TT-30 Tokarev Pistols, Someone School me on these?

[flmason]

Hi All,
    Have wanted a Colt 1903 pistol since I was a kid... but most are on .32, the .380's bring a premium and these days either really carries a collectors premium...

Enter the Tokarev... shameless clone in a lot of ways... interesting, if unusual in the States, cartridge.

But seems there's plenty of variants.

Anyone know which are the best and how to identify them?

Any other interesting info?

[Mikey]

Fl:  Love the Toks.  Once you get one you will wonder why you waited so long.  Yes, they are nicely sized like the 1903 Colts but they are a much different pistol.  Not a clone of the Colt at all.  Fedor Tokarev adapted some of the swing-link delayed blowback features of the 1911 system but that was about it.  The singular unit design of the hammer-sear set-up is a unique and ingenious design that includes the cartridge feed lips which are incorporated into most current (and 1911) magazine designs, and which are credited with most current magazine problems.  The Tokarev does not suffer from those problems.  The TT-30 does not have a external safety, the half cock (actually, about a 1/3rd cock) notch design of the hammer is much stronger than the half cock notch on the 1911s and is quite secure.  Unless your hammer is of such poor metalurgical quality or is weak from age (doubtful), a typical fall from a counter-top directly on the hammer will not cause the pistol to fire. 
 
The newer models, the TT-33 and variants made by other comm-bloc countries may or may not carry a external safety and the only downside is that for the Chinese Type 54-1 variant is that the batf safety design (for importation purposes) is just ass backwards of the 1911 and something you have to get used to.  My Chinese Type 54-1 was of such poor quality that the safety kept breaking and falling out, so I just covered the safety hole with tape and continued to use the pistol as it was designed, to be carried with the hammer on half cock, and it has worked for me that way for the lat 22 years. 
 
I believe the Romanian variant is a little longer in the grip and carries one additional round, which would make you two rounds illegal in ny, if you give a squat. 
 
Just about every Tok I have ever seen or handled is a mil-spec/mil-surp type pistol.  External workmanship is military quality with either a parkerized type black finish or even polished black, but certainly not up to the same quality as a US made blue steel pistol.  Internal workmanship quality is also not to US gunmaker quality but it really does not matter a bit, these pistols function and work they way they should, reliably.  Metalurgy in teh Chinese variants is not to US specs, but the pistols function and are reliable.
 
The cartridge they were originally designed for is just about the most powerful semi-auto pistol cartridge around and has been with us since 1892/3 when it was first designed and used in the Borchart Pistol.  Paul Mauser stole the design from Hugo Borchart, the designer of the Borchart pistol and used it in his Model 1896 (C-96) pistol which was originally designed by two Swiss designers, the Vetterelli brothers.  The Commies liked the cartridge so much that Fedor Tokarev modified it ever so slightly and called it the 7.62x25mm Tokarev.  This cartridge is extremely powerful and is known for its penetrability.  The only thing that makes it a better defensive round is a soft nose or hollow-point bullet and those are made by both Hornady and Speer in .308 (best size) for reloading.  Some European commercially made cartridges wear hollow-points.  Ron Reed, a sponsor and moderator on Greybeard Outdoors makes 7.62x25mm ammo specifically for the Tok.  I would love to see someone design a Keith style semi-wadcutter for the 30 bore pistol as I feel the power of this cartridge along with its ability to penetrate deeply would make it a fine field cartridge.  As for the power of the cartridge - any US gunmaker with half a brain could have outdone Tokarev with another slight cartridge re-design and called it anything they wanted and it would have outpowered anything the 327 could get to and with more rounds in the mag; and any time they would like to take the Tokarev pistol itself and make it a more 'US friendly design' they would have a sure fire winner (just please don't chamber the damn thing in 9mm).
 
As for which one should you consider - I would go the Romanian route, they seem to be the best quality available today but understand that the magazines for the Romanian variant do not fit the other variants so if you decide to get a Tok and go the Romanian route, get a bunch of extra magazines.
 
I am thinking of buying a box of Hornady 60 gn XTP slugs for the 32 auto to see how they perform as reloads in the Tok and we shall see  how they perform.  I have used the Hornady 85 gn soft nose over 6 gns of Unique or 13 of H110, both for factory duplication loads, and they are accurate performers.  I'm also thinking about trying to find some of the slugs uesed in the 327 and see how they shoot in the Tok.
 
One of the nice things about the Tok is its size - slim and fairly lightweight, it slides right into my belt and literally cannot be seen.  If carried with the hammer on full-cock and the safety on, as with the way you carry the 1911, it is just as fast to bring to action and once you touch off one of those rounds on a public range with bystanders around you will have a lot of guys asking you 'hey, what the hell was that you just fired'.  Have fun.

[flmason]

Have to admit, the cartridge is part of the attraction... strikes me as significantly better, energy-wise than a .380.  Also, I believe I read you can fabricate the cartridges from .223... reading that I said... "excellent... just like 8mm Mauser can be made from '06... I can make these too..."  so worries about ammo evaporated... Seems like hot little cartridge, to be sure.

But... the d@mn frenzy thing has everything bought up, LOL! So I think the changes of getting a really excellent one, unseen, via mail order have gone way down.   Otherwise I'd have one of these and an Mosin revolver already, just for the historical curiousity if nothing else.

I didn't expect it to be a complete clone of the 1903, but seems pretty close. Definitely the drop in hammer section is different.

Mil-spec finishes don't bother me, sometimes I actually like them better. Had a Series 70 Colt that was awesomely finished... mirror polish sides... matt top... walnut grips with gold Colt medallions... at the same time... had the basic GI model from Springfield Armory (Genesco, Il.. not the real armory)... in park. finish... I usually grabbed that one first.

Call me strange, but I like that greenish park. finish too.

Recently got a Marlin 336w, which has the bead blasted looking finish.. much as I love a high polish gun... have to say I really like the matt finish. I dunno, just seems appropriate on a gun for some reason. But ultimately stainless is my favorite. (I hate rust, LOL!)

Anyway, getting back on track...

How does one identify the different variants? Is there as site like that Mosin site that covers all the nitty details?

Since I'm afraid to buy one unseen at this point, figure I'll have to evaluate when I find them.

Have to admit, the hope was to find one of the ones with the Ruskie star on the grips, but no idea if that's the right one to be looking for? Ultimately condition is #1, since I actually want to shoot it and would like it to be trustworthy enough to "bet my life on" if needed. (Granted 1000 better choices exist these days... just don't see the point in owning a gun I can't trust when the chips are down.)

[flmason]

Hmm... just noticed you said 6 gr. of Unique... geez I used to load 6.5 behind Hornady .45 FMJ's for my 1911's and they were slightly to the hot side... definitely a movin' out round.

[Mikey]

Flmason:  I realize this is a older post and topic but yes, I said 6 gns of Unique for the Tokarev round under a 85-86 gn rn or rnsp or even cast slug.  This load and either 12.9 or 13 of H110 are the loads Mike Venturino used to obtain factory duplication loads for the Tokarev cartridge.  They both chronographed at the factory velocity of 1390-1400'/sec with the 85 gn slug from the Tokarev barrel and hit to the same point of aim as the factory Tokarev loads.
 
As for the 45 acp - I regularly use 6.5 - 6.7 of Unique for my loadings, either jacketed rn, jacketed fp or cast swc.  Loads in this range shoot to the militray sights at 25 and 50 yds - about 2" high at 25 and dead on the nutz at 50.  According to my Lyman 43rd manual, 6.5 gns of Unique is the factory duplication load for the 45 with a 230 gn ball, with a range to 7.2 gns.
 
If you have not yet found a Tok, try the Romanian Toks, probably some of the best made.  And if you opt for the (forget who makes it now) M57 version of the Tokarev, make certain you get a handful of extra magazines - the ones for the standard Tok varieties of the TT-33 holding 8 shots do not fit the newer M57 with magazines that hold 9 shots. 

[williamlayton]

Listening to Mikey go on about Toks is akin to reading a love novel---not a chick flick mind you, a mans man conversation.
Blessings

[Mikey]

Aw Willie, ya doan wanna hear me go on about Lugers now doya, or mebbe Walthers???

[williamlayton]

I read most anything you write---now that don't mean we are going to take warms showers together. 
Blessings

[Mikey]

"now that don't mean we are going to take warms showers together".  Thank goodness ........................

[williamlayton]

It would be good for SA to weigh in on this. I miss that lady---pray she is Ok--really pray she is OK.
Blessings

[jlwilliams]

The TT-33 Tokarev pistols are a little smaller than the M-57 Tokarevs.  If you want the compactness of the 1903, the TT is closer to that.  If you held a TT in one hand and a Colt 1903 pocket in the other, you wouldn't see them as being so close.  Don't get me wrong, the TT is a great little gun, but it doesn't compare well to a Colt than was made during the golden age of American manufacturing.
 
 The safety on the current production M57 is the best safety you will find on any of them.  Most Toks have a safety that is butchered onto them after they were made in order to get them im portable to the US.  That means they don't all work the same and they are not all equally well thought out solutions to the problem.  What makes the new ones the best is that they are built into the gun as a purpose built design.  The gun was born with that safety as opposed to having it grafted on.
 
  If you want the slightly smaller gun, look at as many of the older style TT-33 as you can and find one with a safety you can live with.
 
  If you really love the 1903, this won't scratch the itch for long.  I also really, really want a 1903.  I will get one as soon as I find one in good enough shape that I can afford with money I have to spend.  I for one have pretty much decided to go with 32 or 380, whichever one the gun I find is.  I have decided that for a couple of reasons.  One, the 380 isn't that much better than the 32.  Both are compromise pocket gun calibers.  good 32 loads are about shoulder to shoulder with 380 loads, and neither is setting the world on fire.  I want the 1903 because I want the 1903.  If I really want to push the boundaries of pocket ballistics, I'll put some hot +p+ loads in my Glock 19 which I'm not afraid to put some stress on.  The Beautiful old Colt Pocket will just be shot some and carried a little from time to time.   Why get bogged down in ballistics on a 100 year old gun?  Just get one in whatever caliber you find it in and enjoy it for what it is.
 
  Maybe getting the Tokarev in the super hot caliber it shoots will let you get a 32 Colt without worrying about ballistics.  Shoot the 32 Colt when you want to shoot the old Colt, and break out the TT with the cheap mil-surp hot shooting loads for when you want to make a big noise.  And it does make a big noise.  Shooting the Tokarev at a range will draw some looks.  "What was THAT?" when your auto pistol hollers out like a magnum.

[jlwilliams]

I forgot to say this.  There are TT33 and M57 old guns and there are new production M57 guns that are different.  The old M57 is a little bigger then the TT but they were built with no safety, so you will see all sorts of cobbled together safeties.  The new, current production M57 Tokarevs have the built in safety on the slide (and are the same larger size as the old M57).  It doesn't work quite as crisply and nicely as a brand new SIG safety, but it's way better than most any of the retro fitted safeties I have encountered on old mil-surp guns.  The M57 can't use the older TT magazines.  I have seen (online) that you can modify CZ57 magazines to fit the M57.  I have an old Polish TT33 with an OK safety (not great, but ok) and a new Zastava M57.  I really prefer the new gun.  It is built as well as the old gun, but it's brand new.  I keep the Polish because I have a bunch of the corrosive surplus ammo that I don't shoot through the new gun. 
 
  Another note about the older military surplus guns.  The Tokarev is really a brilliantly simple design, but the execution of that design varies greatly.  Some were built in factories filled with old European craftsmen who knew what they were doing.  Other were made in sweat shops full of near starving almost literate stooges while the factory walls were trembling from the bomb blasts.  That's the deal with Communist built stuff.  They did a great job of choosing simple, robust designs; but they have a terrible track record for inconsistent execution of those designs.  Some really good Tokarev pistols, some not so much so.  The ONLY way to know is to handle the gun you are buying and look it over.  Kind of like SKS rifles.  There is a world of difference between a Russian or East German one and a Chinese VN wartime production example.  If you buy online, ask for a no shoot inspection period.

[Mikey]

JL:  I have to admit that the old Colt 1903 is a pretty piece, and well made in the 'golden days'.  I don't know how much influence that design had on the development of the Tok but the similarity is not lost.  I can also appreciate the new M57 Zastava made pistols - the little bit of extra length gives a better grip and I have no doubt the Zastava pistols are of much better quality than any wartime production and most probably any of the Chinese made pistols. 
 
The Chinese are still commies and are still prone to all the security nonsense about having others known where they make their guns, so rather than making everything in one factory, only certain parts are made in the factories and the other parts are made by smaller  crafters, which is why some of the batf aftermarket required safeties on the Toks don't work fer squat, why some of the metalurgy seems softer than it should and why some are just not accurate at all.   The batf safety on my Tok broke, so I replaced it - that one broke as did the 3rd safety I installed.  Finally I said 'enough', and just covered the safety hole with some duct tape and have shot and carried this piece since 94 in that manner. 
 
Just for poops and giggles I ran the issue past his highness Massad Ayoob as to what he thought of carrying the piece the way it was originally designed, without the batf safety.  His response showed that he was/is little more than a paid mouthpiece for whatever gun maker or ammo maker is willing to pay him and that he is poorly schooled in anything other than the 1911 or the glock or something more current.  He was totally against carrying the piece without the safety installed, even though my letter clearly explained its tendency to fail, demonstrated that he knew nothing of the design but was willing to denigrate it as obsolete because it was a 1933 designed pistol (although he favored 1911s - go figure) and knew nothing of the caliber which has the same power level rating as his fabled 125 gn 357 load.   
 
My attorney is a gun nut and well schooled in legal gun issues.  He told me the presence or lack of a safety made no difference when carrying the Tok because if you carried it the way it was originally designed to be carried, on half (actually 1/3rd) cock, it was safer than it was when carried with a faulty safety or with the hammer at full cock and the safety applied.  I thought to myself - ayoob should have known this but not.........

[williamlayton]

My recollection is that all are inherently dangerous or not worth having.
Blessings

[GrassLakeRon]

My recollection is that all are inherently dangerous or not worth having.
Blessings

I have several....never had an issue.  I even wrote an article in the backwoodsman about them.  John browning design with a twist.

Ron

[Mikey]

Bill:  they are, actually, no more dangerous than a loaded revolver.  As designed, these pistols were meant to be carried loaded and at 1/3 cock.  The notch at the base of the hammer into which the sear goes when on half cock is not like the half cock notch on the 1911 which is likened to a 'open V' and prone to slippage, it is a squared 'C' shaped notch that fully engages the sear which prevents it from being accidentally detonating a round even if dropped.  We used to drop these things all the time in Vietnam and I never had one discharge accidentally.  I suppose that if you tried you could probably make one fail and accidentally discharge but please do not mistake a warn out wartime made Tok with some of the newer ones on the market today.  I remember when people would tell you not to drop the hammer on a Walther P38 because even though the safety was a hammer block it might not work as designed - might not was the operative phrase here and I have never had that happen either.
 
Sort of like hoping for a hug from either Lynnie or SharonAnne - it might happen if I'm ever that lucky - which is the operative phrase here - but it's most likely never going to happen either................

[williamlayton]

YUP---and sad commentary on the last part. I pray for them.
Blessings

[Basicguy]

 I have a Romanian, Polish and Czech.

The Czech has a larger grip and different mags. It has a differently styled safety. Although they all look like ad ons.

Bought the ammo back when and have several cases of it, zips out at 1500 fps.  Pretty accurate. The sights are strictly military narrow and black.

I like the Romanian version the best.

[mcwoodduck]

My recollection is that all are inherently dangerous or not worth having.
Blessings

 

I have several....never had an issue.  I even wrote an article in the backwoodsman about them.  John browning design with a twist.

Ron

Since the 30 Tok and the 30 mauser are very close as a ctg.  One using .311 Bullets 7.62X25  and the other using 308 7.63X25 in the same case design but slight divverences.  The presures of the 30 Tok in a Broom handle will cause presure problems and we had a club member have the bolt come strait back out of a 1896 and break his jaw, stove in a few teeth as well as break the gun.  Toks are not dangerous to have. having a broom handle and a tok on the bench at the same time could be.  I have also heard that it is a problem to shoot 30 mauser in the Toks as well as the case is just a slight bit longer and will cause pressure problems in the Russian guns since the neck is a little longer on the mauser case.   While it looks like the case difference between 308 Win and 7.62 Nato it is not and you can and probably will get hurt in crossing ammo between the two. 

[Mikey]

duck:  you are absolutely correct about not shooting 7.62 Tokarev ammo through a 1896 30 Mauser, especially if you have managed to get your hands on some of the surplus submachinegun ammo for the Ppsh sub guns.  Any 7.62x25mm Tokarev ammo is wrong for the 1896 Mauser.
 
Ron Reed, one of our sponsors and one who commercially manufactures Tokarev ammo will tell you the same thing.  Although very close in dimention it is the pressure of the Tokarev cartridge that makes shooting those through the 1896 Mauser a very dangerous proposition.  Correct 30 Mauser ammo is still made, by Fiochhi and it is quality ammo.  There is a awful lot of 7.62x25mm Tok ammo out there that should not be confused with the 30 Mauser. 

[S.B.]

I've often considered a Colt 1903 with OSS marking(I wish!) But, they're so expensive to put them out of my reach.
Steve

[mcwoodduck]

Hi All,
    Have wanted a Colt 1903 pistol since I was a kid... but most are on .32, the .380's bring a premium and these days either really carries a collectors premium...


Any other interesting info?

The Colt pocket pistol in .380 is called the Colt 1908.