Author Topic: 9mm for deer  (Read 7808 times)

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Offline bcraig

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9mm for deer
« on: February 08, 2014, 09:01:44 AM »
I have handgun hunted for umteen years but always with a 44 mag of some sort.
Curious whether anyone here has used the 9mm on deer and what kind of penetration and expansion you got?What load did you use?
IF I decided to do so it would be 35 yards or so max and only under perfect conditions.
Thanks
Craig

Offline Bigeasy

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2014, 11:16:08 AM »
I have no doubt a 9mm loaded with a modern controlled expansion hollow point, say a Gold Dot or PDX-1, applied to the ribs of a broadside deer would work well.  But you are taking a risk on anything other then a perfect, close shot.  I have killed quite a few deer with a 9mm pistol, but that was when I was a trooper, and these were deer that had been hit by cars - not the same thing as hunting them.

Larry
Personal opinion is a good thing, and everyone is entitled to one.  The hard part is separating informed opinion from someone who is just blowing hot air....

Offline bcraig

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2014, 12:18:28 PM »
I have no doubt a 9mm loaded with a modern controlled expansion hollow point, say a Gold Dot or PDX-1, applied to the ribs of a broadside deer would work well.  But you are taking a risk on anything other then a perfect, close shot.  I have killed quite a few deer with a 9mm pistol, but that was when I was a trooper, and these were deer that had been hit by cars - not the same thing as hunting them.

Larry
I have no problem with using it under ideal conditions as I have been hunting for 42 of my 54 years and 12 years of that was handgun only.
I would be hunting with a rifle and only use the (mm if everything was right based on that experience.
Just interested in the load and performance.
Thinking about the Underwood 147 gr +p+ at 1150 advertised FPS.
I am betting that that load at 25-35 steps ought to kill a deer just fine.
Thanks
Craig

Offline Lonegun1894

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2014, 09:41:53 PM »
The 147gr loadings are notorious for lack of expansion, but very good penetration, for what that is worth.  I will second the comments saying that under perfect conditions, it is capable, but far from optimal.  Other than just something different to try, may I ask why you would take such a huge step down from your normal use of a .44 all the way to the marginal 9mm?  I mean, yes, it can do it, and I have done it on hogs, but most of my use of a 9mm was against a different type of "game", and based on those experiences, I will recommend that whatever you do, stay away from any FMJ loads, and the 147gr HPs I have seen have performed either identically to FMJs or very occasionally gave very slightly improved performance over FMJs, but not by much at all.  If you insist on trying this anyway, keep your shots at the close ranges you mentioned, and go with a 124ish grain weight bullet as a compromise of decent weight for caliber and high enough velocity to expand inside of your stated range.  Then take only perfect shots and pass on any that give you any hint of not being perfect.  Now I love the .357 Mag for deer/hog size game, but I always load that with a wide flat nose cast or HP in the 158gr range.  The 9mm in comparison, has a fairly rounded or even pointed profile, which doesn't give the same efficient performance of the flat nosed .357s.  Best of luck.

Offline Bugflipper

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2014, 10:19:25 PM »
Quite honestly with pistol or rifle if it has to use a specialty bullet I'd stay away from it. Of coarse you can kill a deer with pretty well any rifle or pistol. But when there are other better options why go down that road? As time goes on the standards drop it seems. 10 years ago a fellow would get blasted for using a 357 mag on deer here, even in rifle. Now that's becoming more common. Truthfully I imagine a 38 sp would kill them since poachers use 22 mag rifles in my area quite commonly.  Personally I don't require seeing what the lowest power or highest power I can kill one with, even back when I was into contender pistols. Of coarse not getting onto you or anything of that nature. Would just recommend more lead in a pistol caliber. That ideal shot can turn less than ideal real quick when not shooting at paper off a bench.


As for your question likely a 9mm will indeed kill a deer at 35 paces or less if a perfect shot is made. I just couldn't recommend it myself.


Have a good day.
Molon labe

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2014, 01:09:02 AM »
why would you want to if you allready own a 44mag? If its just a stunt to you to prove it can be done consider that your shooting at a living thing that feels pain and deserves to be put down humanely. Would a 9mm do it? maybe Should you use one? NO
blue lives matter

Offline Mikey

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2014, 03:21:23 AM »
Thank you Bugflipper and thank you Lloyd. 
bcraig:  I think it would be a stunt and nothing more.  Yes, the ballistics of a hot 9mm load give you the indication that it would work but think of this - the semi-auto bullet is not a flat point or a flat nose that has been hollowed out, it is a projectile designed to functionin a semi-auto pistol, not a revovler, and as a result has a different and less effective nose profile than a swc revolver buller or even a rnfp carbine bullet. 
 
