Republican or Democrat?

[nw_hunter]

Most people when asked that question will say......I'm  Liberal or I'm  Conservative.
Today, that means squat! I know republicans who are both, and the same with some of my Democrat friends.
Distancing myself from party politics was hard  for me to do, but the right thing  IMO!

I think political pundit Devvy Kidd is right on in this statement

"Contrary to the conventional wisdom on the political right, Barack Obama was not the inventor of wealth redistribution. National elections are not about representative government or officials responding to the will of the American people. They are about the allocation of power between the two political establishments. The politicians then parlay that power into influence and affluence by redistributing the wealth generated by ordinary hard-working Americans to their political supporters.

"The objective of both the Republican and Democratic establishments is the same; to preserve the political status quo, racketeering masquerading as government. Their business models depend on exclusivity to power, spawned by money, sustained by political expediency and crony capitalism and maintained by crushing any spontaneous outbreaks of democracy among U.S. citizens.

"Both parties have forgotten that the efficiency and effectiveness of government are dependent upon the trustworthiness of elected officials as representatives and executors of the views and desires of the American people. For that reason, the Republican and Democratic Parties are on the path to political extinction. We should hasten their journey."

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd626.htm

"AMEN Devvy"

[ironglow]

Virtually all Democrats and most Republicans have forgotten their duties to those who sent them there.  They are self-serving shoats..

[45-70.gov]

republicans want smaller less intrusive  government...
...until you mention drus, religion, marriage, abortion,  etc,etc


democrats just want your money to create dependent voters for themselves

[SHOOTALL]

I think for many years most voters did not watch what was going on in govt. and the politicians kept getting bolder and no one cared until the voters realized that they could not produce enough to pay off the debt. Now there are enough free loaders to offset the concretive voters . But the fact is still we cannot produce enough to pay the debt.

[powderman]

Even though I mostly voted for reps up until Obama was elected I was registered as a democrat. I changed when imam Obama infected the whitehouse, I was ashamed  of being a democrat. I decided that when I died that I didn't want God to ask me why I supported the party of death and depravity.
IF the Tea Party ever becomes a real party I will register with them. POWDERMAN. 

[sethk]

I'm all for hastening that journey. Here are some potentially helpful mechanisms from one of my favorite youtubers: 


The Trouble with the Electoral College

The Problems with First Past the Post Voting Explained

Gerrymandering Explained

The Alternative Vote Explained

Mixed-Member Proportional Representation Explained

[dukkillr]

republicans want smaller less intrusive  government...
...until you mention drus, religion, marriage, abortion,  etc,etc


democrats just want your money to create dependent voters for themselves

Bingo!

[Doublebass73]

republicans want smaller less intrusive  government...
...until you mention drus, religion, marriage, abortion,  etc,etc


democrats just want your money to create dependent voters for themselves

Bingo!

Yeah, that sums it up nicely.

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[45-70.gov]

IF the Tea Party ever becomes a real party I will register with them. POWDERMAN. 

the tea party  is trying to flip the republican party...
rather than waste time with  looney democrats
or trying to defeat BOTH  ESTABLISHED parties..[3rd parties are spoilers]


get registered republican   and help prevent them from making bad choices

[nw_hunter]

IF the Tea Party ever becomes a real party I will register with them. POWDERMAN. 

the tea party  is trying to flip the republican party...
rather than waste time with  looney democrats
or trying to defeat BOTH  ESTABLISHED parties..[3rd parties are spoilers]


get registered republican   and help prevent them from making bad choices

The Republican party began life as a third party   Disgruntled Whigs started the Republican party movement. Their champion being old Abe Lincoln.We don't need the Republican or Democrat parties today. Neither represent the average American worker "aka" voters.


If we are ever to resemble the free nation we once were, we need them to go away.

[magooch]

Guys, I don't think it is complicated, or some kind of conspiracy.  Politicians of both parties are pandering to who they think their voters are.  When they are first elected, they might be guided by certain principles, but it soon becomes clear that pandering trumps principles if the goal is to remain in office. 


The goal of preserving, or improving the country is lost and being reelected becomes the goal.  There are exceptions and we are suffering under one of those right now.

[ironglow]

  Many of the former Republicans have "caught on" to the Republican's scam, while it seems few Democrats have caught on the the scam the Democrats are running.
  Perhaps the Obamacare, Benghazi, Fast & furious, IRS and NSA catastrophies may reach some, but thus far most seem content to keep sipping the koolaid.  Kudos to those few who have awakened.

  The conservatives still don't have it together, we have Conservatives and we have Libertarians.  The only difference I see, can be summed up in one sentence, as follows:

     "Conservatives are basically Libertarians ..who have a moral compass."

[dukkillr]

     "Conservatives are basically Libertarians ..who have a moral compass."

Wow.  So unbearably arrogant.  Wow.

Try this one, "Conservatives are basically Libertarians ... who want to appoint themselves the moral compass for others."

Please understand that you have absolutely no idea how moral any given Libertarian is just because they don't want to FORCE their moral compass on OTHERS.

[Doublebass73]

There is nothing "Conservative" about forcing others to believe in the same morality that you do.

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[sethk]

Guys, I don't think it is complicated, or some kind of conspiracy.  Politicians of both parties are pandering to who they think their voters are.  When they are first elected, they might be guided by certain principles, but it soon becomes clear that pandering trumps principles if the goal is to remain in office. 


The goal of preserving, or improving the country is lost and being reelected becomes the goal.  There are exceptions and we are suffering under one of those right now.

+1

[thxmrgarand]

I want to respectfully add that there are some wrong-headed ideas here.  Standing on the sidelines is entirely unproductive in a democracy.  With just a little persistence, a little hard work, and if you like, a little money one person or a few people can pretty much ensure that the local branch of one of the two political parties listens to them and adopts their idea in one form or another.  That is because the percentage of people who really show up and participate in democracy is very small.  And since we have a two party system, and since my issue is fighting gun control, I find it much easier to work for and influence Republican campaigns than I would Democrat campaigns.  I should add that it's true that all politics are local politics.


Sure, there are many issues where I don't see eye to eye with any particular campaign, and I am not aligned with general Republican platforms on many issues.  But starting my own party would not help me fight gun control at all.  Moreover, trying to have the party adopt my ideas on several issues instead of just one issue would dilute any good that might come from my work on campaigns.


Most guys I hunt with express some of the same ideas I have on some social issues but arguing those issues with their wives and their preachers would get them nowhere.  Pragmatically, if the Republicans continue to honestly push back against gun control, including appointing judges who support the Constitution, then I am not going to argue with them very much about the issues that are not so important to me but are hot-button issues for other Republicans.   Given the close vote of the Heller decision the appointment of judges is very important to my issue.


So in a two-party system we have just a few choices it seems to me, and one of them is to be involved.  If you are involved then you will see that people who believe in the 2nd Amendment tend to overwhelmingly be Republican.

[Bob Riebe]

     "Conservatives are basically Libertarians ..who have a moral compass."

Wow.  So unbearably arrogant.  Wow.

Try this one, "Conservatives are basically Libertarians ... who want to appoint themselves the moral compass for others."

Please understand that you have absolutely no idea how moral any given Libertarian is just because they don't want to FORCE their moral compass on OTHERS.

Pot calling kettle black, brilliant!

[ironglow]

"They want to FORCE their moral compass on others" 
       Now Ducky, you know very well, nobody this side of a dictator can FORCE their moral compass on others.  We can advocate for, speak in favor of and vote for such legislation when it is presented... but those options are open to EVERYBODY on any subject !
  You seem to be convinced somehow that I can FORCE my convictions on somebody here or anywhere else. 
   
I suppose in the spirit of "fair play" I should say those who favor legalization of pot for instance are FORCING their ideas upon me..  Hah..fat chance ! I would rather think that they are trying to CONVINCE me of their convictions, just as I am doing with my convictions..nothing strange there!
 
    If you are truly convinced that I can FORCE my ideas upon others...please explain exactly HOW I can do this..  I await your answer with anticipation.

[45-70.gov]

 

  The conservatives still don't have it together, we have Conservatives and we have Libertarians.  The only difference I see, can be summed up in one sentence, as follows:

     "Conservatives are basically Libertarians ..who have a moral compass."

and there you have the spit that gave us the democrat and obumer
3 tenths to the  conservatives
3 tenths to the  libertarians
4 tenths to  the liberal/democrats


HITLER was elected with 17% of the vote because there were 3 parties and voter apathy


the NEXT PRESIDENT or any major elexted official
WILL be democrap or republican...nothing you can do about it
you can TRY to influence the primaries like the TEA party does
or you can remain irrelevant

[nw_hunter]

See what I mean? It's hard to break the party mentality! The Whigs didn't believe it could happen and low and behold the Republican party was born.

if you vote Republican you hate the small guy! If you vote Democrat, you hate the rich. If you vote for some other, your just sitting on the sideline. (Not getting involved.) Your kind helped the other party get the vote. Funny thing!........Getting really involved is what made me realize, I could never again vote for the criminals the two parties offer us. I guess I had an awakening! Something you just have to experience.

Fear of the unknown is scary to most! I guess the herd mentality reduces fear........ All the way to the slaughter house.

[ironglow]

  Not exactly NW;

  We could all unite behind the various Tea Parties and still win elections.. but alas, some are still reluctant to accept the Tea Parties as our best chance to upset the Republicrats..  Perhaps if we were a bit less demanding upon every last point.
   As noted above, sure there are certain values I appreciate, but give me a solid, non-establishment conservative who can possibly win, as an alternative to any Democrat or Rino..and I will back them. 
  Suppose we all took that attitude

[Gary G]

I suppose that I would call myself Lockean in that I do believe in the natural rights of life, liberty and property. As Jefferson said, the only legitimate purpose of government would be to protect those rights. Of course this is not the design of either republicans or democrats. Even the original plank of the republican party states "for the common good". This explains the expropriation of ones property to supply some politically perceived need. In other words, socialism.
This situation will not be changed from the top down so voting is irrelevant. It will only be changed from the bottom up by the slow process of more people educating themselves. This is the beauty of the internet. This government will implode on itself via the laws of economics, and soon, just as the soviet union. Then, what will be next? Ron Paul, Tom Woods and other liberty minded individuals have a tremendous influence on college age people. That gives me hope for a brighter future.

[DDZ]

It will only be changed from the bottom up by the slow process of more people educating themselves.

Agreed, and right now government and the media are the ones doing the educating.

[ironglow]

Duk, Double base and others;

  I'm still waiting to hear how I am able to FORCE my opinions upon others !

  DB you are far left with far left ideas which you express freely here.  Does that mean you are FORCING those ideas on us?  Hardly; we can either accept or reject them..or pay no attention.

  I suggest my convictions are the same spirit but I espouse different views and I do it as passionately as you do.  I fail to see how that is any more FORCE than you exert.  I expect reception of my views should be the same.. that is only "fair play"

  I suspect we are seeing at work here, another instance at leftist control efforts.

  When a Liberal presents a strong point, it is free speech and should be given respect...  When a Christian makes a strong point, that is FORCE !

  Why are we treated differently ?  Let's hear a rational answer, please..

[gypsyman]

Our political system wasn't set up for career politicians. With maybe a couple exceptions, how many go back to a job they had before getting elected. Both party's have morphed into, lets see if I do this, it'll help get me re-elected the next time. Term limits on all state and federal politicians would be a good place to start. gypsyman

[dukkillr]

I suppose in the spirit of "fair play" I should say those who favor legalization of pot for instance are FORCING their ideas upon me..  Hah..fat chance ! I would rather think that they are trying to CONVINCE me of their convictions, just as I am doing with my convictions..nothing strange there!
 
    If you are truly convinced that I can FORCE my ideas upon others...please explain exactly HOW I can do this..  I await your answer with anticipation.

Funny example.  You see those who voted for legalization of Marijuana are voting for the freedom of choice to do or not do something.  It's the exact opposite of voting to make something illegal, which removes a choice.

So to be clear.  Suppose Marijuana was discovered yesterday.  States all over the country are making laws for the first time.  Some of those states are coming down on the side of freedom.  They are assuming that you are capable of deciding to smoke or not for yourself.  Some of those states are coming down on the side of making it illegal.  Those states are assuming that they know what is right for you, and they know that you can't be trusted to make that decision for yourself. 

See the difference?  It's not about what you like.  I hate smoke of all things, marijuana included.  I like my nice clean healthy lungs.  In my perfect world no one would smoke anything.  Except it isn't up to me to decided what other people believe, and I realize that many have a different idea of a perfect world than I do.  It's not about what you like, it's about what others decide they like...

[Doublebass73]

DB you are far left with far left ideas which you express freely here.  Does that mean you are FORCING those ideas on us?  Hardly; we can either accept or reject them..or pay no attention.

LOL the fact that you consider me far left with far left ideas only proves this point the Duk posted earlier:

Please understand that you have absolutely no idea how moral any given
Libertarian is just because they don't want to FORCE their moral compass on
OTHERS

I am the furthest thing from far left, I'm a Christian who prays to Jesus and an extreme fiscal conservative. I believe in the Constitution and think that it should never violated no matter how good the intentions may seem.
Since you claim to be a conservative who believes in the Constitution could you please cite the Article from the Constitution that authorizes the federal government to wage a "war" on "drugs"? I won't hold my breath on this one.......................

[ironglow]

  Yes, I can understand the freedom aspect, but there are all kinds of freedoms at stake involved in such a discussion.  I am concerned that with legalization and lower prices, the habit will spread.  It is proven that the stuff injures the brains of youthful users.  With the newer, stronger strains being developed each year the hazard will only increase. Surveys show that with some (even the US prez) playing down the dangers of the drug..teenagers are now more inclined to believe the stuff is innocuous. Check these studies:

  http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/28/health/time-teens-pot/   

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/18/drug-czar-upset-by-survey-finding-fewer-teens-see-marijuana-as-a-harmful-substance/

  Ultimately, I am still concerned for our young people and our country.  I would hope every adult American would be.  Then we come back to the aspect of freedom..including freedom from fear.  Should we not be concerned with the danger offered by stewed pot smokers driving?  We have laws against drunk driving for that reason:  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/marijuana-a-major-cause-of-accidents-what-study-says/

[guzzijohn]

Ironglow, let me change what you posted a bit and see if you still want to squash freedoms.


  Yes, I can understand the freedom aspect, but there are all kinds of freedoms at stake involved in such a discussion.  I am concerned that with legalization and lower prices of firearms, the habit will spread.  It is proven that the guns injures youthful users.  With the newer, stronger calibers being developed each year the hazard will only increase. Surveys show that with some (NRA) playing down the dangers of guns..teenagers are now more inclined to believe that guns are innocuous.


IG, no difference IMHO.
GuzziJohn

[ironglow]

Of course, the "freedom and marijuana" discussion has been just a distraction from the original question, perhaps an attempt to derail the question.
  So let's get back to the original question..which I now also ask of Guzzi.

  In what way am I or can I FORCE my convictions upon anyone else participating in this forum ?