30-30 or 357 Maximum

[Gohon]

Under 100 yards, I'd prefer the Max because bigger holes are better. Outside 100, the 30-30 every time.

Then why bother with the Maximum if limited to 100 yards when the Magnum will also easily take a deer at 100 yards fired from a rifle.  The Maximum when loaded properly will cleanly take deer at 200 yards with ease. 

[clearwater]

I even shoot round balls in it for small game and fun plinking, something that is not as practical with a 30-30. It is also cheaper to load for.

Sure  a round ball is practical. And cheaper in the 30-30. Just as cast bullets can be cheaper in the 30-30. Here is a link on one way to do it.
http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/rb30.htm


more ideas here


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?10754-Suggestion-for-30-30-single-round-ball-load

[petemi]

Under 100 yards, I'd prefer the Max because bigger holes are better. Outside 100, the 30-30 every time.

Then why bother with the Maximum if limited to 100 yards when the Magnum will also easily take a deer at 100 yards fired from a rifle.  The Maximum when loaded properly will cleanly take deer at 200 yards with ease.

I agree entirely.  Loaded properly the Maxi is a 200 yard deer rifle at the least.  That is what mine are sighted in for.  I would not hesitate to try it a tad longer knowing the trajectory of the load I shoot.  I'd rather put a .35 caliber bullet in a deer than a .30 at the same velocity.  If I recall correctly, Winchester factory 170 gr. runs 2190 fps.  My .358 180 gr. SSP does better than that.

I'm not rapping Da Tirty Tirty, I have two of them.  I'm just saying the Maxi is their equal or better.

Pete

[gcrank1]

Same thing as many have said about the 35 Remmy for years. The Max is easier to reload and performs well beyond what it looks like.
I wont fault anyone for having a self imposed limit under a cartridge's potential capability.

[Spanky]

A Max is not equal to or better than a 30-30... fact is it's not even close to it. Just for grins and giggles check out some facts and figures and compare the two. With every bullet weight up to and including 220gr the 30-30 easily out does the Max... by several hundred fps and several hundred ft/lbs of energy. 30 caliber bullets weighing the same as 35 caliber bullets have a much better bc and sd. If you don't believe me check for yourself.
The fact that someone would pass on a deer at 200 yds with a 30-30 but fire away with a Max is nothing short of silly. Do a direct comparison between a Max shooting a 180gr. bullet and a 30-30 shooting a 180gr. bullet at 200 yds. It's not even close.
Do the homework... learn the facts... if you can't find the info I'll post it for you.
Is it good? Yes     Is it as good or better? Absolutely not.



Spanky

[Badnews Bob]

I gotta disagree Spanky. Just because it shoots a little flatter and has more energy don't mean beans, That .35 will put the bullet in the right place, and in the right place that .35 will do more than that .30, Paper number be damned they don't tell the whole story.  Field results have proved that time and time again.

A 5.56 look really good on paper, But a 7.62x39  looks better when it counts.

[Spanky]

I gotta disagree Spanky. Just because it shoots a little flatter and has more energy don't mean beans, That .35 will put the bullet in the right place, and in the right place that .35 will do more than that .30, Paper number be damned they don't tell the whole story.  Field results have proved that time and time again.

A 5.56 look really good on paper, But a 7.62x39  looks better when it counts.

Please explain exactly what you mean by that statement. Are you saying the 30-30 isn't capable of putting a bullet where it needs to be? What do you mean by the 35 doing more than the 30? Is a deer going to be deader with a 35?
I've shot lots of deer with a 35 and lots of deer with a 30 and not one of them ever jumped up to tell me the 30 wasn't enough gun.

Let me ask you this Bob... if you think the 35 "will do more" than a 30 does that mean the 30-06 isn't up to the task? Are you willing to go on record as saying a Max will outperform the 30-06? After all it's just a 30 cal. right??



Spanky

[goalie]

A few things that, for me, mater:

1.  The issue that makes hitting at relatively long-range with "rainbow" trajectory calibers is range estimation, not the precision of the weapon.

2.  Because of #1, a LOT of practice at range-estimation (or a laser rangefinder) is needed to be ethical.

[Gohon]

Are you willing to go on record as saying a Max will outperform the 30-06? After all it's just a 30 cal. right??

That's not what he indicated at all.  This discussion is about the 30-30 and the 357 Maximum.  One being a 30 caliber and the other being a 35 caliber.  The 30-06 will absolutely out perform the 30-30 and both are 30 caliber so what’s the point.

Buffalo hunters of yesteryear didn't go out on the prairie with fast stepping 30 caliber rifles.  The used guns that shot slower, heavier, and larger bullets that penetrated better and did more damage.  The same principle applies to the 30-30 vs 357 maximum.   At 200 yards the 30-30 will hit with approximately 300 more fpe using the normal 170 grain bullet it was designed for.  However a lot of that energy will be used to get that 30 caliber bullet to expand to 35 caliber.  The maximum with the normal 200 grain bullet will enter already at 35 caliber and drive just as deep if not deeper because of it's weight advantage.

All of this is apples to oranges.  Which would you rather be broadsided with if given a choice.....a Volkswagen going 70 miles an hour or a Cadillac doing 50 miles an hour.

Out to 200 yards the 357 Maximum will kill just as well, if not better, as the 30-30.  Past that point the 30-30 steals the show hands down with these two loads.  The only reason I reamed by 357 magnum which was regulated to 80-100 yards to a maxi was to extend the range with a heavier bullet and the maximum does just that. 

Want some facts…..a 30-30 170 grain Winchester silver tip sighted in at 200 yards will have a rise of 4.2 inches,  A 200 grain LBT from the Maxi will have a rise of 5.90 inches.  That’s only 1.70 inches difference.  There goes that rainbow trajectory argument out the window.  That same 200 grain bullet from the maxi will hit with more energy than a 357 magnum at the muzzle of a revolver.  Want to tell me a a 357 magnum revolver shoved against the rib cage of a deer and fired won’t kill the deer on the spot?   If that isn’t enough, step the maxi load down to a 180 grain XTP and the difference is narrowed considerable.   Apples to oranges……..

[RPRNY]

Are you willing to go on record as saying a Max will outperform the 30-06? After all it's just a 30 cal. right??

That's not what he indicated at all.  This discussion is about the 30-30 and the 357 Maximum.  One being a 30 caliber and the other being a 35 caliber.  The 30-06 will absolutely out perform the 30-30 and both are 30 caliber so what’s the point.

Buffalo hunters ... used guns that shot slower, heavier, and larger bullets that penetrated better and did more damage.  The same principle applies to the 30-30 vs 357 maximum.   

The italics mark the subject of much disagreement. I myself lean towards the "no substitute for cubic inches" allegory of bigger holes are better. However, the suggestion that big and slow penetrate better and do more damage is problematic when one compares older large caliber black powder cartridges with modern smokeless cartridges. A 405 gr cast lead bullet from a 45-70 will, as we know, take down a buffalo if placed correctly. But the italicized statement above can be misinterpreted as suggesting that a 180 gr bullet from a 30-06 would not be as effective in doing so. This is incorrect and represents and apples and oranges comparison.

While we may differ about the effectiveness of the Max out to 200 given its trajectory vs the 30-30, for the purposes of argument let us just say that two shooters equally accomplished with each firearm and cartridge would each be equally likely inside 200 yards to place their shots effectively. In that case, the bigger hole is better.

Since I am not an accomplished estimator of range, rarely hunt in areas where even 100 yard shots are frequent, and would like to think that I would hold back from an uncertain 200 yard shot with iron sights, the argument is moot. At 100 - 150 yards, I would be more confident and comfortable with the 30-30. That seems a matter of individual choice rather than a comment on ballistics. Under 100 yards, I would be very happy with either.

[clearwater]

I gotta disagree Spanky. Just because it shoots a little flatter and has more energy don't mean beans, That .35 will put the bullet in the right place, and in the right place that .35 will do more than that .30, Paper number be damned they don't tell the whole story.  Field results have proved that time and time again.

A 5.56 look really good on paper, But a 7.62x39  looks better when it counts.

Rumor has it the Marines are going to 357 maxi over the current 30 caliber sniper rifle due to its inherent accuracy, deeper penetration and larger hole.


At 200 yards a handloaded 30-30 has half again as much energy as a hand loaded 357 max looking at the hornady data listed on the first page. At 300 yards it is approaching twice as much energy.


There is no substitute for cubic inches.

[clearwater]

Hornady just announced a new benchrest cartridge based on it's .357 cal ssp bullet. Nosler, taking a cue from Hornady, is developing a new long range hunting bullet without all that fancy but ineffective high ballistic coefficient ogive of its former offerings such as the Ballistic Tip and will be concentrating on pencil point jacketed and heavy large meplat lead offerings.


Next up Remington and the 45/70 modular AR 15 rifle.


I here tell in later life Karamojo Bell switched from a 7x57 mauser with solid jacketed bullets to a .357 cal rifle with soft points due to better penetration on elephant skulls.

[quickdtoo]

For all practical intents and purposes there is no factory Maxi ammo, Grizzly lists it, but no one has it, even them, so there's no reason to compare factory 30-30 ammo to handloaded Maxi ammo, another apples and oranges comparison. Since this is a Handi forum discussing handloaded single shots, using spitzer bullets in both applications clearly shows the 30-30 to be superior to the Maxi in trajectory and energy impact on target, no ifs, ands or buts. Anyone that considers the 357 maxi to be a  practical 300yd round, should then consider the 30-30 as a 400yd round as has been mentioned before.

No offense meant to you Maxi lovers, but I have no use for it, I had my first Maxi rechambered to 35 Remington and shoot Super 35 Rem loads in it, 180gr SSP or 180gr Speer FP @ 2450fps, sold my second Maxi to someone that had a need for it for their Indiana hunting season IIRC, it just has no place for hunting here for me, I'd much rather use either my 30-30 or 30-30AI for hunting here. 

Tim

[clearwater]

Does anybody shoot both the 30-30 and 357 maximum. Is there really that much of a difference between the two. Seems like the 357 maximum is more versatile.

My shorty Maxi.

[Badnews Bob]

Spanky you said the max absolutely isn't as good at 200 as the.30-30, That is not true.    My point was at 200 yards or less the .30-30 has no advantage over the max, Dead is dead. but I have shot deer with rounds ranging from .223 to the .45-70, The big bores almost always drop the deer faster and with less meat damage than the smaller faster rounds.

I never implied in any way that a .30 cal couldn't do the job, I said the .30 has no advantage at 200 yards. Over 200 things change rather quickly, The fat bullet starts falling out of the sky.

[Spanky]

I will wholeheartedly agree with the smaller faster rounds doing more meat damage. I shot a doe with my 22 hornet and lost the entire offside shoulder due to bone fragments and bloodshot meat. It wasn't pretty to say the least.



Spanky

[Gohon]

Starting to get a little confused here..........didn't know we were talking about spitzer bullets in both rifles, guess I missed that part.  Didn't see where the maxi was promoted as a 300 yard rifle either and the constant throwing of the 30-06 into the mix seems odd at best.  As for trajectory, there is less than two inches in trajectory between the two when zeroed at 200 yards and this is with my loads with less than full potential of the maxi.  If a hunter can't compensate for that little difference then he needs more time at the bench.  I own and shoot both caliber’s and always use wide flat nosed bullets.  Have take game with both caliber’s and for what ever reason, the maxi has always smacked harder and put the game down faster at the distances I shoot.  I think people get to involved with paper ballistics and hearsay instead of actual field performance of not just the maxi/30-30 but all caliber’s.

Paper ballistics is just a tool to get one on track but without actual field testing on game, you will never know if that load will perform properly.  Most all have taken a deer or two with a 30-30 but how many of you have taken two or more with the 357 maxi?  My guess would be very, very few.

[SHOOTALL]

I shot both rounds in Contenders with 14 inch barrels. Both can be accurate to 200 meters in a handgun. Both would knock over 50 + lb targets . 30-30 brass does not hold up as well when max loads are used but it is easier to come by. I loaded bullets for 35 cal rifles and got good results with pointed bullets . I also loaded 30-30 bullets base out for a nice boat tail wad cutter . I liked both but shot the 30-30 more it seemed to have less recoil and more velocity both which aided accuracy IMHO.

[quickdtoo]

Big difference between shooting a gong and a deer. The gong will just hang around patiently while you lob rounds downrange at it until you figure out the 19 inches of holdover... the deer won't.

Let's be realistic here...

Numbers don't lie... faster, flatter and more versatile. The 30-30 wins every time.



Spanky

I am being very realistic. I would shoot a deer at 300 yards with a Max.

Have I? No, And I prolly won't, Most of my hunting is done at much shorter ranges but I know I can. AT anything inside of 250 you really don't have to change your hold all that much The kill zone on a deer is 8" or so, That is a big target.

A .30-30 in truth isn't a very good choice for 300 yards either. 6 inches of hold over at 300 isn't much of a difference to me.

If I know I will have a good chance at a shot over 200 I will take  my .280 or .308 maybe even the .45-70
 
I have shot white tails with a .30-30 and a .357 max,  The max destroys less meat and puts a deer on the ground faster almost every time as compared to the .30 cal. 

A small dia bullet going fast  =  blood shot meat.  Not good.

A heavy fat bullet going slow = Less blood shot meat every time........I like that.

[MAN - GA]

Been following this thread for a few days and it is now on the 3rd page so I will offer my $0.02 worth.  I think both cartridges have their place and can perform flawlessly with proper bullet placement by the shooter.  It is up to the shooter to know his cartridge and gun capability with respect to range estimation and comply completely for an ethical kill.  I believe that everyone has shot a deer with the largest magnum to the smallest caliber legal (per state law) out there and had deer drop dead or run off and die.  Deer are hardy animals with a will to survive and my point is that shot placement is paramount.  Yes we can justify ballistics via paper or computers all day long, but at the end of the day it is the shooters call if the trigger is pulled.  My vote is pick either and be happy with it and practice till you know the gun like tying your shoes and you can shoot it in your sleep.  Both cartridges have their place and advantage and are more than capable & comparable.  Pick one and be happy with it.

[jeepmann1948]

My answer is :
 Read and understand my signature line
George

[petemi]

MAN-GA,  I didn't want to do a quote and fill the page, but I agree entirely with you.  I would guess a large majority of people on this site go to a range to shoot.  That is a limiting factor.  Weather permitting, we can walk out on the back deck and shoot 25 - 300 yards anytime we feel like it.  There's also a permanent bench for the chrony.  As I said before, every load from .17 to .50+, including stuff like the.17, .204, .22-250 and .25-06 has a rainbow, however flat or tall.  There's several factors involved with hitting a small target at long distance with any rifle or caliber.  In a hunting situation, the major question is, "If I do my job and put the bullet where I want it, will it have enough energy and expansion to kill?"  The second and most important, at any range from 25 to 400+ yards is can I keep it in 3 - 5 inches.  The third, and most Ignored, is Will the bullet I'm shooting do the job on the animal at the velocity and distance I'm shooting.?

There's lots more to it.  I could go on.  Bullet and load selection for the game and range expected, etc. etc.  The bottom line is you really have to shoot and learn them at any possible anticipated range,  You can't, at least not here, sight in at 100 yards and be done.  You're shot can come up as far as 400 yards away.  Ya gotta burn some powder to learn them.

Pete