Also, you are asking a 'specialty bullet', which is anything other than a fmj semi auto slug to do something it may not be designed for.  As you know, having hunted for 42 years, Whitetail have thick skins - they need it to survive the winter.  HP and soft nose slugs expand in tissue but are designed to expand in human tissue which is so much thinner than a animal pelt it is not worth the comparison.  A slug that would expand in human tissue will most likely already have expanded in a whitetail's pelt before it hits the ribcage and your shot will be for naught.
 
As bigeasy siad - he used a 9mm often for putting down vehicle hit whitetail - much different than hunting and not appropriate for a comparison of whether it will or will not work.  I once had the opportunity to chastise the hellout of a nys trooper for lousy shooting when I saw him literally miss a doe's head at near point blank range.  He fired once, she reared up and continued to bawl and he turned and walked away saying - she's dead.  I said - hey jack, turn your sorry ass around and shoot her again, you missed and on top of that you directed your shot across a busy highway and in the direction of another trooper.  Two highway employees said the same thing and the trooper got pissed at us for harrassing him and we just told him to go back and finish the damn job or we would do it for him and show him how to do it.  He was not happy having to use two shots but the last one did it.  The point here is that his hollowpointed round hit the back of the skull at a angle and followed the skull, under the pelt, until it came out the bottom of her jaw - it never entered the skull to do the job right.  And this is the sort of thing you need to consider whenthinking of using a 9mm or other semi-auto with a hp bullet to hunt with - a 10mm with a flat point is one thing but the 9 is not a 10, or a 45 for that matter.  imo.

Offline Bugflipper

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2014, 04:41:24 AM »
I can give an example of something I learned on here about 15 years ago. I was reloading 185 gr xtp in a 44 mag. My manor of thinking was I wanted the highest velocity I could get out of that long barreled SBH. They performed flawlessly many times. I never had one issue with them. All well placed single shot affairs with a quick kill. Somebody started a thread on what weight to use. GB suggested 240 gr xtp. His explanation was pretty well, a quartering shot would need the extra mass to punch through. I had only taken broadside shots up to that point so relied on GB and the ones agreeing with him. The 185s turned into practice rounds and I bought 240s.

Today if I had a 44 I'd go with 300 xtp. They weren't available back then. What I've learned over the years is with pistol rounds on deer you want to prepare for the worst that might happen, not just always expect the best. Thankfully I never had a bad shot in all the years that I used one, but the potential is always there. Even with all kinds of practice things can go wrong. I had extreme confidence in my ability, but that's just one factor of the equation.
Molon labe

Offline bcraig

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2014, 08:28:51 AM »
So while I am sure all here mean well it seems no one that has responded here so far (with the exception of Big easy)has actually done this.
I am well aware that it is not or would not be the best choice ,BUT that is not the question I asked.
I am also well aware of the hunters responsibility for a clean a kill as possible,which is why I asked the question in the first place.
I am seeking Data in that I want info on penetration and expansion etc .
I am really not interested in oppinions(however well intentioned they might be)on whether or not deer should be hunted with a 9mm Handgun.

That descion will be made by me After I see what kind of penetration and expansion are reported by those who have done this.
I really am interested in this and would like input from those who have done this.Recent information that is as I have read muych written by Lee Juras and George C Nonte about hunting with Auto pistols in which they describe the terminal results .

I see that there is a reference to speciality bullets being anything other than a FMJ?
Give me a break ,thats absurd.Even if JHP bullets were "speciality bullets "and they are not,so what?

I also see that I am taken to task for even asking and relegated to stunt status.
Asked why do so when other weapons are better suited?
In the first place I didn,t ask for oppinions on whether this was the BEST tool for the Job.
I asked about performance from those who had actually done so.
BUT seeing as to how this has been brought up ,why not just use a rifle and forget the Handgun?
Why use bows?
Why use 30-30 when so much better is available
Point is guys we all choose what we want to hunt with .
NOW IF I find out that a 9mm when shot out of a handgun at a deer at 25-35 yards or so will not penetrate to the vitals and destroy enough tissue to give a Humane kill then I will CHOOSE not to use it.
Please get off the spouting of oppinions and get to the meat of what my question was and is.
Has anyone here used the 9mm on deer and what kind of penetration and expansion did you get?What load did you use?

Thanks
Craig


Offline buck460XVR

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2014, 09:40:21 AM »
If you are proficient enough with your 9mm to hunt deer, you do not need our permission or guidance....and only you know if you are proficient enough. There is certainly the ammo and bullets out there to do the job if you do yours.
"where'd you get the gun....son?"

