Author Topic: Olin / Winchester 260 Platinum Tips  (Read 2355 times)

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Offline RandyWakeman

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Olin / Winchester 260 Platinum Tips
« on: February 24, 2004, 08:14:04 AM »
Olin-Winchester 260 grain 45 / 50 Platinum Tip Bullets
Over the years, scant few jacketed bullets have been well developed for muzzleloading use. Originally, handgun bullets were extensively used as they were pre-existing and inexpensive, and they still are today. By being developed for far slower velocities than today’s muzzleloaders can produce, they have resulted in poor performance when pushed beyond the velocities they were designed for. Premature core separation and inadequate terminal performance was the result in some cases, but certainly not all. With the .44 Magnum pistol bullet as perhaps the most popular, poor accuracy with the .429 inch diameter bullets was reported with the sabots of a few years ago, to the point where even the Hodgdon Pyrodex manual makes this not entirely accurate statement. Sabot formulations have improved at least four times over the last eight years, and their designs along with them—to the point where the older accuracy axiom may still have some merit appertaining to some jacketed bullets, but in no way close to the clear trend of even a few years ago.

Somewhat late to the muzzleloading plate comes Olin-Winchester, but not without a level of muzzleloading testing and attention that few of today’s front-loader projectiles receive. The muzzleloading projectile market is still small compared to center-fire rifle and pistol markets, making development cost a correspondingly high percentage of potential sales. To partially compensate for this, Olin has sought multi-purpose bullets, and that is the case with the Platinum Tip line—at present, consisting of only the 260 grain .45 caliber bullet in a black MMP .50 caliber sabot, though a .40 / 45 offering has been announced. The bullet is the same bullet that has already proven itself to be an outstanding hunting projectile in Winchester’s high performance 20 gauge saboted slug round, and also in their .454 Casull pistol cartridges.

The 260 grain Platinum Tip features a hardened, swaged lead core with the addition of about 2-1/2 percent antimony—the hardest lead Winchester found that their swaging presses would smoothly handle. The silver colored, “Platinum” jacket is one of the thickest I’ve seen on a muzzleloading bullet, featuring a very deep hollow point, and has an exposed lead base. Prior to its release, it was designed and tested to be the “ideal” muzzleloading deer-hunting bullet. Winchester consulted with MMP, and found that the HPH12 sabot—which appears overly long for the bullet, gave them the best accuracy from their ensemble of test guns.

Ballistic coefficients have been used and abused, with most published numbers from various companies devised by methods unknown. Whatever methods are used, they are almost universally inflated in my experience. Well, Winchester didn’t guess at all. Having their own Doppler radar range on site in East Alton, Illinois, they were able to pinpoint the average 200 yard G1 BC at .200, based on a 90 grain Pyrodex charge. It is one of the very few muzzleloading BC’s with much real-world meaning. Pushed at 2000 fps, this bullet will retain over 1000 foot pounds of kinetic energy past 200 yards. The maximum point blank range with a 6” kill zone is about 185 yards with this load.

On to the bullet impact testing, where Winchester fired rounds into deer hide covering ballistic gelatin at 100 yards, and recreated the same testing with the “four Denim” method, and added some of their FBI barrier testing procedures to further examine this bullet’s capabilities at different velocities. As a result of this battery of testing, Winchester found that positive expansion, long a problem with some bullet designs, is a guarantee between 1200 and 1700 fps, with no chance of core separation. The possibility of core separation hitting bone above 1700 fps is there, but still unlikely until 1800 fps or so terminal velocity, according to Winchester’s data. Winchester found that even in the most extreme cases, the heavy jacket penetrated almost as deeply as the core itself. Based on the results reported from a wide variety of sources from the 2003 season, this bullet is an outstanding performer on deer whether fired from a muzzleloader, shotgun, or handgun. In weighing the bullets, they varied from 258.1 to 259.5 grains from among one 30-pack.

In testing with four different muzzleloaders, 3 shot 100 yard accuracy varied from the 1” to 1-3/4” contingent on gun as supplied, when pushed by 100 grains of Triple Seven FFg. Use of the latest formulation MMP HPH 12 sabots showed no significant change with the same load, but substitution of the shorter, “MMP” black sabots improved the groups by approximately on half inch in three out of the four guns, about on quarter inch in the fourth (which was already shooting right at an inch). That seems to be a reasonable, if statistically small; trend that shows Winchester might be able to improve their product a bit with a little more attention to current sabot styles and formulations.
Though personally I’m a pure lead bullet fan, Del Ramsey pointed up the one clear advantage a jacketed bullet has—that is, it always looks like a bullet. A few inadequately packaged pure lead bullets seldom arrive looking like they should, no great surprise after handling by plane, trick, rail, or being knocked off of shelves. The Winchester Platinum Tip is one very tough bullet, its deer bagging past performance is superb, and it is available at a price point of well less than half of some other “premium” bullets. Winchester has done well, and I do hope they expand this fledgling line to include what would logically be a .40 caliber 210 grain area bullet, and a .45 caliber 310 grain area bullet.

Offline sabotloader

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Olin / Winchester 260 Platinum Tips
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2004, 09:23:17 AM »
In addition to everything you have said, I would like them and other manufactures to offer the bultes without sabots for people that can not force an MMP's down the barrel.  I can get it down but I would hate to be trying to get it in the field, in a hurry, hunting.  To get the SST's down my A&H's I have to switch to TC Mag sabots.  So the MMP's that come with the bullets really go to waste.  I know when I ordered my SST's directly from Hornady the only way I could get them is with Sabots.

Do you forsee the Winchester being available in 300 gr.  I am always looking for an Elk load.  I have always said deer are a dime a dozen out here so they just come with the territory on the other hand Elk are difficult to come by and you want a sure thing.

I have also ordered some Harvestor's to see if they will work.  When I talked to A&H they are aware of their tight barrels.
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline grouse

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Olin / Winchester 260 Platinum Tips
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2004, 01:34:40 PM »
I think i will order some saturday. I hope there easy to load.
DeadCenters got me spoiled. :)

Offline RandyWakeman

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Olin / Winchester 260 Platinum Tips
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2004, 01:51:52 PM »
Quote from: sabotloader
Do you forsee the Winchester being available in 300 gr.  I am always looking for an Elk load.  I have always said deer are a dime a dozen out here so they just come with the territory on the other hand Elk are difficult to come by and you want a sure thing.



I'm told they are thinking about it-- in the meantime, their 260 Partition Gold is offered as the tougher alternative for larger game, and has the same BC. It is a partition bullet ("Combined Technologies" w/ Nosler), and that would be the choice for whacking a larger, bigger boned animal-- with no finite velocity limitation.

Offline sabotloader

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Olin / Winchester 260 Platinum Tips
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2004, 02:59:46 PM »
Thanks Randy, I have been using Nosler 44 cal 250gr partitions, 45 cal 260gr and 300gr partictions.  In the last two years I have taken taken deer with the 250 and the 300 but have not been fortunate enough to get close enough to an elk for the big try.  A couple of my friends have tagged elk using 295 and 348 Powerbelts, those results haven't been exciting we got them but it took a lot of looking.  I am was really confident in the Noslers, but I do lean to the 300gr more than the 260 for that first attempt.  I am putting a chain and padlock on my Weatherby 300WinMag so I am forced to use the A&H all season - no second guessing.

As I read your information you feel confident the Winchester is better suited for the velocities achieved by muzzleloader on a big boned animal than the the Nosler pistol bullets(not using a Savage).

I feel real confident with either the Remington or A&H and my shooting ability out to 150 yards with or without the scope (in Idaho we can not use any type of optics during muzzleloading season but we can during regular rifle season).  I am telling you I am making the commitment to use a muzzleloader all year even when I have take the scope off.  I harvested a 6 point Bull two years ago with the Win Mag that I continually wish I had taken the muzzleloader in the woods that day. 85-90 yard shot downhill full standing broadside - darn :evil:

Can these bullets be purchased in a box as pistol bullets or do you have to by a pack with sabots?
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline RandyWakeman

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Olin / Winchester 260 Platinum Tips
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2004, 04:22:18 PM »
Quote from: sabotloader
As I read your information you feel confident the Winchester is better suited for the velocities achieved by muzzleloader on a big boned animal than the Nosler pistol bullets(not using a Savage).

Can these bullets be purchased in a box as pistol bullets or do you have to by a pack with sabots?


As far I know, they come only with sabots. I've got some 260 PG's here, in just recently, but haven't shot any yet-- identical to the Nosler Partition HG's, little surprise there. What impressed me most was the level of testing by Olin-- and the positive expansion as low as 1200 fps.

It all ends up falling into a Hobson's choice of sorts; the best 50 yard load combination isn't the best 200 yard combination-- and the bullet that does superbly on muscle tissue may not be what you are looking for as a bone breaker. I've seen too many Barnes bullets from various muzzleloading tests with 0% expansion. Some like hard cast bullets as well, and a .45 caliber hole in the right place is still a big hole. So, no real answer-- they all "have worked." If I had to pick an elk bullet, I'd look at a 340 Dead Center or a 375 SSB in a sabot-- or even a 405 gr. PB. The 340 Dead Center will net you a flatter trajectory. A Dead Center 340 at 100 yards has over 1900 fpe terminal energy assuming a muzzle velocity of 1750 fps or so, and it is hard to think of that as less than "sufficient".

Offline MFinMA

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Olin / Winchester 260 Platinum Tips
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2004, 05:13:19 AM »
Randy,
Many interesting points. I realize there are many who opt for a bullet/load combo that expends all its energy in the animal without exiting the opposite side. While others want a bullet/load combo which will expand and exit. There are merits to both. But from most of the discussion above it appears that the pass thru camp provides more of a margin of error given all of the variables involved.

Offline sabotloader

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Olin / Winchester 260 Platinum Tips
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2004, 07:40:40 AM »
I guess I would belong in the pass through crowd in most cases.  The one case that I might not care is if the bullet hits a large bone and doesn't make it all the way through the animal but does make it through the bone into the animal and still has the energy to cause hydraulic eruption of the organs.  The deer I shot this year, 80 yards, it was a pass through (no bone contact), but on the way through the expansion of the bullet caused enough hydraulic pressure to liquify the heart/lungs.  I also am confident that I had enough energy to cause great damage at 150 yards also.

It comes down to I want enough power to pass through yet have the bullet expand to the point of creating pressure inside the animal, along with the natural piercing the bullet does.  Does that make sense?
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline RandyWakeman

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Olin / Winchester 260 Platinum Tips
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2004, 07:49:28 AM »
Quote from: MFinMA
Randy,
But from most of the discussion above it appears that the pass thru camp provides more of a margin of error given all of the variables involved.


There's really no answer that is pleasing to all. Toby Bridges is in the "energy transfer" camp, and several others. The possibility of a pass through with lead is reduced, with no sharp edges hitting the hide on the far side: ball peen hammer vs. knife blade on leather. Expansion gives a large permanent wound cavity, and obviously a larger wound can destroy more tissue.

Millions of deer have been cleanly taken prior to the use of SST's, Dead Centers, Barnes Bullets, Platinum Tips, etc. The advantages are perhaps more incremental than any of the above would care to admit to. You still need accuracy, and proper shot placement-- not much good is going to happen without that. As for energy levels, that seems to be a matter of opinion as well-- but, you still need some kinetic energy. An individual animal's will to live / strength is hard to quantify, and we can't call the bullets back for redundant observations.

My "theory" is that a lot of "data" is flawed-- white smoke is covering what really happens, and the distances that many animals are truly taken at are often just guesses. If you don't hunt with a rangefinder, it can be little else. I've always wonder why deer are either shot at 100.00 yards, or 200.00 yards. Somehow, they just are seldom found at 87 yards, 143 yards, or 179 yards, etc.  :roll: