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Offline Graybeard

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GOING OLD SCHOOL
« on: September 24, 2020, 05:03:16 AM »
https://gunmagwarehouse.com/blog/going_old_school/

INSIGHTS   BY DANIEL SHAW    NOVEMBER 22, 2017



It isn’t just the wrinkles in your face, the watch on your wrist, or the clothes you wear that mark your age.  Sometimes, it’s the gun you carry.

You can learn from us old Yodas, younglings. (Yes, I speak Star Wars, Millennium Boy! In case you didn’t backtrack it, my generation watched the first one in theaters when it came out. It’s one reason we can appreciate “a more elegant weapon from a more civilized age.”)

Now, I’ll confess that I’m carrying a Glock 19 as I write this, but none of us can deny that older designs still work as they always did…we just have to understand why some people still carry them, and yes, that includes some of the Younglings, who made the choice to carry older styles through critical thinking and not just the momentum of old-fart-itude.

DA revolver, here S&W Model 19, in South Dakota. The old guns score as well as the new ones on this same 60-shot timed qual course…and sometimes better!

The Double Action (DA) Revolver

What? Only six shots? Maybe even only five?

Yes, but the DA revolver has benefits, too.

For those new to the gun – the people Jeff Cooper’s disciple Mark Moritz famously dubbed NDPs, or Non-Dedicated Personnel – the DA wheel gun makes a lot of good sense. No slide to struggle with. No worries about “having a round in the chamber,” and if you don’t think that’s A Thing, you haven’t been on the gun-related Internet much lately.  Super-easy to open and close the cylinder, to press a rod and eject the cartridges…in short, to see if it’s loaded or not.  Easy to clean. Not dependent on cartridge shape or power level to function. Get one in double action only format and you’ll never have to worry about lowering the hammer from a cocked position under stress (yes, that can get scary), or being accused of an indefensible negligent discharge due to hair trigger (yes, I’ve seen that too).

Sure, that long and relatively heavy trigger stroke takes some practice to learn to shoot. Nothing comes without a price.  But the rolling trigger press of a double action, once mastered, will teach you to distribute your trigger pressure and make you a better shot with your short-pull autoloader, no matter what the speed.  And you’ll discover something else: except for the finest of target grade semi-automatics, the revolver will be more accurate.  Take equal quality center-fire revolvers and autos from the same maker (Ruger, for example, or Smith & Wesson) and put ‘em in a machine rest or on a bench rest in skilled hands.  You’ll find the groups from the revolver will generally be smaller than those from the semiautomatic.

Deluxe traditional double actions like Wilson Combat Beretta 92 Compact, left, and SIG Legion P229, right, have revitalized serious interest in this type of auto pistol.

The Traditional Double Action Auto


In the late 1920s, Walther came up with auto pistols which fired the first shot with a long, heavy double action pull and cycled themselves to easy, short single action pulls thereafter, until they were empty or a press on the decocking lever returned them to double action mode.  The 1950s and ‘60s saw this design reborn in this country courtesy of Smith & Wesson, and for a very long time they were the paradigm of “police duty” semiautomatic pistols.  Today, a new generation of serious American pistoleros have rediscovered their utility. They appreciate the fact that after the first long pull, all subsequent shots have much sweeter trigger pulls than most current generation striker-fired pistols.  National and world championships won by such masterful shooters as Ben Stoeger (Beretta 92) and Ernest Langdon (Beretta 92 mostly, but also the equivalent SIGs) reinforce the lesson.

There is also that significant matter of safety, which is what sold TDA pistols to America’s cops and armed citizens in the first place. The long, heavy pull for the first shot (which is where most unintentional discharges occur) mitigates the problem even if it’s not always enough to cure it.  Moreover, most double action only autos have exposed hammers, which allow the shooter’s thumb to “ride the hammer” as the pistol is holstered. This can prevent the hammer from rising and falling if anything from a too-narrow holster safety strap to the adjustment cord on a jacket to the shooter’s own finger from interdicting the trigger and firing a shot when the pistol is going into the scabbard.  The current popularity of appendix carry for concealment, which points the gun muzzle at one’s private parts and femoral arteries, has helped the promote the resurgence of hammer-fired guns such as the typical TDA auto.

Flatness of 1911 makes it carry with great comfort IWB. This is Signature Model Ed Brown .45 in Mitch Rosen ARG holster.

The 1911

You read it correctly: it’s not a patent number, like “17” on a Glock – it’s the year of introduction.  Why do so many people still carry the 1911 pistol? Because John Browning, who designed it, was a freaking genius, that’s why!

I can’t think of a slimmer pistol at this caliber/power level. That’s important when you carry inside the waistband all day, every day for maximum concealment.  I started carrying a Colt 1911 .45 that way behind my right hip when I was twelve years old working part time in my gunfight-survivor father’s jewelry store, and to this day, when I holster a 1911 my body seems to purr “Ahhh…yes.”


The 1911’s mandatory cocked-and-locked carry gives you a safety net if the bad guy gets the gun away from you: case after case has shown the on-safe pistol to be a life-saver in that situation.  Tests show that people unfamiliar with the 1911 take about 17 or 18 seconds to figure out which widget to press to “turn on the gun,” creating a substantial margin of life-saving opportunity to rectify the situation.  Reliability? The 1911 .45 was historically the most reliable semiautomatic service pistol under battlefield conditions in its time, and today’s are the most reliable ever, since the good ones are engineered to feed hollow points.  The 9mm version of the 1911, considered unthinkable until 1950 and finally engineered to be reliable in the format at this point in the 21st Century, offers pleasingly light “kick” to the recoil-sensitive.

It is a uniform trigger pull first shot to last that sells so many people on modern striker-fired pistols. The 1911 has had that since, well, 1911, and by the nature of its design gives a cleaner and crisper trigger pull.  With single-stack magazine and a design that allows long trigger or short, the 1911 lends itself to adaptation to very short fingers or very long ones.

not much different from target on same course with new polymer frame Springfield XD-E, hammer fired with optional cocked and locked or TDA mode, shot in Washington state

Coping With The Cognitive Dissonance of It All


We old people with old-fashioned guns (and particularly, those of us who also use the “newfangled” guns) sometimes find ourselves wondering if we need a psychiatrist’s couch.

1973: I am carrying a cocked and locked Colt 1911 .45 as a uniform police duty pistol. I get called a “radical” and a “maverick” for not carrying an ordinary service revolver.

1990: I am giving a guest lecture for the Washington State Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors Association, and take my coat off when I get to the podium. A young cop in the front row points at the stainless Colt Government Model .45 auto in my holster and says in a loud stage whisper, “Look! An old 1911! Hasn’t this dinosaur ever heard of Glocks?”

2006: I am a sponsored shooter for Team EOTAC, where the sponsor wants us to win as many gun divisions as we can at major IDPA matches. We have world champ Robert Vogel, ace 1911 shooter Mark Redl, national Stock Service Pistol champ Tom Yost, and Super Dave Harrington on the team to shoot in the auto pistol divisions. Some old fart who remembers double action six-shooters is needed for the revolver events, and by default I become the Designated Dinosaur. At my range in Florida where the local sheriff’s department SWAT team trains, I show up with a Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum on my hip, and one BOSS (Buffed-Out SWAT Stud) points at my Ruger and asks loudly, “Where’s the powder horn?”  In about the same time frame, I’m teaching at a range up north where a police chief I know comes out, with his little boy in tow, to say “Hi.”  The little dude looks at my holster, points to the same GP100, and shouts to his dad, “Look! An old Cowboy Gun!”

Sigh.  I’ve gotten used to it.

