Author Topic: In a discussion with another Christian..  (Read 1101 times)

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Offline ironglows

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In a discussion with another Christian..
« on: February 15, 2021, 12:11:58 PM »
  In fact a now retired Pastor Mack, who attends our church and occasionally teaches classes.

  He claimed Jesus was tempted in the desert...(Matt 4:1-11)

  I had to disagree, saying that Satan tried to tempt Jesus, but failed.

  I cited, (Hebrews 4:15), which says God cannot be tempted..  So how can this be?  I still believe that Jesus was not tempted, even though the devil tried his best to do so!

   After a short, cursory search, I found an article that concisely explains where I was coming from.

  What do you think?  Here's the article...
   https://www.equip.org/bible_answers/if-god-cannot-be-tempted-how-could-jesus-be-tempted/

  A short excerpt from the article;

   "First, for sin to take place there must be a sinful inner response to a seductive suggestion to sin. Though Satan appealed to Jesus’ natural human desires (e.g., hunger), our Lord did not fantasize over Satan’s suggestion. To mull over Satan’s suggestion even for a moment would have constituted sin. And, had Jesus sinned, he could not have been our Savior"
 
"They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns, then it will be through the bullet"      (Saul Alinsky) ...hero of the left..

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: In a discussion with another Christian..
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2021, 12:44:26 PM »
He was correct.
The term is incorrectly used to often.
One does not try too tempt some one, one either does or does not tempt another; how the other reacts is a matter of rejecting the temptation of or succumbing to the temptation.

tempt
attempt to entice (someone) to do or acquire something that they find attractive but know to be wrong or not beneficial.

The past tense of tempt is tempted.

Satan tempted Jesus; Jesus refused to be enticed.

Offline ironglows

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Re: In a discussion with another Christian..
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2021, 12:52:02 PM »
I see it as primarily a matter of semantics.
   The devil TRIED to tempt Jesus, but Jesus did not take the bait..therefore he was not tempted.
  Pastor Mack seemed to think that Jesus could be drawn into temptation, at least the human part of Him.

  I asked then..."Did his humanity then, over power his divinity?  I think we agreed that we still didn't agree!
"They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns, then it will be through the bullet"      (Saul Alinsky) ...hero of the left..

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: In a discussion with another Christian..
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2021, 02:07:37 PM »
I see it as primarily a matter of semantics.
   The devil TRIED to tempt Jesus, but Jesus did not take the bait..therefore he was not tempted.
  Pastor Mack seemed to think that Jesus could be drawn into temptation, at least the human part of Him.
To fall to a temptation is not the same as being tempted , it is merely a failure to refuse, to cave in to the enticement -- Jesus refused.
You are exculpating the tempting from Satan and putting Jesus, who received the tempting , not the one who did the tempting.
Tempt is a verb, not a noun.

Semantics has zip to do with it, rules of grammar do.

To tempt is to try to entice -- nothing more, nothing less -- Satan tempted Jesus -- Jesus was not enticed, nothing more, nothing less.
To fail to temp would mean Satan failed to even try to entice Jesus, i.e. it never happened at all.

This is a classic such as the bogus word, irregardless,  -- literally to say -- irregardless of your opinion -- would be the same as saying -- I am going to regard your opinion that I will not regard; right up there with the old double negative.
They no longer call grade school grammar school as they do not teach proper grammar, and listening to a lot of talking heads on TV, that is very obvious.

Offline Dee

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Re: In a discussion with another Christian..
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2021, 02:48:21 PM »
I love Bobs' English grammar lessons.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: In a discussion with another Christian..
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2021, 03:16:10 PM »
  In fact a now retired Pastor Mack, who attends our church and occasionally teaches classes.

  He claimed Jesus was tempted in the desert...(Matt 4:1-11)

  I had to disagree, saying that Satan tried to tempt Jesus, but failed.

  I cited, (Hebrews 4:15), which says God cannot be tempted..  So how can this be?  I still believe that Jesus was not tempted, even though the devil tried his best to do so!

   After a short, cursory search, I found an article that concisely explains where I was coming from.

  What do you think?  Here's the article...
   https://www.equip.org/bible_answers/if-god-cannot-be-tempted-how-could-jesus-be-tempted/

  A short excerpt from the article;

   "First, for sin to take place there must be a sinful inner response to a seductive suggestion to sin. Though Satan appealed to Jesus’ natural human desires (e.g., hunger), our Lord did not fantasize over Satan’s suggestion. To mull over Satan’s suggestion even for a moment would have constituted sin. And, had Jesus sinned, he could not have been our Savior"
You are correct,
If JESUS had for a fleeting instant, entertained the thought of food or power or anything else that old scratch threw at him, his sacrifice would have been useless.
I don’t know how anyone can think that JESUS was other than absolutely pure.
He was the lamb of GOD for pete’s Sake.      Oops, sorry IG
Give me liberty, or give me death
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Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline ironglows

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Re: In a discussion with another Christian..
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2021, 11:08:45 PM »
He was correct.
The term is incorrectly used to often.
One does not try too tempt some one, one either does or does not tempt another; how the other reacts is a matter of rejecting the temptation of or succumbing to the temptation.

tempt
attempt to entice (someone) to do or acquire something that they find attractive but know to be wrong or not beneficial.

The past tense of tempt is tempted.

Satan tempted Jesus; Jesus refused to be enticed.

  Yes Bob, now WE are indulging in semantics, quibbling over the strict usage of words..trying to find Biblical truths.  Please remember, the language employed in the New Testament, was Koine Greek.
  Koine Greek was the "language of the street" at the time, not the grammatically correct speech of diplomats or lawyers.
   ..But let's use the translated word, as we found it, the word, "tempt".  You point out that one facet of the word, means to attempt to entice, which is correct, so far as you went.  However, the word "tempt" is a multi-faceted word..  Check Merriam~Webster.
     https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tempt

  Now, look at article 2, section B...  It says to "tempt", is "to cause to be strongly inclined".  Clearly, Satan was not successful in causing Jesus to sin.
 
I won't get into a p_ _ __ing match over semantics or punctuation, since I break those rules probably as often as anyone, but I believe my English "language of the street, usually makes things reasonably clear.

  ..And to me, you and I were observing two different facets of the same word.
"They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns, then it will be through the bullet"      (Saul Alinsky) ...hero of the left..

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: In a discussion with another Christian..
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2021, 04:10:53 AM »
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tempt
  Now, look at article 2, section B...  It says to "tempt", is "to cause to be strongly inclined".  Clearly, Satan was not successful in causing Jesus to sin.
NO, you are just plain wrong and as usually refuse to
Tempt is a verb and not, he did not do it to himself, which is what your vulgarism definition says.
That Christian Research Institute article detorts the Bible just as the Mormons and JWs do.
For your knowledge anything beyond definition 1, is a vulgarism, or slang to put it in street language.
You are making the Bible say what you wish :P

Tempt -- from Merriam-Webster

1: to entice to do wrong by promise of pleasure or gain

 That WAS done  by Satan to Jesus -- Jesus was tempted by Satan; IF he was not that should have  been left out of the Bible because it is a lie.
Jesus suffered ALL the facts of life man does, or else he is not fully man; difference he kept the faith to the bitter end for our benefit ;D

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: In a discussion with another Christian..
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2021, 05:23:50 AM »
Don't ya just love folks that parse single words??
And say "you're wrong" even though every other person in the world knows the intent of the OP.
Give me liberty, or give me death
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Give me liberty, or give me death
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Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: In a discussion with another Christian..
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2021, 08:34:35 AM »
every other person in the world knows the intent of the OP.
   
Quote
Posted by: ironglows


   After a short, cursory search, I found an article that concisely explains where I was coming from.
   What do you think? Here's the article

   https://www.equip.org/bible_answers/if-god-cannot-be-tempted-how-could-jesus-be-tempted/

Your point Bugs?

Offline ironglows

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Re: In a discussion with another Christian..
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2021, 03:19:03 PM »
Bob, did you read the verse cited at the end of the article?..

      "“For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are––yet was without sin.”  (Hebrews 4:15)

   Now let us look at the various definitions, Jesus did not sin, and there is on evidence that he was inclined to do so !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     2  a: to induce to do something
     
         : to cause to be strongly inclined
     
           was tempted to call it quits


    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

  After all the gyrating and parsing of the English text, we have to keep in mind that we are dealing with a translation from the Greek.
  The Bible interlinear translates the word we read as reads "test" as opposed to "tempt".  ...And it looks like the devil tried to test Jesus..but clearly failed.

   In baseball for instance, one can TRY with all their might, to hit a home run, but unless he actually hits the ball far enough to get all the way back home..he has failed.  He has not hit a home run..

  The devil tried to tempt Jesus but Jesus didn't take the bait.. so the devil failed... no cigar !
"They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns, then it will be through the bullet"      (Saul Alinsky) ...hero of the left..

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: In a discussion with another Christian..
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2021, 04:28:48 AM »
Bob, did you read the verse cited at the end of the article?..

      "“For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are––yet was without sin.”  (Hebrews 4:15)

   Now let us look at the various definitions, Jesus did not sin, and there is on evidence that he was inclined to do so !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     2  a: to induce to do something
     
         : to cause to be strongly inclined
     
           was tempted to call it quits


    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

  After all the gyrating and parsing of the English text, we have to keep in mind that we are dealing with a translation from the Greek.
  The Bible interlinear translates the word we read as reads "test" as opposed to "tempt".  ...And it looks like the devil tried to test Jesus..but clearly failed.
   In baseball for instance, one can TRY with all their might, to hit a home run, but unless he actually hits the ball far enough to get all the way back home..he has failed.  He has not hit a home run..


  The devil tried to tempt Jesus but Jesus didn't take the bait.. so the devil failed... no cigar !
I have no idea where you think any one said Jesus sinned; you are the only one trying to float that boat.
You are infatuated with a vulgarism of the word temp, which means an attempt to entice another.
Jesus was tested by Satan tempting Jesus.
Now maybe you are confused by  temptation, NO Jesus felt no temptation, Satan failed but he was TEMPTED temted by Satan.

Tempt is a verb

Temptation is a noun

Your definition above fits the noun Temptation, not the verb Tempt.

Offline ironglows

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Re: In a discussion with another Christian..
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2021, 04:37:07 PM »
  To the contrary Bob, I didn't say Jesus sinned..  The devil tried to cause him to sin, but Jesus refused the invitation..

  Read again.... 2  a: to induce to do something: to cause to be strongly inclined

  If you still don't get it..I guess we will just have to leave it there.. Auf Wiedersehen..
"They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns, then it will be through the bullet"      (Saul Alinsky) ...hero of the left..

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: In a discussion with another Christian..
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2021, 08:01:01 PM »
  To the contrary Bob, I didn't say Jesus sinned..  The devil tried to cause him to sin, but Jesus refused the invitation..

  Read again.... 2  a: to induce to do something: to cause to be strongly inclined

  If you still don't get it..I guess we will just have to leave it there.. Auf Wiedersehen..
No one said you said that , your reading comprehension is what is off.

Offline powderman

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Re: In a discussion with another Christian..
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2021, 07:18:15 PM »
GOOD grief. YES, satan tempted Jesus, BUT Jesus was Not tempted to give in to him. See the difference now?? Does that make sense?? CHARLIE.  ::) ::)
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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