Offline bcraig

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2014, 09:49:42 AM »
I did not ask for permission( "our "),where do you come up with this crap?
Just because I am proficient Does not mean I should not ask a question regarding bullet performance.
This is just a generalization on your part.
IN your er uh experience which 9mm loads that  you have used on deer  can you report on their effectivness on deer?
I need to know what type of penetration and expansion YOU got on deer.
Thanks
Craig

Offline gr8ful

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2014, 10:21:24 AM »
you had better be good at blood trailing.  because unless you get a central nervous system hit, that sucker is gonna take off like nothing happened.  it will die, but recovery might be difficult.  Personally I wouldn't shoot anything with a 9mm handgun that wasn't attacking me at close range, and then I'd keep shooting it until it stopped or the magazine was empty. YMMV

Offline Lonegun1894

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2014, 11:19:10 AM »
Let me try this again, and see if it helps any.  I have not shot a deer with a 9mm, but have shot hogs and enemies trying to harm me and my fellow troops overseas.  Neither was very impressed with any load I used.  I have used 115gr FMJ, which penetrated very well but terminal effect was severely lacking.  We then got hold of a few 124gr HPs (base defense against un-uniformed insurgents/terrorists so the rules saying no expanding ammo didn't extend to them), which gave decent expansion when they didn't clog the HP with clothing/skin/fat, and usually passed through if they didn't hit heavy bone.  Same performance on hogs if the HP didn't clog with skin/fat.  Also got a hold of some 147gr HPs and used them for both targets mentioned above, and got passthroughs every time unless hips got hit (shoulderblades didn't stop these), but didn't see any sign of expansion on a single one of these when fired out of a handgun.  MP5s were a different story and the added barrel length must have given enough added velocity to help, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.  Yes, the 9mm will kill deer, the question is will it kill them close enough to you and leave enough of a blood trail for you to recover the animal.  I have tracked both wounded animals and people through various terrains, ranging from city streets, to open fields, to thick brush after they were shot with various things, and the 9mm NEVER left a good blood trail regardless of load used.  If you can track VERY well and use the foot prints or a dog, this is doable, if not, well, I hope you get the perfect shot opportunity and make the perfect shot when it is presented.  I personally trust the .22LR more than I do the 9mm as at least the .22 is consistent, while the 9mm in my experience has always been very fickle as to performance on flesh. 

You're right, this is completely your decision, we were just trying to be helpful as sometimes the circumstances of a decision can make a difference as to what is recommended.  I was not trying to lecture you, and sorry you took it that way.  If you handload, and still insist on doing this, I would consider using your semi-auto 9mm as a single shot, and develop a load using a .38SPL projectile that offers a flat nose (even if a HP design) and plan on it NOT cycling your action reliably but relying on accuracy instead of capacity.  You know your conditions best, so best of luck with whatever you choose.   So is that comparable enough to deer for your purposes?  All I ask is that you remember, as we all do, that if we do something stupid, it is the animal that suffers.

Offline bcraig

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2014, 11:25:29 AM »
you had better be good at blood trailing.  because unless you get a central nervous system hit, that sucker is gonna take off like nothing happened.  it will die, but recovery might be difficult.  Personally I wouldn't shoot anything with a 9mm handgun that wasn't attacking me at close range, and then I'd keep shooting it until it stopped or the magazine was empty. YMMV

More guessing and anecdotal comments?
Some of you guys crack me up,I mean really
Reading TRULY is fundamental guys,Please read my original question.
Amazing how some get so caught up in their own beliefs and oppinions that they cant read a simple question and answer without turning it into
something it isn,t.
Apparently just wanting to comment in some form or fashion so they come up with anecdotes and or oppinions( based on no experience) because they really cant answer the Question.
While amusing, it is also at the same time rather flustrating for someone wanting to learn what kind of penetration and expansion was gotten on deer with a 9mm load.
AGAIN Please read the Question I Posted requesting data ,Please do NOT read into my question that I want your oppinion on whether it is ethical,whether I should ,whether it is the best tool for the job etc.
I will pst this here for your convenience

I am curious whether anyone here has used the 9mm on deer and what kind of penetration and expansion did you get?
What load did you use?

Offline bcraig

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2014, 11:49:20 AM »
Let me try this again, and see if it helps any.  I have not shot a deer with a 9mm, but have shot hogs and enemies trying to harm me and my fellow troops overseas.  Neither was very impressed with any load I used.  I have used 115gr FMJ, which penetrated very well but terminal effect was severely lacking.  We then got hold of a few 124gr HPs (base defense against un-uniformed insurgents/terrorists so the rules saying no expanding ammo didn't extend to them), which gave decent expansion when they didn't clog the HP with clothing/skin/fat, and usually passed through if they didn't hit heavy bone.  Same performance on hogs if the HP didn't clog with skin/fat.  Also got a hold of some 147gr HPs and used them for both targets mentioned above, and got passthroughs every time unless hips got hit (shoulderblades didn't stop these), but didn't see any sign of expansion on a single one of these when fired out of a handgun.  MP5s were a different story and the added barrel length must have given enough added velocity to help, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.  Yes, the 9mm will kill deer, the question is will it kill them close enough to you and leave enough of a blood trail for you to recover the animal.  I have tracked both wounded animals and people through various terrains, ranging from city streets, to open fields, to thick brush after they were shot with various things, and the 9mm NEVER left a good blood trail regardless of load used.  If you can track VERY well and use the foot prints or a dog, this is doable, if not, well, I hope you get the perfect shot opportunity and make the perfect shot when it is presented.  I personally trust the .22LR more than I do the 9mm as at least the .22 is consistent, while the 9mm in my experience has always been very fickle as to performance on flesh. 

You're right, this is completely your decision, we were just trying to be helpful as sometimes the circumstances of a decision can make a difference as to what is recommended.  I was not trying to lecture you, and sorry you took it that way.  If you handload, and still insist on doing this, I would consider using your semi-auto 9mm as a single shot, and develop a load using a .38SPL projectile that offers a flat nose (even if a HP design) and plan on it NOT cycling your action reliably but relying on accuracy instead of capacity.  You know your conditions best, so best of luck with whatever you choose.   So is that comparable enough to deer for your purposes?  All I ask is that you remember, as we all do, that if we do something stupid, it is the animal that suffers.

 First off thanks for your service,and Thanks for your experience here.
Few questions for you if you dont mind.
When you say hogs and enemies werent impressed what do you mean?
Did they continue to fight ? Run,?
Next .I was under the impression that using a carbine lenght barrel did not increase the velocity with a 9mm load and in fact sometimes resulted in a decrease in velocity ?
I have also tracked animals and often with no blood trail until I found the deer and then there was blood where the animal lay.
And this with 30-06 class of rifles.

Next is an observation and that is a 22 is anything but consistant.
I cant see that a 30 plus grain bullet would be more constant than a 115 grain plus bullet!
In my experience any bullet in any caliber or weight can enter in one spot and deflect to another.
I HAVE been shot in chest with 22 rimfire hollowpoint and bullet did not exit with straight line penetration.
I also have shot a deer with a 44 mag (corbon )at 40 yards out of a 10 inch Contender and the bullet entered the ribs behind shoulder at a broadside shot and exited between the ears!


getting to your last sentence ,The question I asked was not stupid.And using a load that will penetrate and expand in a deers lungs and kill cleanly is not stupid either.
just a question of actual bullet performance.
I am well aware of cause and effect in life.
I think that destroying a deers lungs with a 9mm bullet or destroying them with a 44 mag is still destroying their lungs and causing death.
Dont know how much suffering there is in either case.

Thanks
Craig

PS you say that you didn,t see any sign that the 147 Grain bullets expanded.
Did you cut the body open to see if anymore tissue was destroyed with them than the FMJ bullets?
Reason I ask is that just because the entrance and exit holes are "approximately "the same size doesn,t mean a bullet did not expand.

Offline gr8ful

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2014, 12:42:56 PM »
Craig my experience with the 9mm is much the same as Lonegun's.  I base my opinion on experience.  the majority of my experience with 9mm in a handgun was with 115gr tmj's and required multiple hits often with no observable reaction.  Several times I observed enemy combatants take multiple hits and run away.  I am also an avid handgun hunter.  I have taken deer with cartridges as small as 256 Win Mag, 22 hornet and 38 Special. I prefer larger rounds in my contender though.  I have also shot a deer with a high-point carbine in 9mm.  Load was 147gr Winchester Ranger HP and range was about 15 yards.  it broke the neck and lodged in the shoulder on the off side penetration was about 12 inches, almost no expansion only flattened the nose of the bullet on one side.  no blood trailing though, because she was dead right there.

Offline bcraig

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2014, 02:55:34 PM »
Craig my experience with the 9mm is much the same as Lonegun's.  I base my opinion on experience.  the majority of my experience with 9mm in a handgun was with 115gr tmj's and required multiple hits often with no observable reaction.  Several times I observed enemy combatants take multiple hits and run away.  I am also an avid handgun hunter.  I have taken deer with cartridges as small as 256 Win Mag, 22 hornet and 38 Special. I prefer larger rounds in my contender though.  I have also shot a deer with a high-point carbine in 9mm.  Load was 147gr Winchester Ranger HP and range was about 15 yards.  it broke the neck and lodged in the shoulder on the off side penetration was about 12 inches, almost no expansion only flattened the nose of the bullet on one side.  no blood trailing though, because she was dead right there.

Thank you for your service .
Thank you for relating your the 9mm performance as well.
Actually sounds like decent performance .
Thanks again
Craig

Offline Lonegun1894

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2014, 04:07:27 PM »
First off, I apologize because I did not mean to imply your question was stupid.  What I meant was just that we each have to live with the results of our actions and the results are that much more important when shooting against flesh.  I chose my words poorly and hope I didn't offend you.

Ok, as to "not impressed", I meant that unless CNS or major bones were hit that prevented a target running away or continueing to fight, the rounds didn't have much effect of even slowing down the target much at all.  Sometimes this meant them continueing to fight and requiring multiple hits to stop the attack, other times they would try and run away and we would pursue.  The shortest chases were when the target was shot again and the shot was better placed to hit CNS or weight-bearing bones, wich resulted in immediate stops.  Other times, we would pursue for over a mile before a capture, or in a handful of cases, not recovering the target.  As to recovering the bullets, well, this is somewhat morbid to some people, but we attempted to recover bullets that passed through and with barricades and such creating a funnel effect along with a solid backstop to allow collection of spent rounds, we recovered quite a few.  In the cases of the ones that did not pass through, we had doctors who insisted on trying to save lives even if they were enemy lives, so the ones that stayed in the target were also almost always recovered--unless the doctor thought he would endanger the life of his patient further by going after the projectile.  As to hogs, same kind of performance except that the hogs tried to get away instead of attacking.  Recovery was accomplished either during the cleaning/butchering process, or dug out of creek banks that acted as backstops when we would sit along the top of the bank and bait down by the creek bed and shoot at a downward angle allowing recovery. 

Going by chronograph readings a few years ago, most of the rounds we tested (mostly handloads and a few factory) did get slight increases in performance in carbine barrels over what they did in handgun barrels.  I no longer have the notes so please forgive me not being to give info for specific loads, but the handguns used were Glock 17s and Beretta 92s, and the carbines were MP5s and a Hipoint 995.  The carbines usually got higher velocities, but not always, and the readings were usually 150-300fps higher for the same load fired from a  carbine than a handgun.  Not much, but enough to help expansion. 

I'm glad to hear that you're an experienced tracker, as that skill is always a good one to have, especially since we're discussing handgun hunting here.  I hope you don't need it, but it's a great advantage to you. 

I have tested .22 side by side with 9mm, and as long as high quality ammo is used out of a good weapon, I have gotten more consistent results with .22 Match loads than I have with good quality defensive ammo.  I know there's a different focus between the two, and that defensive ammo doesn't require the same level of accuracy as target specific ammo, but I personally disagree with the way that assessment, even though I have been told that by many people including a couple involved in manufacturing said defensive ammo.  I personally would rather lose when shooting for a trophy than when shooting to live, but I'm picky like that. Now if we're talking bargain loads, bulk packs, etc, yes, they're serviceable, but not the best available.  I hunt hogs with a .22LR handgun frequently, and always get pass throughs.  Now I limit my shots to broadside, with impact being just behind the elbow, which results in the .22 HP going through both lungs and the heart, and exiting just behind the other elbow.  I have done the same with 9mm, and get quicker kills and shorter tracking jobs with the .22.  The .22 is always within 50yds, and usually less than 20yds.  The 9mm was usually 20-75yds, with most being 50-60ish yds.  It honestly surprised me a lot as I was expecting better performance with the 9mm, but I can't argue with what I see happen in front of me when I squeeze the trigger and then do the autopsy immediately after while cleaning.  All I can figure is that the 9mm is at a marginal velocity for expansion with the common bullet designs available, while the .22 is made as soft as possible to allow expansion even in squirrel and rabbit, so it has the better expansion qualities, allowing it to kill out of proportion to what we would expect when looking at ballistic tables. 

I don't know if you bowhunt, but if you do, you're very familiar with the tactics that will allow you to get close enough to get to within effective range.  If you don't handload, and I should have thought of this before, but you could try one of the loads marketed for short barreled pistol use, as the bullets are designed to expand at lower velocity, which were not available, or at least not available to me, when I was using 9mms.  Now that I thought of them, it's making me want to get a box, dust off my Glock, and find a hog.  You're a bad influence, you know that?

Offline gr8ful

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2014, 09:13:57 PM »
Craig I always carry a handgun when rifle hunting and often use it to harvest game inside my appropriate ranges.  Let me tell you a 70gr 256 win mag to the neck at 25 yards results in a spectacular drop also a 38 special 148 gr dewc at 15 ft to the neck is also a drt shot. Not spectacular but still drt, shot placement is key.  I don't think I would go for heart and lung shots with the 9mm but a for sure neck or head shot I'd be ok.  On head shots be sure to be ready for follow up shots in the event of a graze/knock out hit.  9 mm doesn't bleed as a matter of course same with 357 mag in a handgun.  I have had dismal results from 357mag with Jhps as proof.  I have had better results with LBT 180gr cast.  Better wound channels and not a recovered bullet yet.  Also better blood trails on double lung shots.  Others may disagree.  357 max is a bit different horse especially in a carbine.as the results I had this year will show. A 140 gr ftx at 2000 fps and a high shoulder shot that nicked the backbone resulted in a bang flop at 110 yards. 

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2014, 03:15:20 AM »
I too am in the camp of never have done it but did shoot a couple does back in the day with a 38special using comparable loads and found it lacking. Yes you can make the argument that a properly placed shot even with a 22lr will deck a deer. Sure cant argue that. (ive done that too) But i was younger and dumber and I guess for some reason i had to see if it would work. I found it very lacking and shelved the idea quickly. Anymore you will find me more in the camp of the guys that use to much gun if anything. Im not beyond shooting whitetail with my 8mag, 3ooultra and 7stw. Are they needed? Heck no but they sure do knock the snot out of deer and with a well placed shot and by well placed i dont mean a 3 inch target in the brain i mean a behind the shoulder shot that is a 100 percent doable. In a perfect world a guy would be able to walk up 20 yards from a deer take out his shooting sticks and get a rock solid rest and place a bullet right in the brain every time but anyone thats hunted deer more then a year knows thats seldom the circumstances. I may think a bit differntly then others. I shoot alot of deer every year and my first priority in how i do it is to take out as much chance of the animal suffering as i can. I know that i cant take it all out and that every deer i kill will feel some pain before it dies but when you track and watch suffer just to many deer you get over that "whats the smallest thing i can use" train of thought real fast. Theres a train of thought some hunters have that its about a sin to wast 5lbs of scrap meat using a big gun. Me i think differnt, i think its a sin to be so gready that you will allow an animal to suffer just to get 5lbs more hamburger.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2014, 08:56:43 AM »
I have killed several deer with one 00 buck shot. A round ball going at best 1200 FPS. Why wouldn't a 9 do the same thing ?
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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2014, 11:29:10 AM »
I wouldn't have a problem with an 124 gr. XTP or similar at 40 yards or less on a perfectly placed deer.  Put it in the heart/lungs.  Many killed with less...
 
Might have to track a bit...
 
I wouldn't use the 147 gr or 115 gr bullets.  I'd look for the mid-range bullets at the highest velocity I could find.  Every inch of barrel you can get would be a benefit.
 
If I really wanted to do it, I'd get a T/C with a 10" or 12" barrel and get to it.
 
NGH
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Offline bcraig

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2014, 07:55:30 PM »
I too am in the camp of never have done it but did shoot a couple does back in the day with a 38special using comparable loads and found it lacking. Yes you can make the argument that a properly placed shot even with a 22lr will deck a deer. Sure cant argue that. (ive done that too) But i was younger and dumber and I guess for some reason i had to see if it would work. I found it very lacking and shelved the idea quickly. Anymore you will find me more in the camp of the guys that use to much gun if anything. Im not beyond shooting whitetail with my 8mag, 3ooultra and 7stw. Are they needed? Heck no but they sure do knock the snot out of deer and with a well placed shot and by well placed i dont mean a 3 inch target in the brain i mean a behind the shoulder shot that is a 100 percent doable. In a perfect world a guy would be able to walk up 20 yards from a deer take out his shooting sticks and get a rock solid rest and place a bullet right in the brain every time but anyone thats hunted deer more then a year knows thats seldom the circumstances. I may think a bit differntly then others. I shoot alot of deer every year and my first priority in how i do it is to take out as much chance of the animal suffering as i can. I know that i cant take it all out and that every deer i kill will feel some pain before it dies but when you track and watch suffer just to many deer you get over that "whats the smallest thing i can use" train of thought real fast. Theres a train of thought some hunters have that its about a sin to wast 5lbs of scrap meat using a big gun. Me i think differnt, i think its a sin to be so gready that you will allow an animal to suffer just to get 5lbs more hamburger.
Hi Loyd,thanks for the experience
I too have shot the big mags ,300 Weatherbys and yep they kill at both ends!
But we are talking about handguns Loyd and any bullet fro a handgun isn,t going to kill consistently like the rifles we both have experience with.
I hunt on our family farm ,most of the time out of a tree stand and have the disipline not to take a shot if it is not right.
When you talk about suffering ,no I dont want a suffering animal which is why I would limit my shots if ithe shot isn,t good the either I wont shoot or I will use my rifle.
Suffering? who knows for sure but I really dont think a deer is going to suffer any more when a 9mm bullet that strikes the right spot at short range destroys the lungs and penetrates than if something else is on the headstamp.
I am quite sure I wont be sinning to take shots at short range with a properly placed bullet that penetrates and destroys lungs regardless of what it says on the end of the case.

Offline Mikey

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2014, 02:24:49 AM »
bcraig:  OK, are you happy now, and finally satisfied with the answers you have received that tell you you can do it with a 9mm.  Nobody ever said you couldn't or that it wouldn't, but it appears you needed to hear or read only those words that would give you peace of mind when using a 9mm on whitetail.  You won't be sinning to take shots at close range - what, now you bring God into the equation to give you greater peace of mind while you are trying some stunt. 
 
Hey - take a look at any semi auto factory load and you will see the type/style profile/ogive necessary to properly feed a semi-auto round through its action - now take another look and compare it to your 44 mag bullet - is it squared at the top?  Is it flatnosed?  Is it a swc type revolver bullet.  No,  it has a narrow profile to allow for proper feeding and this narrow profile and tapered ogive do not let the bullet react on target as do bullets like swc slugs from a revolver.  Hence, when someone says if its a hp or soft nose it is a specialty bullet they aren't opening the forum for discussion, they are letting you know that this different bullet profile even with a hp or sn, the one for semi-autos is the best designers can come up with to get the semi-auto slugs to work more effectively on human tissue, which has already been explained to you that it is so much thinner than whitetail tissue that the same semi-auto slug most likely will not work on Whitetails.
 
But hey, since you are such a expert here then please explain to me why all (yes, every single semi-auto bullet made before someone tried 'improving' the 9mm bullets) semi-auto bullets made before the late 60s were fmj and even today the standard slug for most semi-auto cartridges is fmj.  Hey - I'll tell ya what - don't bother explaining it to me.  Someone else may be interested to hear what you have to say but I'm not. We tried our best to give you the best answers we could come up with but since you know so much, then you best ask God to help that 9mm slug kill that whitetail
 
Halfway through this thread you told any number of us that we were full of crap or that what we were saying was bs.  You also told us that you have so much experience that you will only listen to those 'experienced' (with using a 9mm on whitetail), and you have disagreed with much of what was posted in response. 
 
Has it not occurred to you that the reason you may not have received so many of the types of responses you wanted to read is that with all the thousands of members on this forum there are precious few who have tried this, and quite possibly for a really good reason but hey, while you are sitting in that tree stand think about what you want to do.  If it works for you, don't bother coming back to tell us because I think it would set a bad precedent and if it doesn't work, don't bother telling us about that either. 

Offline Savage .250

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2014, 03:32:44 AM »
Is it legal where you hunt deer?   Just asking.
" The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2014, 03:48:57 AM »
In Va. you have to use a gun with 350 ft lb of energy. to hunt deer.
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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2014, 05:15:45 AM »
bcraig:  OK, are you happy now, and finally satisfied with the answers you have received that tell you you can do it with a 9mm.  Nobody ever said you couldn't or that it wouldn't, but it appears you needed to hear or read only those words that would give you peace of mind when using a 9mm on whitetail.  You won't be sinning to take shots at close range - what, now you bring God into the equation to give you greater peace of mind while you are trying some stunt.

Well well now arent we getting a might touchy here .What a condescending attitude you display with the statement am I happy now.
It appears that some here including you cant understand and get by the preconcieved notion that a 9mm that gets enough penetration and expansion might just kill a deer pretty good.
No I DID NOT  bring God into this Loyd did and I merely commented on it. I think you need to quit "taking sides "so to speak .
The Fact that YOU consider this a stunt does not make it so regardless of your moderator status.
 
Hey - take a look at any semi auto factory load and you will see the type/style profile/ogive necessary to properly feed a semi-auto round through its action - now take another look and compare it to your 44 mag bullet - is it squared at the top?  Is it flatnosed?  Is it a swc type revolver bullet.  No,  it has a narrow profile to allow for proper feeding and this narrow profile and tapered ogive do not let the bullet react on target as do bullets like swc slugs from a revolver.  Hence, when someone says if its a hp or soft nose it is a specialty bullet they aren't opening the forum for discussion, they are letting you know that this different bullet profile even with a hp or sn, the one for semi-autos is the best designers can come up with to get the semi-auto slugs to work more effectively on human tissue, which has already been explained to you that it is so much thinner than whitetail tissue that the same semi-auto slug most likely will not work on Whitetails.

The forum doesn,t have to be opened so to speak on bullet design as last I checked I Have a right as an American to express a rational oppinion about most anything including bullet construction.
That having been said hollow points and soft noses are designed to increase tissue destruction in ALL calibers and what is wrong with that?
As far as design parrameters yes I am positive some are designed to stay in the human body and some are designed to penetrate more per FBI Specifications.
If a 9mm Bullet will penetrate 12 to 18 + inches into Ballistic gell the issue of it penetrating a dears lungs enough to create a humane death (as much as any death is humane)is not in question
 
But hey, since you are such a expert here then please explain to me why all (yes, every single semi-auto bullet made before someone tried 'improving' the 9mm bullets) semi-auto bullets made before the late 60s were fmj and even today the standard slug for most semi-auto cartridges is fmj.  Hey - I'll tell ya what - don't bother explaining it to me.  Someone else may be interested to hear what you have to say but I'm not. We tried our best to give you the best answers we could come up with but since you know so much, then you best ask God to help that 9mm slug kill that whitetail
Sounds like YOU are the one taking this personally ,and if you are not interested then dont read my post.
No I am not an expert but I dont necasarily consider you an expert on the subject either.
Remember I did not ask what everybody(including you )thought about the idea of me using a 9mm on deer.
I asked about penetration and expansion from those who had done it.
Noy you are bringing God into the picture.
 
Halfway through this thread you told any number of us that we were full of crap or that what we were saying was bs.  You also told us that you have so much experience that you will only listen to those 'experienced' (with using a 9mm on whitetail), and you have disagreed with much of what was posted in response.
That is a crock,Reading is fundamental and perhaps you should re read . IF you do then you will find that I asked for data about penetration and expansion.Then I was deluged with baseless oppinions about whether I should do it or not.
The part about me dissagreeing is really off the charts.
Sounds like you are saying that if a person ask for data and then gets oppinions that he should agree with the oppinions or he shouldn,t ask for data.
That is laughable
I did not even ask for an oppinion but if I had of I suppose your word on anything is the last word?
Sounds to me like you are the one that has an expert oppinion of yourself. 
 
Has it not occurred to you that the reason you may not have received so many of the types of responses you wanted to read is that with all the thousands of members on this forum there are precious few who have tried this, and quite possibly for a really good reason but hey, while you are sitting in that tree stand think about what you want to do.  If it works for you, don't bother coming back to tell us because I think it would set a bad precedent and if it doesn't work, don't bother telling us about that either.

So it sets a bad precedent to present accurate information to members?
Although you are a moderator last I checked GRAYBEARD was the owner of this site .
Now If he tells me he doesn,t want me to post then I wont but this is not your site just for your use and
I wont be bullied by you just because we dissaggree.

No one has been hurt by my post including you.

I have not posted anything that is off limits or prohibited.




Offline Mikey

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2014, 07:28:52 AM »
"So it sets a bad precedent to present accurate information to members?"  No, it sets a bad precedent to pass off marginal information that could result in bad results as accurate.
 
"Although you are a moderator last I checked GRAYBEARD was the owner of this site ".  He always has been and I hope he continues on for many more years, and he has always had the authority to decide the appropriateness and merits of postings.  And, although I may be the moderator of this forum I have not once effected that position in this thread to manipulate any responses. 
 
"I wont be bullied by you just because we disagree".  I'm sorry, but I really don't know how to respond to someone so sensitive, especially since you have been hunting for 42 years.  Pardon me while I go slap myself around for being such a booger.
 
"I have not posted anything that is off limits or prohibited".   Now who on earth ever said you did that in this thread; and let's not interpret.



 

Offline bcraig

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2014, 12:44:49 PM »
"So it sets a bad precedent to present accurate information to members?"  No, it sets a bad precedent to pass off marginal information that could result in bad results as accurate.

There you go with the assumption that it sets a bad precedent,marginal information according to who?
You mikey,? If I do so I will merely explain how far the bullet penetrated and how much expansion took place .
How is that inaccurate Information?
 
"Although you are a moderator last I checked GRAYBEARD was the owner of this site ".  He always has been and I hope he continues on for many more years, and he has always had the authority to decide the appropriateness and merits of postings.  And, although I may be the moderator of this forum I have not once effected that position in this thread to manipulate any responses.

Well you are affecting this thread with your inability to accept a rational Question.
Apparently you dislike the idea so much that you cant accept that your oppinion wasn,t asked for .
I just asked a simple question about penetration and expansion and you have taken off on a tangent to chastise me for not taking your or anothers OPPINION which wasn,t asked for in the first place.
 
"I wont be bullied by you just because we disagree".  I'm sorry, but I really don't know how to respond to someone so sensitive, especially since you have been hunting for 42 years.  Pardon me while I go slap myself around for being such a booger.

I am not sensitive just because I dont grovel at your oppinion about taking a deer ,keeping in mind it wasn,t asked for in the first place.
You might want to slap yourself for stirring crap and makeing this thread which started as a simple question into your personal adgenda to set me straight.
You have an issue with me stating I have been hunting for 42 years ? Deal with it mikey.
 
"I have not posted anything that is off limits or prohibited".   Now who on earth ever said you did that in this thread; and let's not interpret.
That was in response to you saying not to post on the board if I did kill a deer with a 9mm handgun.
I do believe anyone who had been told that would think that must be the case or you would not have said not to post it.
IF there is nothing wrong with me posting a question and there is nothing wrong with me posting an pic and story about any deer I take with a 9mm handgun then the only other reason because you dont want to see it or hear it (which you have said by the way)

so mikey as long as Graybeard doesn,t think there is anything wrong with me posting the question I posted,
And as long as it is okay by him to post a pick and story about a perfectly legal handgun kill I will do so.

Just because you have no interest in this does not mean that no one else does.
People learn from others experience mikey and not too much from unsolicited baseless oppinions.

I dont know why this seems to upset you but I did not post the question about the penetration and expansion of a 9mm bullet in deer to cause an issue with you or anyone else for that matter.

I just wanted the data ,please try to understand this.

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: 9mm for deer
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2014, 03:43:02 PM »
Of course it will work.  The big bore fans (of which I'm one) do not have a monopoly on deer killing. 

A deer is very easy to kill.  Because it's the number one game animal in the U.S., many make it out to be difficult to take.  It's ego among the very serious whitetail hunters that cause them to scoff at lesser guns than they use. 

A 124 grain +P+ in 9mm performs exactly the same as a Sig .357.   A standard pressure 9mm hp will do the job nicely.