Author Topic: How many 13 inch dictator type mortars made? (Read 6191 times)

entsminger · « **on:** February 04, 2014, 06:42:57 AM »

Does anyone know how many big 13 inch dictator style mortars were origionally made? I keep seeing the big mortars on land and all over the place during the Civil War and on barges and boats and I'm wondering if the same 20 or 30 of them were repositioned during the war from earth works to barges etc or did they have enough of them to go around for all these different positions? I though I had a book that stated how many were origionally made but I can't find it. Also I'd like to know how many of what was made are accounted for today.

WindElevation · « **Reply #1 on:** February 04, 2014, 08:11:17 AM »

I have read that 90 were produced, all at Fort Pitt, Pa.......... Gary

cannonmn · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2014, 08:59:17 AM »

I don't have my article nearby but when I wrote "What Happened to the Dictator?" and published it in The Artilleryman ca. 1987, I included a table showing data on well over 100 US 13-inch mortars, M1861. There were at least a couple of founders making them, certainly Ft. Pitt, but as I recall also SMM & Co. Will have to dig out the data. There were enough of them around that many of the tubes remained un-issued at arsenals until after the CW. I'm guessing that mortar bed construction lagged behind tube casting, a possible reason many remained un-issued, but I don't have any data to back that up. All the info on the number made came from the US National Archives, Washington DC, Record Group 156 (Army) and Record Group 74 (Navy.) Abe Lincoln gave the Navy priority for issue of the mortars early in the War so many intended for issue to the Army went instead to the Navy. The records I found showed the name of the ship or river supply base to which each Navy mortar was issued. I seem to recall that many intended for mortar barges were sent to Cairo, IL. The mortar schooners got one mortar each, and mortar barges carried what, four each?

Cannon Cocker · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2014, 09:28:50 AM »

You can contact Jim Bender, who is the keeper of the registry. I'm guessing he has the most accurate count, including the locations.

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2014, 10:57:51 AM »

It appears that WindElevation, another Coloradan, has stated the accurate figure on the quantity of Army mortars approved for purchase, (90) and that number added to the quantity purchased by the Navy, (72) comes to 162 total for the 13-inch Seacoast Mortar, Pattern 1861. Also, 27 are known to have survived until 1997 when our source, The Big Guns by Olmstead, Stark and Tucker was published. Like Cannon Cocker says, check with Jim Bender, keeper of the Civil War Surviving Artillery List to get the latest finds.

Tracy and Mike

cannonmn · « **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2014, 03:29:31 PM »

Here's a link to my article on The Dictator:

http://springfieldarsenal.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/dictator0001.pdf

MKlein · « **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2014, 12:07:13 AM »

Thanks for sharing John! Nice article! In 1988 I was 19 working as a full time meat cutter at the Winn Dixie and wasn't thinking about historical cannons and mortars at the time. The article mentions curved track, I wonder did they have a junction that got the Dictator to where the Replica sits today or was it actually located during the war where the current RR tracks are?

Here is that West Point Mortar

There are some other good pics here
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:NYPL_Stereoscopic_views_of_the_United_States_Military_Academy,_West_Point,_New_York_and_vicinity

entsminger · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2014, 07:55:53 AM »

Hey thanks for all the help guys! How do I contact Jim Bender, the keeper of the registry? Seems like way more were made than are currently accounted for so maybe one's out there sunk in the swamp somewhere waiting to be found?

Scott

Zulu · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2014, 08:17:53 AM »

Quote from: entsminger on February 05, 2014, 07:55:53 AM

Hey thanks for all the help guys! How do I contact Jim Bender, the keeper of the registry? Seems like way more were made than are currently accounted for so maybe one's out there sunk in the swamp somewhere waiting to be found?

Scott

They don't even have to be in a swamp.
This one at The Bronx Community College in NYC was just added to the registry last year.
The story on it can be seen here.
Zulu
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/blackpowder-mortar-and-cannon-sponsored-by-seacoast-artillery/13'-mortar-needs-restoration/

entsminger · « **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2014, 08:40:33 AM »

It's amazing how this mortar out in plain sight eluded all the mortar nuts like myself until just recently. Does anyone know if any of these origional mortars are in private hands? I heard only one was and unfortunately it's not my hands, ha ha.

Scott

Iron Balls · « **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2014, 11:34:13 AM »

I would guess they were in the middle of a park like setting, but were cut off from casual traffic by the building in the back ground.

cannonmn · « **Reply #11 on:** February 05, 2014, 08:33:40 PM »

Quote

It's amazing how this mortar out in plain sight eluded all the mortar nuts like myself until just recently. Does anyone know if any of these origional mortars are in private hands? I heard only one was and unfortunately it's not my hands, ha ha.

Scott

Scott, that pic of the gray one when it was in NY is a few months old, at least. It is in my warehouse now, call and you can come over and look.* If you wear white gloves I'll let you touch it too. It broke the floor in one place and I have to get it fixed before the landlord finds out.

cannonmn · « **Reply #12 on:** February 06, 2014, 01:34:37 AM »

*jes' kiddin!!! Scott's a neighbor of mine and has a good sense of humor, when I saw his post I just had to yank his chain a little! I'm sure just due to inertia if nothing else, the gray beast is still in NY.

Zulu · « **Reply #13 on:** February 06, 2014, 01:41:54 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on February 06, 2014, 01:34:37 AM

*jes' kiddin!!! Scott's a neighbor of mine and has a good sense of humor, when I saw his post I just had to yank his chain a little! I'm sure just due to inertia if nothing else, the gray beast is still in NY.

It is still at the college. There is a fund raiser going on to restore it and the other more modern guns there.
Zulu

cannonmn · « **Reply #14 on:** February 06, 2014, 02:12:51 AM »

When the first thread on this mortar was posted I called the college and offered to look up the history of it, if it could be found, in the National Archives. The folks were courteous and I was referred to a couple of different people there, but none would agree to go out and write down the markings on the muzzle. I was never really sure they understood what I was offering to do, but if they did they weren't interested enough to get me the info.

Zulu · « **Reply #15 on:** February 06, 2014, 04:18:40 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on February 06, 2014, 02:12:51 AM

When the first thread on this mortar was posted I called the college and offered to look up the history of it, if it could be found, in the National Archives. The folks were courteous and I was referred to a couple of different people there, but none would agree to go out and write down the markings on the muzzle. I was never really sure they understood what I was offering to do, but if they did they weren't interested enough to get me the info.

John,
Check out reply #8 and click on the thread about this mortar.
The guy who found it contacted me to see if I could help him with any info. I had him get the markings from it and contact Jim Bender who said it was not in the registry.
The markings are in the thread somewhere.
The guy who found it, Kevin, has been trying to raise money for it's restoration for some time now.
If I recall correctly, he told me there was no crane access where the gun was sitting and it would have to be restored in place.
Zulu

GGaskill · « **Reply #16 on:** February 06, 2014, 08:55:54 PM »

If I recall correctly, he told me there was no crane access where the gun was sitting and it would have to be restored in place.

I would think it could be jacked up onto a sledge and dragged into an open area.

MKlein · « **Reply #17 on:** February 07, 2014, 12:04:10 AM »

Looks like 1190 or 0611 if you are hanging upside down from a tree

Cannonmn if you go see if you can find the Hotchkiss 1.65" (42mm) mountain gun blueprints
I will be glad to pay the record pull fee's and a free steak dinner at the VFW

entsminger · « **Reply #18 on:** February 07, 2014, 03:54:44 AM »

It is in my warehouse now, call and you can come over and look.*

If anyone could rangle it out of their hands it would be the Cannon man,ha ha ! Some day when they get tired of mowing around it or repainting it and you do manage to talk them out of it give me a call. If there is one thing in all the world to have for me it would be a 13 inch mortar. A 10 incher would be second and then a 1936 3 window ford Coupe, ha ha.
When googling 13 inch mortars I found a article about a fellow who back in the 60's or 70's did find a 13 incher in the swamp so there's always hope! Some of those mortar barges or schooners must have sunk? I do remember reading a passage in a book that told of a barge of 15 inch Rodman cannon balls etc which sunk on the way to Ft. Foot on the Potomac. I doubt anyone got them up.

Scott

Zulu · « **Reply #19 on:** February 07, 2014, 05:17:37 AM »

Quote from: entsminger on February 07, 2014, 03:54:44 AM

It is in my warehouse now, call and you can come over and look.*

If anyone could rangle it out of their hands it would be the Cannon man,ha ha ! Some day when they get tired of mowing around it or repainting it and you do manage to talk them out of it give me a call. If there is one thing in all the world to have for me it would be a 13 inch mortar. A 10 incher would be second and then a 1936 3 window ford Coupe, ha ha.
When googling 13 inch mortars I found a article about a fellow who back in the 60's or 70's did find a 13 incher in the swamp so there's always hope! Some of those mortar barges or schooners must have sunk? I do remember reading a passage in a book that told of a barge of 15 inch Rodman cannon balls etc which sunk on the way to Ft. Foot on the Potomac. I doubt anyone got them up.

Scott

Scott,
So far, it looks like they haven't got tired of painting it yet. $:-\$
Zulu

entsminger · « **Reply #20 on:** February 07, 2014, 06:10:54 AM »

Just wait for some anti-gun adminstrator at that school to see that they are glorifying a "weapon of destruction" on their lawn and they'll want it removed pronto. I think I should start a web page for all those who want to get rid of those "weapons" where they can contact me and ship those 13, 10 and 8 inch mortars to my front lawn to keep the world safe.What a service to the community, ha ha..

Scott

MKlein · « **Reply #21 on:** February 07, 2014, 12:42:12 PM »

Scott, I found a fenced in, happy place for you to hang out.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Shappell+Park,+Phillipsburg,+NJ&hl=en&ll=40.686936,-75.193665&spn=0.000423,0.000651&sll=32.576226,-86.680736&sspn=5.44254,10.667725&oq=Shappell+Park,+Phillipsburg,+NJ&t=h&hq=Shappell+Park,+Phillipsburg,+NJ&z=21&layer=c&cbll=40.686936,-75.193665&panoid=m_ZbFMxN2SJiIH9wQRhxrw&cbp=12,180.88,,0,0

entsminger · « **Reply #22 on:** February 10, 2014, 09:39:29 AM »

Cool view of those mortars! It's amazing how the big mortars are scattered all over the US in places you might never suspect one would be. There's a big one up on Colorado and I asked my wife, a historian, what the heck would one be doing up there and she said well, there were indian wars up there. Can't you just see indians charging in on a 13 incher as it blasts away, ha ha.

Scott

MKlein · « **Reply #23 on:** February 18, 2014, 09:37:02 AM »

A Dictator story
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn82016187/1903-04-23/ed-1/seq-3/#date1=1836&index=0&rows=20&words=Dictator+mortar&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1922&proxtext=dictator+mortar&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

shred · « **Reply #24 on:** February 18, 2014, 12:37:01 PM »

Quote from: MKlein on February 18, 2014, 09:37:02 AM

A Dictator story
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn82016187/1903-04-23/ed-1/seq-3/#date1=1836&index=0&rows=20&words=Dictator+mortar&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1922&proxtext=dictator+mortar&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

Interesting that says 17,185 lbs since IIRC cannonmn's article shows it to be recorded as 1 lb heavier.

MKlein · « **Reply #25 on:** February 18, 2014, 05:42:16 PM »

Great attention to detail Shred

I figured Cannonmn would be the first to notice that significant reference to the weight of the Dictator. If that diary is still around it would be nice to see.

One other fact is that the Dictator had the high arched trailing edge of the bed. Many other 13" mortar beds have the short flat version.

Dictator had this type

shred · « **Reply #26 on:** February 19, 2014, 04:36:56 AM »

Hmm.. kind of an existential question if it's just the tube that makes the mortar or is the bed required too...

I'd guess that the odds of the Dictator tube, if it's still extant, being on the original bed are going to be slim since it seems they were transported and stored separately.

MKlein · « **Reply #27 on:** February 19, 2014, 06:59:43 AM »

Dictator to Fort Monroe (so they claim in the add)

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85038624/1865-07-15/ed-1/seq-3/#date1=1836&index=2&rows=20&words=Dictator+Petersburg&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1870&proxtext=dictator+petersburg&y=10&x=13&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

GGaskill · « **Reply #28 on:** February 19, 2014, 03:16:42 PM »

The ad/article reads:

"By the New Line of Popular U.S. Mail Steamers JAMES T. BRADY and GEORGE LEARY to Baltimore, and City Point and Dictator to Ft. Monroe, City Point, Petersburg and Richmond. ..."

The text appears to be listing the stopping points of the steamships James T. Brady and George Leary on their circuits. I think Dictator in this context is a placename, not a reference to the mortar. Dictator is not listed in Google maps. It may have disappeared or its name may have changed. I do not think this is referring to a transfer of the Dictator mortar to Ft. Monroe or anywhere else.

MKlein · « **Reply #29 on:** February 19, 2014, 06:20:31 PM »

I think you are right George. After further reading, it looks like the Dictator they mentioned wasn't a place but a steamboat named Dictator.
I think newspaper adds used to charge by the letter so they kept it short.

http://books.google.com/books?id=si4SAAAAYAAJ&q=JAMES+T.+BRADY++GEORGE+LEARY+dictator&dq=JAMES+T.+BRADY++GEORGE+LEARY+dictator&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DdQFU_GXB6ecyQGP84D4CQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg