"AL" series Huntsman Question

[OldSchoolRanger]

quick,

Before there is a misunderstanding, I want to point out that I'm not looking for an argument regarding your understanding that all Huntsman rifles are firearms.  I just want to bring out a point.

I did a little research regarding the "older" (1976 production) Huntsman BP rifles.  It is still my contention that the older Huntsman rifles are exempt from the form 4473 requirement.  I was wondering if you could post the letter of inquiry to the ATF regarding their answer, or should I wait until Matt gets the last 8 months of posts back up. 

If I remember correctly, your letter stated the "Huntsman" is a firearm, and requires filling out the form 4473.  The question I have is which "Huntsman"?  Was a manufactuer mentioned? Ex: Wesson & Harrington (1871), Harrington & Richardson Company (1875), The Harrington & Richardson Arms Company (1888), In 1986 the original H&R (maker of the older "Huntsman")went out of business.

 H&R 1871, Inc. (was formed in 1991), this is the company that made the newer "Huntsman" rifles which require a form 4473.  The assets of this company was sold to H&R 1871, LLC (November 2000), which was owned by Marlin, and later  taken over by Remington (December 2007).  If the letter states: "Huntsman rifles manufactured by H&R 1871" are firearms, that means that the "older" Huntsman made by the old H&R company (1976 production models) are not considered firearms.

My point being that just because something shares a name with another product, the product is not necessarily the same exact product, and thus not bound by the same restrictions.

I hope this clears up the issue, or at least cast doubt on the contention that all Huntsman are firearms.  If any GBO members are members of the bar, please feel free to either agree or disagree with my point of law, and possibly your reasoning. 

I am not looking to encourage people to disobey the law, but my reason for bringing up this point is that I don't feel that we should surrender any of our 2nd Amdt rights because of a misunderstanding by an uninformed government official.  Thank you.

[quickdtoo]

The H&R Inc Model 156 Huntsman was made 1972 to 1979, the ATF letter specifically addresses it as being a firearm, and their blanket policy also states H&R/NEF Huntsmans are firearms as well.  AL was made in 1973.

Tim

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/collectors.html#antique-definition

Q: What qualifies as an antique firearm?

As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means —


…
A.any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
B.any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica —
i.is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
ii.uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

C.any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

ATF has previously determined that certain muzzle loading models are firearms and subject to the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). All of these guns incorporate the frame or receiver of a firearm that is capable of accepting other barrels designed to fire conventional rimfire or centerfire fixed ammunition. Therefore, these muzzle loading models do not meet the definition of “antique firearm” as that term is defined in the above-cited § 921(a)(16) and are “firearms” as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)

Furthermore, as firearms, the models described above, as well as other similar models, regardless of installed barrel type, are subject to all provisions of the GCA. Persons who purchase these firearms from licensed dealers are required to fill out ATF Form 4473 and are subject to a National Instant Background Check System (NICS) check. Convicted felons and certain other persons are prohibited from receiving and possessing these firearms.

The following is a list of weapons that load from the muzzle and remain classified as firearms, not antiques, under the purview of the GCA since they incorporate the frame or receiver of a firearm:
1.Savage Model 10ML (early, 1st version).
2.Mossberg 500 shotgun with muzzle loading barrel.
3.Remington 870 shotgun with muzzle loading barrel.
4.Mauser 98 rifle with muzzle loading barrel.
5.SKS rifle with muzzle loading barrel
6.RPB sM10 pistol with muzzle loading barrel.
7.H&R/New England Firearm Huntsman.
8.Thompson Center Encore/Contender.
9.Rossi .50 muzzle loading rifle.

This list is not complete and it frequently changes; therefore, there may be other muzzle loaders also classified as firearms. As noted, any muzzleloader weapon that is built on a firearm frame or receiver falls within the definition of a firearm provided in § 921(a)(3).

[quickdtoo]

Here's the original inquiry to the ATF.

Tim

[Oldguy78]

As of a few days ago, an AJ (1972) .58 cal Huntsman receiver and buttstock sold, to me, with no FFL on Gun Broker. There was another also listed as no FFL that I missed. There was also a complete .58 cal with no FFL. All were sold from Ohio.
My understanding 10-15 years ago was that a 12 gauge Huntsman had been ruled a firearm and required an FFL but the .58 and .45 did not.
I’m not sure if the 12 gauge is still considered a firearm but I noted that there were none listed on Gun Broker while there were three 58’s.

[quickdtoo]

All Huntmans are considered firearms by the ATF, see page 3.

Tim

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/0813-firearms-top-12-qaspdf/download