Author Topic: Which to buy??? Please help me out! (Read 1462 times)

Chris B. · « **on:** February 24, 2004, 09:34:11 PM »

Hello all! This is my 1st post here and I can't wait to learn more about single action revolvers!

I'm going to buy my 1st revolver soon, maybe even tomorrow! Right now I shoot Sig's and Springfield XD pistols but I want to move into the single action revolver! I'm looking at the Ruger Vaquero, American Western Arms and a Beretta Stampede all in 45LC. What are the pros and cons to these and are there any other pistols in the $300-500 range I should look at?

The local gun shop is pushing the Beretta over the Ruger saying that the Ruger parts are cast made and the Beretta is machined making it much stronger? Is this true? Are the Vaqueros cast steel and why would this make it less strong?

Any input or advice is greatly appreciated and Thanks! :grin:

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #1 on:** February 24, 2004, 11:49:18 PM »

Id probably buy the ruger. But if its your only single action id consider an adjustable sighted blackhawk. None of them are even close to being as strong as a ruger. You will find the usaf gun has better fit and fininsh. I have heard good things about the beretta to but havent shot one yet. If you get the ruger which is the one i recomend figure on at least a trigger job as there usually not useable out of the box.

raynor · « **Reply #2 on:** February 25, 2004, 12:10:03 AM »

Another vote for the Ruger Blackhawk. ~~ SV

tominboise · « **Reply #3 on:** February 25, 2004, 04:17:05 AM »

Regarding the strength of the Beretta versus the ruger - the materials used (casting versus machined bar stock) play a much smaller role than the design of the pistol itself. The Ruger is a much stronger design the the Colt SAA and it's clones, regardless of the material that the clones are made from. Find another gunshop if this is what they are telling you.

Regarding the choice of pistols, what are you going to use it for? If for just shooting, I'd definately choose the Ruger (I have 5 ruger single actions myself). If you are wanting to get into CASS, then one of the others may be more appropriate.

Tom

Flint · « **Reply #4 on:** February 25, 2004, 04:56:55 AM »

The "materials" are the grades of steel, not the manufacturing methods. The investment cast steel used by Ruger is vastly stronger and harder than anything made in Italy. It is so hard that early Rugers would hardly take a blue, and you have probably seen the "red" colored Ruger parts. If you want a lesson in strength and hardness, try to polish a Ruger for refinishing, it's like trying to polish granite. The Italian cartridge guns are indeed harder than their cap & ball guns which are almost soft enough to machine with your teeth, but nowhere near as strong and hard as a Ruger.

Chris B. · « **Reply #5 on:** February 25, 2004, 07:23:37 AM »

Thank you for the help and info gentlemen! I will start up just shooting this gun for plinking and just all around "practice" to get the feel of point shooting. I will look into the trigger job, how much is this on average? Looks like it is the Blackhawk or Vaquero! I do like the looks of the Vq the best though!

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 25, 2004, 08:45:54 AM »

Many of us have experienced point of impact problems with the Ruger Vaqueros. (don't shoot where you aim) Often times it can be contributed to the shooter but still requires turning the barrel to adjust the sites to an individuals needs. Both mine shot significantly left and low. I have heard that with southpaws right and low is common. I presume these guns are factory zeroed with a machine rest and that is the root of the problem.
How about the Bisley design? More traditional like the vaquero but with adjustable sight and a different grip.

Bullseye · « **Reply #7 on:** February 25, 2004, 01:59:35 PM »

I would not buy a gun without adjustable sights unless it was required for CASS or something.

Chris B. · « **Reply #8 on:** February 25, 2004, 08:53:54 PM »

Ok fellas,

I was talked into the Beretta! After fondeling the Vaquero and Stampede for an hour I took the Stampede. I'm an ex-machinest/metal worker and Machined steel is always better then cast. I hope I'm right on that reguarding guns. Anyway the fit and finish was nicer then the VQ and was much tighter overall and the trigger was much nicer. Now I guess time will tell how she holds up to some abuse! Thank you all again for you input and please feel free and try to convince me to go traid up for a Ruger!

Heak I'll probibly end up with both anyway in time! :grin: Thank you again and please fell free to give me anymore advice as I'm still new to this type of gun! :wink:

DzrtRat · « **Reply #9 on:** February 26, 2004, 03:18:26 AM »

Chris,

When you buy ammo for the .45 Colt, you'll find some that's only recommended for Rugers and a few other guns that are known to be very strong. Don't (I repeat DON"T) use that level of ammo in ANY Colt clone (which is what you bought). It very likely won't hold the pressures, and the results would be disasterous!

There are some custom gun makers out there who use the Ruger SA frames as the base for building custom revolvers. The reason they use them is because they are the strongest frames available.

The revolver you bought is sure to be a fine firearm. Just keep the loads that you shoot within SAAMI spec's for Colt clone revolvers.

Good luck! I hope you enjoy your new revolver.

~Rat

Graybeard · « **Reply #10 on:** February 26, 2004, 03:36:30 AM »

You have made a very poor choice in my opinion. Based on your comment about seeing how much abuse it will take you are headed for trouble.

A Colt clone is a Colt clone. NONE of them have even close to the strength of a Ruger. NONE of them are recommended for loads over black powder level pressures. NONE of them will hold up long to such pressures. Now that you've done it stick to loads listed in manuals for Colt guns and NEVER EVER even think about using Ruger level loads in it.

Quote

I'm an ex-machinest/metal worker and Machined steel is always better then cast.

Dunno what you base that on but in the real world of today that's just not a fair statement to make. I'm sure not a fan of Ruger guns but they do make guns as strong as most any on the market and do it all with castings. Machined steel is still either a casting or a forging. Can be either. So how does maching make it stronger? It can't. Never has, never will. Now had you claimed a forging was stronger than a casting many would have in times past agreed with that. But Ruger has really proven that is not the case today.

GB

Chris B. · « **Reply #11 on:** February 26, 2004, 07:19:12 AM »

Rats!!!! This is what happends when you don't do enough researsh! Well I guess I did not marry it so I could always trade up. I like the Idea of a stronger gun even if it means giving a little on fit and finish, kind of buying a Chevy or Ford instead of a BMW SUV! So how will this gun hold up with just shooting cheep plinker rounds? How long is the life expectency? Will it last as long as the Ruger shooting these loads?
Thanks again gentelmen!

Chris B. · « **Reply #12 on:** February 26, 2004, 09:11:25 AM »

Can you guys explaine what makes the Ruger stronger? Why is it so strong? Thank you!

DzrtRat · « **Reply #13 on:** February 26, 2004, 11:47:35 AM »

Chris,

Lots of things affect the strength of steel. What metals are used, the heat treatment, and how much steel there is makes all the difference. Ruger SA revolvers are larger than the Colts and clones, and that's one reason they are stronger. Also, whatever Ruger does with the steel they use in their guns, they've got it down pat.

When I was looking to buy a SA .45 Colt revolver, I went to a local gunshop to look at a few. Now, I don't have to attend an SASS shoot to dress like a cowboy 'cause that's the way I dress every day...and always have. Well, the salesman says to me, "Well, you LOOK like a cowboy. You might as well buy you a gun so you can feel like a REAL one." (now I'm thinking "what an assinine &*%$#@$%!) I'd say his sales approach needed a little help, becaues I already owned more guns than I care to count. The salesman then tried the same thing with me that happened to you: he tried to convince me that the Uberti was every bit as strong as the Ruger. When I mentioned that I intended to use heavy handloads, he told me it was more than strong enough to shoot anything the Ruger would handle.

Now, another thing he didn't know was that I've owned and shot guns all of my life, his boss (the owner of the store) was an aquaintance of mine, and I used to work at that same gunshop back in the '80's when it was under different ownership. I KNEW what he was telling me was a lie, but I just acted the part of the stupid cowboy that maybe got kicked in the head a couple too many times as a kid and said things like "Really? WOW, I didn't know that!"

I never did tell him what a silly fool he had made of himself, but I think maybe his boss did. I haven't seen him there in a long, long time. It serves him right, too.

A day or so later I bought a Vaquero from a shop a few blocks away, and I've spent a lot of money at that shop since then. I don't deal with folks who insult me a feed me BS, and the other fella's treated me more than fair.

~Rat

cz4me · « **Reply #14 on:** February 26, 2004, 12:54:13 PM »

Vhris B: A little late to the party, but I hope you'll give your purchase a test before losing money on a trade. I think you heard from a bunch of Ruger boosters. I love my BH, 10/22, etc., but wouldn't dream of a Vaquero.

les hemby · « **Reply #15 on:** February 26, 2004, 02:27:10 PM »

i agree. i am sure its a fine weapon that will last a life time. just dont run loads meant for ruger in it. if you dont shoot heavy loads you should be very happy :wink:

Chris B. · « **Reply #16 on:** February 26, 2004, 03:23:52 PM »

Quote from: cz4me

Vhris B: A little late to the party, but I hope you'll give your purchase a test before losing money on a trade. I think you heard from a bunch of Ruger boosters. I love my BH, 10/22, etc., but wouldn't dream of a Vaquero.

What do you mean you would not dream of a Vaquero? Thanks. :-)

DirtyHarry · « **Reply #17 on:** February 26, 2004, 06:01:52 PM »

CHRIS

There was a healty discussion on investment casting vs Forging here http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=16203&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=cast

Since this discussion I have talked to two different unbiased people(both engineers) that are directly in the field, both of them told me basically,without getting into the whole metal grain alignment aspect, that invesment castings are good but the main advantage to this process is that it is more cost effective in the long run than forging and machining, and they both echoed what Paul S. said in the above thread, all things the same the forged piece is stronger than the cast piece. It is clear to me that ruger wants everyone to believe invest cast is better beacuse they OWN two invest cast companys.
After visiting thier web page I did not see where they made the claim casting was stronger, in fact I didnt even see that aspect adressed at all :?

tominboise · « **Reply #18 on:** February 26, 2004, 06:26:41 PM »

Forgetting about the material the two revolvers are fabricated from for the moment, the fact is that the rugers are generally tougher revolvers due to the nature of their design - i.e. more cross sectional area in the top strap, more cross sectional area in the frame around the barrel boss, deeper frame sections front and rear, etc, etc, etc. If you machined a ruger out of a forging it might be stronger yet, but the fact remains that the design of the Ruger results in an "optimized" single action over the Colt SAA and it's clones. After all, it was designed 70 years after the Colt, so it should be optimized.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #19 on:** February 26, 2004, 11:12:38 PM »

got to agree with graybeard if you bought this gun to experiment with anything over factory level what i would do is go back to the gunshop and tell that joker that he sold you the wrong gun and you want your money back. I wouldnt even consider buying the ruger from him find a gun shop that has a salesman thats honest. I actually got into a shouting match with some idoit salesman in the local gander mountain. He actually had the nerve to tell a customer that the .270 he was looking at was on the border of being underpowered for whitetail hunting! He was trying to sell this pore fool a wis bang 300 short mag for twice the money. Trying to get a bigger commission. HE told the guy that he had lost 4 deer to his .270 before he switched to a kimber in 300 mag. He also told this guy that savage rifles were junk and were a low line product made by remington. Thats when I blew! Good news was that the guy believed me and walked out with me and i set him up with my buddy who has an ffl and we got him a nice rem mountain rifle in .270 and he killed two deer with it this year and called a couple times to thank me. Moral of the story is that theres lots of salesman that dont know there *** from a hole in the ground. The beretta is a fine gun dont get me wrong id like to have one myself. But like greybeard said if your going to even load moderately heavy loads do yourself a favor and get a gun that can take it. Hate to see someone waste money on a gun that isnt going to hold up and end up in a box or worse yet hurt someone.

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #20 on:** February 27, 2004, 04:43:19 AM »

When my Wife picked up my new Vaquero, the salesman and his chrony were gracious enough to tell her that I was a very lucky man, but assinine enough to tell her that this gun was for cowboy shooting only and could not be used for hunting.
I had a great laugh.

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 27, 2004, 06:37:12 AM »

A couple of facts:

Ruger has a history. They have proven themselves to be a very strong gun.

The berettas (SA revolvers) do not have much history yet. They may be as strong they may not. It has yet to be proven.

That being said the advise given is resonable. How many times have we been told "it is so" by experts only to have them proved wrong by experience?

Chris B. · « **Reply #22 on:** February 27, 2004, 01:50:09 PM »

Thank to everyone again! What I decided to do is to keep the Stampede but I'm going to also scrape up the cash and buy the Vaquero. I like the short 3 3/4 inch barrol and bird head grip. It is a nice small gun that will pack well in the woods and can handle the hot loads and the Beretta for factory ammo and accuracy. This way I can try both and see which I like. I will probibly end up with both as do with all my guns! Their just too much fun!

Now befor I but the Small Vaquero bird head, it will handle the hot loads form Cor-bon and Bufflo right?

DzrtRat · « **Reply #23 on:** February 27, 2004, 04:21:46 PM »

Chris B said:

Quote

Now befor I but the Small Vaquero bird head, it will handle the hot loads form Cor-bon and Bufflo right?

Yessiree, it sure will, mi amigo.

I got a question though. Meanin' no offense, but are you funnin' with us?

Something you ought to think about:

That small bird's head grip is pretty small for hangin' on to a pistola that's going to have some recoil. Them there Cor-Bon 300 grain JSP's got a little thump to 'em, so when that hog leg goes off, you're gonna know somethin' happened.

Truthfully, you really ought to see if'n you can shoot a few pistolas of different types and styles before you go ta spendin' hard earned cash. My Vaquero has the standard grip frame and I can handle the heavy loads with it pretty good, but I'll tell ya, I don't think I'd want to shoot one o' them birdshead griped guns with the heavy loads.

Try the standard and bisley grip frames and see what you think of 'em before you go spendin' money on another gun that might not be what you want, ok?

Take care amigo,
~Rat

DirtyHarry · « **Reply #24 on:** February 27, 2004, 05:25:01 PM »

Just to augment my previous post, I do agree that ruger makes strong guns, and given a choice between the ruger and the beretta, I would go with the ruger without hesitation

dread · « **Reply #25 on:** March 09, 2004, 01:10:42 PM »

I vote for the Ruger too. My Blackhawk fits me just right. The only thing I did for it was to install different grips that are larger and made of what seems like a "rubber compound". It's a .357 magnum but I wouldn't hesitate to get it in any caliber that Ruger offers. Just my 2 cents.

Chris B. · « **Reply #26 on:** March 09, 2004, 05:26:16 PM »

Thanks once again! I will be getting a Ruger in the near future for hot loads. I have been reading that even the mighty Rugers will wear out and strech out fireing a lot of hot loads faster then regular loads. I would probibly only shoot hot loads once in a blue moon and have them in the gun in the woods for use on a bear if need be. In that case I would hope to have a high powered rifel though! Thanks again for the "education"! I'll keep reading and learning and go from there! :grin:

P.S. The more I play with the Stampede the more I like her! Very nice gun by any standered! :-D