prefer to use cases that are fully fire-formed to the chamber, not resized unless your bullet is a way sloppy/loose fit in the neck, in which case you NEED a larger dia. bullet, not a resized case neck. For trials, if you MUST resize to hold the bullet you have resize just the neck to hold the bullet, but dont expect great results (if you get them, go for it, Im all for what works for ya ).
So, as said, use the bullets you have first with some soft lube and a little compression and just enough crimp to hold em all together and see what happens!

[SlimPigguns]

Seeing this thread has given me an urge to try BP in my BC. I have 405gn hard cast slugs. Would the FFF BP I use in my percussion revolvers be suitable? Regards - Pete

[gcrank1]

Yes

[quickdtoo]

If'n I were to load BP in my 45-70 H&Rs, it would be 3f, it always fouled less than 2f in my muzzleloaders.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,200381.msg1099033149.html#msg1099033149

[bikerbeans]

slim,
 
3F sounds good but BPCRs usually are shot with a soft lead alloy boolit.  1:10, 1:20 & 1:30 tin to lead ratios are common.  Also, smokeless powder lubes aren't really meant for use in BPCRs, I am assuming since you said hard cast that your bullets are lubed for smokeless powder.
 
BB

[LaOtto222]

You are always welcome to do most anything you want. Personally, I gave up shooting BP a long time ago. Sold my T/C Renegade and  made a wall hanger out of my 1860 Colt replica. It seemed no matter how much I cleaned and oiled, the dang guns rusted. That smoke residue gets EVERY where, even inside, rusting up the works. I did not get the accuracy I thought I should, unless I bought expensive special bullets. They were not much cheaper to shoot that smokeless loads, sometimes more expensive. To me, it just was not worth the extra effort. I know there are folks that really enjoy shooting BP, I sure hope you are one of them. You do realize that there are good reasons they do not sell cartridges loaded with BP and corrosive primers any more. I understand that there is a BP substitute that will not corrode, but why bother in a cartridge gun? Just shoot reduced smokeless to start with, like Trail Boss or Unique.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

[LONGTOM]

LaOtto222:
 
I too used to have the rust problems with my BP guns.
No matter what I used to clean them and lube them after they always seemed to rust.
I quit cleaning them with any type of liquid cleaners and now all I do is first a couple of patches down the bore dry to knock out the worst of it.
Then a few passes with a bore brush followed by a few passes with a bore snake.
Lastly I push a well lubed patch down the bore once and wipe down the out sides with the same patch and put it away.
No more rusting at all.
Next year just put a couple of patches through to get rid of the lube and you have a shinny bore ready to shoot.
For a lube I use the old yellow RIGG grease and use plenty of it.
Works for me!!!
 
 
LONGTOM

[gcrank1]

Something that has not been said regarding BP in cartridges is that you MUST clean the cases, and the sooner the better. Many BPCR shooters have a jug of soapy water next to them to drop the cases right into. When they get home an interior brushing is recommended, some hot water double flushing, decapping and thorough drying. One of my friends uses an old colander (kitchen stuff) for drain & flush and lays out the cases on the trays for his food dehydrator to 'cook' the moisture out, then into the case tumbler.
For me it is more work taking care of the brass than the rifle. If you dont do this the brass will rot and lose its integrity (not a good thing for brass or us either).
BTW, after a good BP gun cleanup I come back a day later and do some more, then use a WD-40, well sopped patch downbore and a wipedown of all that is metal. After years of using all kinds of 'magic' wonder-stuff I always came back to this, and it just plain works. I can come back weeks, or even months later and run another one downbore and get NO rusty looking crud.

[SlimPigguns]

Thanks for the advice on case cleaning. I had not considered that. I gave up on percussion revolvers for single action because of the cleaning involved after a days shooting, but I kept a 58 Rem Uberti for the occasional blast. I get good cleaning results starting with Windex glass cleaner, then warm soapy water, a warm rinse, followed by a pouring boiling water over and through the revolver. Dry off ,then lube. Pete

[bersa380]

I have seen guys decapping and cleaning their brass after a match always wondered why. Does it hurt to leave them loaded with BP before firing or is it only after firing where it becomes a problem for the brass? Also I bought 2f because it was labeled as being for rifles and 3 f was for shotguns.

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[gcrank1]

No problem using the 2F, just shoot it and enjoy the wiff  .
Brass that is loaded will have issues over time. We have pulled down vintage loads and tried to reuse the brass and it goes; there is an explanation somewhere (from a chemical analysis viewpoint,IIRC) of why, but I dont remember it. Something about a 'leeching' of the alloy?.......We have pulled apart some loads made only a year old and the powder was crusting up inside and sticking to the brass. Remember what a little BP on external brass does to it; with only a hint of moisture content in the BP this will be happening inside a case.
Soooo....I suggest loading only what you expect to shoot up fairly soon.
BTW, I kept a '58 Remmy also for the same reason, and havent shot it in years now.
Sure do like Trail Boss in my BP cartidge guns.

[Mike in Virginia]

I realize an important time period in our history involved blackpowder cartridges.  But for me, I ain't putting no blackpowder in my B/C Classic.  It's my favorite rifle.  I can adjust loads way up and down the scale with smokeless and not worry about all the trouble of keeping it from rust.  I think blackpowder is for muzzleloaders, which I own, and they are very fun, and the trouble of cleaning is expected.  The lock work of a muzzleloader is much simpler than a cartridge gun and easier to clean.  Less moving parts. 

[Stuart C.]

I'm still new to the game but I've had a lot of fun with bp in my BC, both goex and Swiss. Cleanup has just been part of the process, and with the right lube, it's not so bad. Between each shot I'm using the blow tube and one dry patch with excellent results so far.  The biggest hurdles in my limited experience... you need a soft bullet at least .459 and you need to compress ~.3+ to get anywhere close to 70 gr and fit the completed round in the chamber.
 
De-prime and soak your cases asap.
Two wet patches down the bore before you leave the range + Full cleanup at home later = No rust.
 
But...not to hijack but question please...
 
If I do load some smokeless rounds, what powders do people like? I've heard of Trail boss and Unique, but Alliant considers Unique a pistol and shotshell only powder.      Thanks!