Author Topic: 30-30 RP Brass issues  (Read 1041 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nhecht25

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 47
30-30 RP Brass issues
« on: February 18, 2014, 10:41:32 AM »
Hey Everyone,

I've noticed that some of my .30-30 brass has neck tension that is way too loose.  Basically, some of the inside diameters were so big I could slip the .308 pill in with no force whatsoever after resizing.  I had my doubts that it was a die problem because I tried several different dies with the same results and not all brass had this problem.  All of the brass is once fired so there really shouldn't be a problem with the necks stretching.  I also measured the projectiles and they all had very tight tolerances right at .308.  I narrowed it down to RP brass so I pulled them all aside and ran them through the FL die.  I then attempted to put the same projectile in each case mouth.  I wound up with approximately 15 cases where the neck tension was too loose.  Upon inspection of all the headstamps, I determined that all of my RP brass that was stamped R-P (with a dash between) was too loose and all RP brass stamped R·P (with a dot between) was good. 

In this image, you can clearly see the difference in the headstamps between the two brass.  After FL resizing, the one on the left had an inside neck diameter of .307 and the one on the right was .310.  The thickness of the brass at the neck was .0110 for the one on the left and .0065 for the one on the right.  Obviously the brass is much thinner for the dashed headstamp. 


So, I'm just curious if anyone has seen this before.  I'm not really bothered by it because I have plenty of good brass but I'm sure there's probably someone else out there scratching his or her head wondering what's going on.  Any ideas?


Thanks!

Offline Larry L

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 780
Re: 30-30 RP Brass issues
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2014, 11:40:00 AM »
I'm going to speculate here but Remington has been for several years now having ammo and brass components made in Mexico to help with the shortages. That might be the difference in that the brass is an import. They were also buying loaded ammo from a 3rd world eastern country but I don't remember which one. Some of their shotshells are made by Rio out of Europe and look copper colored rather than brass.

Offline Ranger99

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9581
Re: 30-30 RP Brass issues
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2014, 12:35:10 PM »
i've never had any problems with
what i have, that said, all my
rem brass is older. some of what i use
 is headstamped rem-umc
from older factory ammo. the only
30/30 brass problems i've ever had
was some federal that split necks
after 1-2 firings. that has also been
a few years back.
18 MINUTES.  . . . . . .

Offline Dand

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2974
Re: 30-30 RP Brass issues
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2014, 04:31:52 PM »
 hmm know anybody with a micrometer capable of measuring case neck wall thickness? Ball micrometer? Compare.


Also since 30-30 is usually crimped maybe it really won't be an issue for you?


I use a Lee Factory crimp and that could work really well in this situation.


But it is strange, and would make me concerned - I'd probably designate them for practice rounds and watch closely.


I have a smaller diameter expander ball in my size die - a Hornady ball in RCBS die to keep the necks tighter.


I hope it isn't a problem of the brass hardness.


good luck - frustrating with component issues these days.
NRA Life

liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline Luckyducker

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 645
Re: 30-30 RP Brass issues
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2014, 02:43:14 AM »
I have loaded and used many different head stamped brass in the 30/30 Contender (Fed, Win, R-P, R.P, Hornady, etc.) and they all load and shoot indenticle.  I checked some of the RperiodP rounds I have loaded and the bullets are tight in the necks with no crimp added.  I dunno......   Maybe it was a bad lot of brass the loose necked ones came from.

Offline nhecht25

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: 30-30 RP Brass issues
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2014, 07:27:45 AM »
Thanks for the replies.  I also wondered if it was just a bad lot for this set of brass but the brass is pretty thin compared to everything else I have.  Seems like it would have to be pretty far out of spec to be this bad.  If it was that out of spec it makes me wonder about other quality control issues they have. 


I don't crimp my 30/30 brass because I only shoot it out of an encore so there's no need as long as I have good neck tension.  I suppose a crimp die may work but since I've only got about 15 pieces it doesn't seem worth the expense. 


I forgot to mension in my original post that I took the decapping/expander pin out of the die and ran the brass through again then measured.  No change in neck size at all which tells you how thin the brass is. 


It would be a shame if companies were going out of country to get additional manufacturing capacity and sacrificing quality to do this.  Today it was a thin neck that went without notice but tomorrow it could be a double charge.  I saw on either Midway's or Midsouths website the other day that there is currently a recall on some Winchester .22lr ammo that is suspected of having a double charge.  I wouldn't feel safe firing a double charged .22lr let alone a double charged 30/30.  When I reload, at least I know what I've got and if I screw something up I have no one to blame but me.  Fortunately that hasn't happened yet.  :)

Offline sr sawyer

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (70)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 599
  • Gender: Male
Re: 30-30 RP Brass issues
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2014, 08:48:22 AM »
How many times has this brass been fired and trimmed.  The necks get thinner and move forward with each firing and that is why they have to be trimmed.

Ken
NRA Life Member

Offline bigvarmnt

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (56)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1641
  • Gender: Male
  • N. E. Indiana
Re: 30-30 RP Brass issues
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2014, 03:05:16 AM »
Try weighing them and compare with your other brands. I'd think they'd be lighter if that much thinner. Could be lighter anyway but I wonder if it's a lot.


What's the box look like if they were factory loaded and you still have it. Curious

Offline Siskiyou

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3417
  • Gender: Male
Re: 30-30 RP Brass issues
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2014, 04:43:50 AM »
Couple weeks ago I size and loaded 90 cases mostly R-P.  But I need to go back and check.  I was loading a 150-grain Gas Check cast by member Gun Runner.  There was no issue related to neck tension.  I did follow-up with a Lee Factory Crimp Die.  I will follow up on the head stamps later in the week when I am allowed to walk up and down stairs.

I am very gentle with 30-30 cases because of the thin case material.

I should note that I load a lot of 30-30 rounds.  Always a pleasure to shoot.

I have had a similar experience with some 300 Savage cases.  When I went to seat the first bullet I realized I may have skipped a step.  I had used a decapping die and tumbled the cases with an interruption.  I suffered a brain fade and failed to re-size the cases.  I primed 20 for test loads charged then and went to bullet seating.  I dumped the powder and started over. 

There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline nhecht25

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: 30-30 RP Brass issues
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2014, 08:27:34 AM »
All of these pieces of brass were once fired only and unfortunately I do not have the original box they came in.  I did weigh some of the cases and the ones with the loose neck weighed in at an average of 125 gr and the ones with no neck problems weighed in at an average of 126 gr.  So, not much of a difference but when we're talking about how thin the neck is this difference may be all that it takes. 


For kicks, I ran them into my 30-30 AI FL sizing die which I can use as a neck sizer only to see if it would tighten them up and there was no difference at all. 


I suppose I'll just hang on to them and try loading some gas checked lead projectiles when I get around to picking some up. 


Siskiyou:  I'd be interested to know if you notice any loose necks in the R-P cases you have the next time you load them. 

Offline Siskiyou

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3417
  • Gender: Male
Re: 30-30 RP Brass issues
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2014, 12:51:26 AM »
I have been on the injured list for a couple of weeks restricting my travel from the bedroom, to the living room, and to the bathroom. Cane in hand.  My wife is making sure that I follow doctor’s orders.  But while she was sleeping this morning I ventured down the stairs to the reloading bench.  A look at Remington headstamps showed I had REM-UC, R*P, and R-P.

A couple years back a hunting partner and I did some sorting in his shop.  I came up with a lot of 30-30 cases, just over a hundred and box or two of loaded 30-30.  Remington was the dominate manufacture followed by Winchester, Federal and a box of Wards cases.

I erred the other day.  I open an old box of .30 Winchester High Speed cases.  30-30 Winchester was a sub-title on the box.  I deprimed the cases and looked closer when a tab fell over the box.  There was a lose factory printed note in the box.  It stated that they did not recommend the cases be reloaded.   The headstamp on the cases are .30 Winchester.  I have save the cases but I will not reload them.

Back in the 1930’s before the big ranches broke up in this country there was one that ran about 20 miles long.  It might have had some breaks with other ownership.  I know I seen some of it break up when I was a kid because the elderly brothers and wives passed on.  Dad talked about a trip he and some of the ranch family members made on horseback going north to South.  He described the rifles carried on the horse on the trip.  One had a .30 Army in a Winchester 95 (30-40 Krag), another .30 Winchester (30-30), and Dad had a Winchester 94 Long Tom in 32-40.  When I was a kid I was confused because of the .30 Govt., 30 Army, .30 Winchester, and 30-30.

While having some short comings I think the 30-30 case is great.  It works well with a number of medium burning rate powders.  Its limited case capacity makes a pound of powder go a long ways.  And it is an accurate round.  I have two scopes for my 30-30 Marlin, one sighted in for Gun Runner’s 150-grain cast and the other for 150-grain jacketed 160-grain Hornady.  I have found my 30-30 Marlin with a slip on recoil pad a fine rifle to introduce young people and women to rifle shooting.  More than one has left a session wanting to go rifle shopping.

This morning I have some R-P cases setting in a block ready for processing.  These cases have not been deprimed or resized.  I took a Sierra 150-grain FP Pro Hunter bullet and checked the mouths of twenty cases.  It entered the mouth of one case.  I was surprised I expected it to enter the mouth of all the fired cases.  I think this is not the usual case.  I know my friend’s mother hunted with a Marlin Model 30 Glenfield back in the 1950-60’s period.  Did this rifle have a tight chamber?  I know it worked because we barrowed it for my wife when we were first married.  My mother grabbed on to my extra rifle because she was having major bear problems at her fire lookout.

In a second block on the bench I had some Federal cases (FC) that had been fired in my rifle.  The cases had been deprimed but not resized yet.  The Sierra bullet easily entered the mouth of each case.

My 30-30 cases come from a wide range of sources.  I buy some used, many are given to me by family and friends and every once and while I fire some factory ammunition.  As a matter of practice I only hunt with factory loaded 30-30 ammunition.  I use to take advantage of the sales.  When Hornady came out with the Hornady LEVERevolution ammunition I adopted that as my Go To deer load in the 30-30.  Before that it had been the 150-grain Remington C-L.

Back in the mid 1960’s I had a patrol in a high deer kill unit and talked to a lot of hunters.  Most tails of handloaded ammunition failures came from young hunters reloading for the 30-30.  Problems varied from failing to put powder in the case to failing to crimp the bullet in the case.  Many of these issues were from youthful hunters rushing to load ammunition in a short time frame before the season open.  The problem was not with the rifle or the ammunition the rifle was designed to fire.
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.