For Pastorp, Deacon or other preachers..

[ironglows]

  I have been called upon to do a graveside service for a local lady.  I know her dad very well as a saved Christian, but I am not sure of her salvation testimony. 
  I do know she had an alcohol problem and though once married, was living with her dad for several years.
  Question is the salvation situation... doing eulogies for the saved is easy...but how do you guys handle the burial where the salvation status is unknown.

   I have done such burials before, but would like your input, since I want to comfort, without making false promises.

[Dee]

I'm not a preacher, but how about a little "GODLY COMMON SENSE"?
Salvation is a personal relationship between God, and the person.
NOBODY BUT GOD, knows whether someone is actually saved.

Why would "SPECULATION" at "ANY DECEASED" family member come up in their funeral service?

Funerals are for the living.
EVEN THE MENTION of someone being POSSIBLY lost at their funeral service would be in extremely poor taste, and extremely cruel to the FAMILY.

That woman could have been as saved as anybody in your church, including you and your preacher.

We judge sin, not the sinner!

[littlecanoe]

If it is an issue if conscience on your part, her faith being unknown, I’d suggest not performing the service. While it’s an honor to be asked you shouldn’t violate your conscience by performing the service.

[Lloyd Smale]

it is not your place to judge him or anyone. Jesus was all about love and forgiveness. He forgave the men nailed to the cross next to him. You dont know if he made peace with God before he died. His family cant even be sure. Only he knows that. NONE OF US ARE WITHOUT SIN and ALL of us could be judged by some other MAN to be not worthy of heaven.

[ironglows]

I'm not a preacher, but how about a little "GODLY COMMON SENSE"?
Salvation is a personal relationship between God, and the person.
NOBODY BUT GOD, knows whether someone is actually saved.
  For sure Dee, and I agree.
 

Why would "SPECULATION" at "ANY DECEASED" family member come up in their funeral service?
 

Funerals are for the living.
EVEN THE MENTION of someone being POSSIBLY lost at their funeral service would be in extremely poor taste, and extremely cruel to the FAMILY.
  No question..never to be mentioned.
 
That woman could have been as saved as anybody in your church, including you and your preacher.   ABSOLUTELY!

  Reasonable surety of a person's salvation, allows the eulogist more latitude in the scripture used. It would be pointless to go through the promises of heaven, if for instance, the person were known to be an atheist !

We judge sin, not the sinner!

  No 'judging' here, whatever is.., is..  It is a  settled situation.

  The question revolves around my last sentence....   "but would like your input, since I want to comfort, without making false promises."

[Lloyd Smale]

your personal opinion should be a factor. Your job is to comfort not judge for God. If it bothers you its pretty simple,  dont do it.

[Dee]

I'm not a preacher, but how about a little "GODLY COMMON SENSE"?
Salvation is a personal relationship between God, and the person.
NOBODY BUT GOD, knows whether someone is actually saved.
  For sure Dee, and I agree.
 

Why would "SPECULATION" at "ANY DECEASED" family member come up in their funeral service?
 

Funerals are for the living.
EVEN THE MENTION of someone being POSSIBLY lost at their funeral service would be in extremely poor taste, and extremely cruel to the FAMILY.
  No question..never to be mentioned.
 
That woman could have been as saved as anybody in your church, including you and your preacher.   ABSOLUTELY!

  Reasonable surety of a person's salvation, allows the eulogist more latitude in the scripture used. It would be pointless to go through the promises of heaven, if for instance, the person were known to be an atheist !

We judge sin, not the sinner!

  No 'judging' here, whatever is.., is..  It is a  settled situation.

  The question revolves around my last sentence....   "but would like your input, since I want to comfort, without making false promises."

The only thing YOU can promise is to be the family's brother in Christ.

God promises Salvation thru Christ, but in performing a funeral YOUR job is to provide comfort thru scripture, not judgment on the deceased, because you don't know if she was, or wasn't saved.

When I have been asked to speak at funerals, I talked to the family, and asked appropriate questions about the deceased role in the  family, and used that information to form my comments.

I can't imagine any false promises you think you could possibly make concerning this womans present state of heaven or hell in her funeral service, because it impossible for you to know.


Do your job and perform the service on a positive note, and let God do His job.

Your question is alarmingly strange, and if your that confused on what you should say, and what's appropriate, you might step back, and let someone else do it.

[ironglows]

If it is an issue if conscience on your part, her faith being unknown, I’d suggest not performing the service. While it’s an honor to be asked you shouldn’t violate your conscience by performing the service.

  Again, not a conscience thing, but specific to my last sentence. I have presided over perhaps 30-40 American Legion burials, most of which I have no real idea as to their relationship to God.  However, when I know them well, and know they have a close relationship to God, I can give EXTRA assurance to their survivors.

  I don't shy away from the unsaved or unknown, but like to add the EXTRA assurance, but only when applicable.

  I have been utilized to speak at several private, Christian burials also, a much easier task ! This is a common thing among Bible centered preachers..and they can each tell you how much easier it is to  preach for a saved person's funeral. 

  I know some folks who likely know her much better than I do, so I will contact them in church this morning concerning their understanding of her status.
 
  I was only seeking some info from those who have oversee such services themselves, and how they handle it.  That is why, although I could have left it  open, I addressed the question more specifically to pastors.
  Not shunning others, but seeking out the experienced ones.

[Dee]

You add assurance?

I think not. God does that. Your actin way above your pay grade on this one.

I will step back out, and say you do need to talk to a preacher.

[littlecanoe]

Pastors that I have trusted and are sound in their understanding usually handle such cases by presenting the gospel. In sure that you do that. I remember one pastor in particular who emphasizes that the person, having died, is now committed to the most loving Being to have ever existed. No promises but a reassurance of some degree that God is merciful.

[ironglows]

Pastors that I have trusted and are sound in their understanding usually handle such cases by presenting the gospel. In sure that you do that. I remember one pastor in particular who emphasizes that the person, having died, is now committed to the most loving Being to have ever existed. No promises but a reassurance of some degree that God is merciful.

  Thanks LC, that is more what I was looking for. I guess there is a communication gap between some others here, and myself.  In no way did I say I was going to judge anyone since I am well aware of (Matthew 7:1-3)and that is exactly what He was talking about, not judging behavior or choices but judging a person's eventual destination.

  It would be fruitless speculation at this point, especially since what is done ..is done.  ..And now like all of us, she will face the true, and only judge.

  Perhaps I can rephrase... 
 A) There is no way I could or would have any conjecture as to her destination..got it so far, guys?

 B)  Most Bible inerrancy structured churches, believe and endorse (John 3:3), which speaks to the need of being "born again".

 C) I know that her dad and much of her family are of that conviction, and take comfort in it!  Her mother passed away about 4 years ago, and she attended our church for many years.

 D) Now, here is where 'the rubber meets the road', and there is nothing mysterious about it....

 E) Since most of her family are "born again", I would like to offer some scriptures meant to give them an extra measure of comfort.

[ironglows]

Pastors that I have trusted and are sound in their understanding usually handle such cases by presenting the gospel. In sure that you do that. I remember one pastor in particular who emphasizes that the person, having died, is now committed to the most loving Being to have ever existed. No promises but a reassurance of some degree that God is merciful.

  Thanks LC, that is more what I was looking for. I guess there is a communication gap between some others here, and myself.  In no way did I say I was going to judge anyone since I am well aware of (Matthew 7:1-3)and that is exactly what He was talking about, not judging behavior or choices.... but judging a person's eventual destination.

  It would be fruitless speculation at this point, especially since what is done ..is done.  ..And now like all of us, she will face the true, and only judge.

  Perhaps I can rephrase... 
 A) There is no way I could or would have any conjecture as to her destination..  Got it so far, guys?

 B)  Most Bible inerrancy structured churches, believe and endorse (John 3:3), which speaks to the need of being "born again".

 C) I know that her dad and much of her family are of that conviction, and they usetake comfort in it!  Her mother passed away about 4 years ago, and she attended our church for many years.
 D) Now, here is where 'the rubber meets the road', and there is nothing mysterious about it....

 E) Since most of her family are "born again", I would like to offer some scriptures meant to give them an extra measure of comfort.

  F) If in their minds, they are  confident that she was born again, I could place great emphasis on such passages as (John 14:2'3)  (Rev 21:3-5).

  G)  If for instance, she is an avowed atheist or they have doubts as to her salvation, dealing in depth with those verses may only bring upon them, some painful thoughts.

  See; it's not really difficult, but some of the pitfalls are perhaps not obvious, until one has preached in just such situations, and that is why I specifically spoke to Deacon or Pastorp, because I expect they have preached in just such situations

Pastors that I have trusted and are sound in their understanding usually handle such cases by presenting the gospel. In sure that you do that. I remember one pastor in particular who emphasizes that the person, having died, is now committed to the most loving Being to have ever existed. No promises but a reassurance of some degree that God is merciful.

  Thanks LC, that is more what I was looking for. I guess there is a communication gap between some others here, and myself.  In no way did I say I was going to judge anyone since I am well aware of (Matthew 7:1-3)and that is exactly what He was talking about, not judging behavior or choices but judging a person's eventual destination.

  It would be fruitless speculation at this point, especially since what is done ..is done.  ..And now like all of us, she will face the true, and only judge.

  Perhaps I can rephrase... 
 A) There is no way I could or would have any conjecture as to her destination..got it so far, guys?

 B)  Most Bible inerrancy structured churches, believe and endorse (John 3:3), which speaks to the need of being "born again".

 C) I know that her dad and much of her family are of that conviction, and take comfort in it!  Her mother passed away about 4 years ago, and she attended our church for many years.

 D) Now, here is where 'the rubber meets the road', and there is nothing mysterious about it....

 E) Since most of her family are "born again", I would like to offer some scriptures meant to give them an extra measure of comfort.  Her destination is now in God's hands, the chief  duty is to comfort the family left behind.


 Which is why I posted specifically to Deacon or Pastorp, because I assume they had done
 services, where they wish They had more information , and perhaps done it more than once. !
 
  In my retirement job which I held until just a year ago, aftyer a burial, we (tha is undertakers, preachers and funeral directors, would linger while the grave was filled, and share stories.

  A preacher told of how just the week before, he was doing a funeral in an urban setting.
Summing up his message , he gave the usual platitudes, saying.. "Mr  Jones*was a fine gentleman and father, who worked, for the good of his children, worked hard all his life"!

  He barely got the last words out of his mouth, when some lady stood up in the back, and shouted..  "That's a lie!  ..That ....M*^%#*@^R, never worked a day in his life!"

  Now, that must have been a low moment, and I dread the day, should I just preach in platitudes..  I would be deserving a comeuppance !

  * Not his real name.
.

[littlecanoe]

As the years add up and I consider the preaching of funerals I am comforted by the fact that I don’t have to preside over them. I presume that it is not the easiest of tasks at times. As I think back to services that I’ve attended i don’t recall the hope of resurrection being mentioned that often. Being born again, being in heaven and eternal life are addressed. I personal find a growing comfort in the promise of the resurrection. It is comforting to know that spirit and body will be reunited and dwell with Christ forever in a restored world. Since the family is of the Faith this angle could help them.

I pray that it goes well for you.

[ironglows]

Thanks, LC..  appreciate your input!

[Lloyd Smale]

that mans soul is gone and he has already been judged. Whats left is a rotting shell. A funeral is for the family. To give them some peace in a bad time. I cant imagine the pain it would cause a family if you or any priest or pastor refused to do a funeral because a man was a sinner. Bottom line is if that were the case funerals wouldnt exist because we (even pastors and priests) are all sinners. Being born again or not doesnt change that.  Do you think that Jesus would have refused to say words to comfort a family because the man was a sinner or not saved?? Like Dee said your way over your paygrade and judging is exactly what your doing. Your opinion of your importance in this is way out of line and like he said you need to talk to your pastor and get straightened out not some guys on an outdoor forum. Almost seems to me your purpose posting this was just to brag on the fact they chose you. If not why would you even ask it here and not go to your pastor.

[ironglows]

that mans soul is gone and he has already been judged. Whats left is a rotting shell. Not a bit of doubt there!


A funeral is for the family. To give them some peace in a bad time.
Exactly!

  I cant imagine the pain it would cause a family if you or any priest or pastor refused to do a funeral because a man was a sinner.
Nor can I !  ...Besides, I didn't say anything about any refusal. That must be a figment of your imagination   

Bottom line is if that were the case funerals wouldnt exist because we (even pastors and priests) are all sinners.
 No kidding?
 
  Being born again or not doesnt change that.
 Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but it is obvious that when you speak of "born again" you're walking in an unfamiliar woods.

Do you think that Jesus would have refused to say words to comfort a family because the man was a sinner or not saved??
No answer needed.

Like Dee said your way over your paygrade and judging is exactly what your doing.

  #1..you don't know my pay grade! #2..judging..A clear, long distance lie!

Your opinion of your importance in this is way out of line and like he said you need to talk to your pastor and get straightened out not some guys on an outdoor forum.
    If you will just recall, I was addressing a couple pastors who post here, and not the 'peanut gallery'!

Almost seems to me your purpose posting this was just to brag on the fact they chose you. Now, that is an asinine statement, nobody brags about such a thing!  Bragging?  I have done many funerals, they are 'old hat' to me.  Is that why YOU post here..is it just to brag?  It seems that almost as soon as you seem to return to a calm disposition...then you suddenly jump up to criticize... why? .... especially when I didn't ask you !

If not why would you even ask it here and not go to your pastor. Again, the post was under the "religious' forum, and I was only addressing a couple pastors who contribute here, and specifically not those who it seems, are always first to jump to some kind of attack!

  You have already said you don't like the "religious" discussion here, is this your way of trying to shut it down AGAIN ?
   You don't see me contributing in the archery forum!  Why!  Because I am not  an archer. I have no training in archery, and I realize that, in trying to correct others in the field, I would only come off looking stupid.  ...Please take note !

[Dee]

"I am not sure of her salvation testimony." 
 
  <<<<&"Question is the salvation situation"...>>>>

doing eulogies for the saved is easy...

 <<<<burial where the salvation status is unknown.>>>>

   

I want to comfort, <<<<"without making false promises".>>>>

[Lloyd Smale]

So then why do you post in the car section or the hunting sections or gun sections because your clearly not an expert in those catagories. Criticize??? Maybe look at your post there pal. Full of personal attacks. What is your REAL area of expertise? What did you do for a living? A doctor, lawyer, engineer, bible scholar?? You have bragged here on the fact your iq is in the genius levels. That you are the most knowlegable person at bible study. What did you actually do with that intelligence in life. So far all I know is you drove a tank. I know your religious paygrade and its the same as mine or anyone elses here that isnt a pastor or priest and that is an 0-0. Peanut gallery?? Best look in the mirror. You posted this to brag on the fact you were asked to preside over a funeral (if thats even true) plain and simple and everyone can see right through you. If it wasnt, like i said you would have asked the pastor that actually runs your church not someone here. Difference in me and you is I dont bs anyone and tell it like it is. Sorry if that bothers you. Wait, no im not!!!! You can be a good contributor here when you check your ego at the door. I tell it like it is and it at times rubs people wrong. But your high opinion of your importance and intelligence is just vanity and maybe at your funeral someone that actually knows you will question whether or not he should console the family of a sinner too. Im out of here. Ill let you get the last word but just know everyone can see through your bs. They may dislike me but its not because im full of BS. Its because i expose them and there bs and hypocrisy. One thing is fact. You have NO control over anyone who responds to a post. If you dont want an answer dont ask a question. If you do then just like me will get them from people you dont respect. People that arent going to pat you on the back or tell you the answer you want to here. But there is a simple solution to this one that you obviously overlooked. Ask the pastor that RUNS your church. Its his church not yours. He runs it not you.

[ironglows]

Well, I see that the ones I asked to speak to, haven't yet replied, no surprise, when the usual two volunteer curmudgeons have already muddied the water.
 
    I cannot fathom why you two seem to be so often, ready to attack. One would think there would be more sportsman fellowship.  Yes, your problem with things I have said in the past, is that you are not likely to understand people who are candid and without guile.

  Congratulations Lloyd, you may have succeeded in shutting down this forum, just as you did on the other GBO site!

  It was only a week or so previous that I posted something, and both of you jumped to the attack..which resulted in my deleting another post, so a to avoid any more attacks.

I have been quite prolific in posting on GBO reloaded, hoping to build this forum, but you
 have managed to persuade me to be heard much less often here, which I will do...after all anybody gets weary with abuse.  Enjoy...

[Dee]

Curmudgeon? Your name, and description of me. Ok.

Curmudgeon: crusty, ill tempered, and usually old.

That sure could sound like me.

When I deal with you, "a Narcissist" I guess I do come off like that.

Narcissist: a person who believes their views are superior to all others.

Reverso: never wrong

Infallible: perfect

Deflect: try to change direction of context

[Lloyd Smale]

  man up 

Well, I see that the ones I asked to speak to, haven't yet replied, no surprise, when the usual two volunteer curmudgeons have already muddied the water.
 
    I cannot fathom why you two seem to be so often, ready to attack. One would think there would be more sportsman fellowship.  Yes, your problem with things I have said in the past, is that you are not likely to understand people who are candid and without guile.

  Congratulations Lloyd, you may have succeeded in shutting down this forum, just as you did on the other GBO site!

  It was only a week or so previous that I posted something, and both of you jumped to the attack..which resulted in my deleting another post, so a to avoid any more attacks.

I have been quite prolific in posting on GBO reloaded, hoping to build this forum, but you
 have managed to persuade me to be heard much less often here, which I will do...after all anybody gets weary with abuse.  Enjoy...

[ironglows]

Well, the funeral came off very well.  I found the lady had a testimony of salvation.  I spoke the eulogy and comforted the family with assurances..and was thanked by all.
  It was an inspiring and enriching ceremony, by all accounts.   ...So much so, that the grieving father knowing I would try to refuse pay, had the Funeral director later present me with his VERY generous remuneration, far beyond the usual.  (about 3X usual)

   With the sharing of this information, and since I reacted to the accusations in the thread, in a more unpleasant manner than I normally do, I will start withdrawing from such frequent discussions and thread starters as I have in the past.
 
  I may lurk to keep in touch with events, but I doubt anyone cares to post, just so they can endure attacks, which can be both divisive and stultifying events.  Whatever the case, you will likely see less of me here. Perhaps I have been far too loquacious anyway..

   I can well understand Dark Gael's move.

[Dee]

Well, the funeral came off very well.  I found the lady had a testimony of salvation.  I spoke the eulogy and comforted the family with assurances..and was thanked by all.
  It was an inspiring and enriching ceremony, by all accounts.   ...So much so, that the grieving father knowing I would try to refuse pay, had the Funeral director later present me with his VERY generous remuneration, far beyond the usual.  (about 3X usual)

   With the sharing of this information, and since I reacted to the accusations in the thread, in a more unpleasant manner than I normally do, I will start withdrawing from such frequent discussions and thread starters as I have in the past.
 
  I may lurk to keep in touch with events, but I doubt anyone cares to post, just so they can endure attacks, which can be both divisive and stultifying events.  Whatever the case, you will likely see less of me here. Perhaps I have been far too loquacious anyway..

   I can well understand Dark Gael's move.

Back on Sept 2nd, ipostred a thread concerning a priest, and "white privilege".
On your very first post you tried to expand it to the whole catholic church. OVER & OVER..

You turned it into "ironglowisms" never (as usual) accepting any fault.

Now you've tried to start a thread allowing only members specifically selected by "ironglow".
Once again your "butt hurt" and claiming commonality with someone (in this case darkgael) as to why you'll never post here again.
SO! Suit yourself, but please share with us Darkgael's reasons for leaving, he didn't share with  us, but did with you.

Or is this just another "ironglowism"?

[ironglows]

  Again, you misread;
  "With the sharing of this information, and since I reacted to the accusations in the thread, in a more unpleasant manner than I normally do, will start withdrawing from such frequent discussions and thread starters as I have in the past.
 
  I may lurk to keep in touch with events, but I doubt anyone cares to post, just so they can endure attacks, which can be both divisive and stultifying events.  Whatever the case, you will likely see less of me here. Perhaps I have been far too loquacious anyway..'

[Dee]

I, according to you, have "mis-read". I

I on the other hand, believe you, have "misspoke". A lot (loquacious).

But your "never wrong". Ever. 

[Lloyd Smale]

nothing but another pat yourself on the back post. To claim you ere inspiring and enriching is, well i cant even say it here.

Well, the funeral came off very well.  I found the lady had a testimony of salvation.  I spoke the eulogy and comforted the family with assurances..and was thanked by all.
  It was an inspiring and enriching ceremony, by all accounts.   ...So much so, that the grieving father knowing I would try to refuse pay, had the Funeral director later present me with his VERY generous remuneration, far beyond the usual.  (about 3X usual)

   With the sharing of this information, and since I reacted to the accusations in the thread, in a more unpleasant manner than I normally do, I will start withdrawing from such frequent discussions and thread starters as I have in the past.
 
  I may lurk to keep in touch with events, but I doubt anyone cares to post, just so they can endure attacks, which can be both divisive and stultifying events.  Whatever the case, you will likely see less of me here. Perhaps I have been far too loquacious anyway..

   I can well understand Dark Gael's move.