“The ‘70s called—they want their gun and holster back!” However, author felt well-armed carrying S&W .357 Combat Magnum in Bianchi #3 Pistol Pocket.


Getting used to it is good, and I’ll tell you why. I try to change guns every training tour, because my students all come in with different firearms, and they deserve an instructor who knows how to run more than one type of handgun.  For the month of August, 2017, realizing I hadn’t taught with a double action revolver in a while, I made my teaching gun the Smith & Wesson Model 19 revolver, which I carried with 125 grain .357 Magnum semi-jacketed hollow points. It was the gun its progenitor, my mentor Bill Jordan, called “The answer to a peace officer’s dream” when it came out in the mid-1950s, and the load was the one that when Indianapolis Police adopted it in the 1970s delivered ten one-shot stops in the first ten shootings with it, three with arm and leg hits. I carried it in a period-correct Bianchi #3 Pistol Pocket, an all-leather inside the waistband holster that I convinced Bianchi designer Richard “Red” Nichols to make with a thumb-break safety strap after I completed my beta-testing of a prototype in the late 1970s.

My significant other, a state champion shooter and a Princess of Polymer Pistols, was with me on that August 2017 training tour.  One night at our hotel she glanced down at my old .357 Combat Magnum in its old Bianchi holster and said, in her sweet and lovable way, “Honey, the 1970s called. They want their gun and their holster back.”

“They can’t have ‘em back,” I answered.  “Because I’m still usin’ ‘em.”

“Because they still work.”


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline Dee

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Re: GOING OLD SCHOOL
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2020, 07:09:22 AM »
Ahhhhhh, Ayoob. The pistolero that never fought.

Everything he has ever taught was, and has been, gleaned from someone else's experience in combat. Ayoob remains untested to this day.

But I will say; the truth he sometimes speaks, while someone elses, is still the truth.

Daniel Shaw however might have somethin to offer.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Argent 88

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Re: GOING OLD SCHOOL
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2020, 07:41:04 AM »
The Beretta 92 for me. Sure I like my Kmber 1911, but with arthritis in my right hand I can operate the 92 much better. And the CZ 75.

Offline The Old Man

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Re: GOING OLD SCHOOL
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2020, 11:19:25 AM »
Practice makes perfect, and I'll take well practiced muscle memory using a very familiar hand gun, be it revolver or 1911, over an experience from 40+ years ago any day.

Those guys have some pretty nice groupings on those targets, many of which are rapid fire....YOU want to be the one breaking into any of those residences in the middle of the day or night?  :o
Youthful enthusiasm is replaced by old age and treachery!

Offline Dee

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Re: GOING OLD SCHOOL
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2020, 12:28:42 PM »
Of course not.
And anybody that lethal on paper, must be a holy terror in a real gun fight.
And agreed. Muscle memory is not only the foundation of any good pistolero, but essential for a good golf swing.

As for breaking into someones house? Why would any law abiding citizen do that, unless it was on fire and they were trying to save them?

But then again, breaking into an 80 year old womans' house who has a shotgun, and used to quail hunt with her father 65 years ago, well that doesn't sound all that smart either.

And of course, a 40 year old real world experience, has no real value either.
It's all about theory. 8)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Land_Owner

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Re: GOING OLD SCHOOL
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2020, 11:25:34 PM »
As for breaking into someones house? Why would any law abiding citizen do that, unless it was on fire and they were trying to save them?

But then again, breaking into an 80 year old womans' house who has a shotgun, and used to quail hunt with her father 65 years ago, well that doesn't sound all that smart either.

OK.  You lost me.  Why would the 80 y.o. woman, whose house is on fire that you are trying to save by breaking into, want to use her shotgun against you?

I am a retired home defender and NO LEO.  I "train" for the joy of shooting, not as if my life depended on every shot - as an LEO should.  I saw a video that awakened me to "The One Hole Drill".  Start at 3 yds. from your target.  Aim, squeeze the trigger, be "surprised" when the gun goes off.  Shoot one hole. 

Attempt to place EVERY following shot into that same one hole for the next nine shots.  Observe your results. 

Move back to 5 yds. and repeat; 7 yds. and repeat; 10 yds. repeat; 15 yds. repeat; 25 yds. repeat.  When you can hold every shot within a 3" circle (iirc) at 25 yds. you have built serious muscle memory and your trigger squeeze and hold is practically flawless. 

Not unlikely, there many-many more hold techniques with which I am unfamiliar (Youtube is good for something).  I do like "The One Hole Drill".  I am inspired to go to the range to practice (motivation inducing) and in that, my own shooting skill should improve.

Offline Dee

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Re: GOING OLD SCHOOL
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2020, 03:02:56 AM »
As for breaking into someones house? Why would any law abiding citizen do that, unless it was on fire and they were trying to save them?

But then again, breaking into an 80 year old womans' house who has a shotgun, and used to quail hunt with her father 65 years ago, well that doesn't sound all that smart either.

OK.  You lost me.  Why would the 80 y.o. woman, whose house is on fire that you are trying to save by breaking into, want to use her shotgun against you?


LOL! Richard you put two issues together that were seperate.

After I retired I've continued to shoot, but not near the volume of the 20 years as an instructor.
Over the years I trained some officers that turned into remarkable shots, and some not so much.
Whether handgun, shotgun, or rifle, I trained all three combined with tactics, and repetition is the key.

If you personally have a training system you enjoy, you'll shoot more.

Personally, I shoot to retain my muscles memory, the tactical issues for me are already there from my obvious past career.

The real issue is, being a good shot is great, but can they, will they?
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline oldandslow

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Re: GOING OLD SCHOOL
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2020, 07:35:24 AM »
Having to pay for you ammo now, huh?  ;D

I still shoot quite a bit and still retain the muscle memory even if my muscles twitch and quiver now. I double my primidone dose at my neurologist's suggestion when I go shooting and it does wonders for the shakes. Having absolutely no gunfighting experience and wanting just that amount I still wonder what would happen if faced with one. I have always been pretty calm in stressful situations but there is always that doubt when it's life or death. I'm not the least interested in finding out but I do find a lot of the comments from keyboard commandos amusing. I doubt anyone has any idea how they will react unless they have been there and done it. Ayoob ain't done it from what I have read about him.

The only ones I have ever instructed are family members and I taught them what very little I know and let them work things out with advise if they asked for it. My daughter, son-in-law, and their son just recently got their CC permits and they were the top shooters in their respective classes.

Offline Dee

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Re: GOING OLD SCHOOL
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2020, 08:36:45 AM »
Having to pay for you ammo now, huh?  ;D

I still shoot quite a bit and still retain the muscle memory even if my muscles twitch and quiver now. I double my primidone dose at my neurologist's suggestion when I go shooting and it does wonders for the shakes. Having absolutely no gunfighting experience and wanting just that amount I still wonder what would happen if faced with one. I have always been pretty calm in stressful situations but there is always that doubt when it's life or death. I'm not the least interested in finding out but I do find a lot of the comments from keyboard commandos amusing. I doubt anyone has any idea how they will react unless they have been there and done it. Ayoob ain't done it from what I have read about him.

The only ones I have ever instructed are family members and I taught them what very little I know and let them work things out with advise if they asked for it. My daughter, son-in-law, and their son just recently got their CC permits and they were the top shooters in their respective classes.

LOL, yeah I've shot a 1,000 rounds a day many times over the years when training SWAT, and practicing drills. After I retired I bought a 700 round an hour Dillon press, but old age, and old injuries have slowed me down.

And your right, nobody knows what their gonna do till its time to do it, regardless of what they claim they'd do.

As for guys like Ayoob, he's a gun rag writer that never committed past reserve, and he makes his living off other folks real time experiences.

Hes like a marriage counselor that's never been married.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett