how was it done

[locust]

consider how difficult it would be to stand a cross with a man attached to it . how tall the cross ,how heavy the wood ? how heavy the man ? where is it to be stood up at ? my self i have worked in construction for the most of my life . i know how difficult it can be to stand a long pole ,as used in pole barn construction . to man handle a pole 18 to 20 foot long can be done with 3 men ,been there done that. but now take a pole maybe 12 feet long ,attach a man near what would be the top end . perhaps he weighs 150-180 lb. which puts a fare amount of weight on one side . it would be difficult working against gravity to get it stood up.
then the man dies ,how do you get him down , cut the thing off at ground level and let it fall ?

[Dee]

Keep in mind that after a beating, and flogging, Christ was made to carry His Cross some distance, before he collapsed. Then a black man named Simion of Cyrene was pulled from the crowd and made to finish the trip.
It is estimated by some to have been 7 to 9 feet in length, and weighed over 300 pounds.
No one actually knows, but assuming Christ was of average size of the time and region some believe him to have been around 5'4" to 5'6" tall.

Its all speculation. There is no record of those facts.

[powderman]

LOCUST. Welcome to the board Sir, feel free to jump in anytime anywhere. From what I've read ropes were used after the cross was patly raised to finish the job. The holes were not very deep, just enough to hold the cross upright. The romans were an extremely cruel people, the condemned were not very high off of the ground. Blood from the wounds ran down the legs and wild dogs were permitted, even encouraged to eat the flesh of the living, adding to the torture of the condemned, and pleasure of the romans.

Getting it down could be as simple as digging a hole into the hole til the weight brought it down. If the cross bar was low enough it could have been lifted out by 4-6 good stout men. I sincerely doubt that the crosses were even close to as tall as has been pictured. CHARLIE. 

[ironglows]

Have you ever wondered why some scenes of Jesus' conviction and death are set aside and visitors can view the places...but there is no place set aside where people can visit the site of his crucifixion.
 
  First let's get this straight..  Jesus' crucifixion was not and unusual event across the wide Roman empire..
  https://www.livescience.com/65283-crucifixion-history.html

  Some historians and archaeologists say that the site of Calvary is atop the hill over the garden tomb.  They claim there is a place where holes chiseled into a large rock that tops the hill..holes that were made to accept crucifixion sized timbers.
   How could Jesus after being scourged, possibly have carried the timber?  The Romans realized this too..so some scholars suggest that the uprights were already placed in the holes upon the hill, or were at least there on the hill, awaiting the cross piece to be fitted into a notch cut into the upright.

 Crucifixion was common in ancient Rome..  After the gladiator war was put down, captives were brought back to Rome, from the volcanic crater, and between Rome and it's port of Ostia...there were some 6,000 participants crucified...

  Now, some folks involved with the Jehovah's Witnesses, have a problem with the cross, simply because the JWs claim Jesus was crucified on a "tree"..  Which of course, orthodox Christianity in no way agrees with.

    The Bible clearly states that Jesus was CRUCIFIED..  The Latin  word for CROSS is CRUCIS...look it up !

  Much more information is available on the subject..

  BTW:  Christians cannot visit the hilltop over the garden tomb, because centuries ago, the area was converted to a Muslim cemetery...and all others are not permitted in the area.
  Seeing the wanton destruction going on at the temple mount today, i would expect they may have chiseled out the cross sockets long ago as well !

[ironglows]

.
  Tacitus, a Roman historian, (ca 56-102 AD)writing in the first century, described some of the practices used upon Christians (Yes, they were called CHRISTIANS) said this;

  Tacitus then describes the torture of Christians:

    "Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."

   One of my favorite little games when I was demonstrating smithing at the state fari..was to demo making 2 or 3 spikes like those used to nail Jesus on the cross..  Then I would ask if any preachers or Sunday school teachers were present in the crowd..they each got a spike for a teaching aid..  Sometimes I had to make another one or two..

[Lloyd Smale]

they built pyramids hundreds of years before that. how? leverage.  I set many poles by hand as a lineman. As big as 40 foot and heavy treated poles at that where we couldnt get a digger truck too. We had a pole jig that was basicaly a x jig that was set under the top of the pole and slid down by one man as two lifted with ropes. Once you got it past balance it was easy to sit in the hole and pulled up straight. I know back in the day they even set 60 foot and larger transmission line poles like that using horses and mules instead of man power. A 20 foot pole with a 150 lb man on it would be no trouble at all for 3 men to put in the ground. Actually the hardest part of setting a pole like that is digging the hole.

[ironglows]

..And remember, the Romans had ropes aplenty, plus the Fortress Antonia was located next to the temple mount, and an entire legion (6,000 men) was stationed there, so there was no shortage of manpower...if they even did it that way.

[locust]

they built pyramids hundreds of years before that. how? leverage.  I set many poles by hand as a lineman. As big as 40 foot and heavy treated poles at that where we couldnt get a digger truck too. We had a pole jig that was basicaly a x jig that was set under the top of the pole and slid down by one man as two lifted with ropes. Once you got it past balance it was easy to sit in the hole and pulled up straight. I know back in the day they even set 60 foot and larger transmission line poles like that using horses and mules instead of man power. A 20 foot pole with a 150 lb man on it would be no trouble at all for 3 men to put in the ground. Actually the hardest part of setting a pole like that is digging the hole.

i am going to disagree with you on how easy it would be to stand up ,that is with a man attached to  . some thing like a man attached would tend to shift around . a naked pole would be much easier to stand  . if a cross bar was attached up near the top then with two pushup sticks  ,one on each end of the cross bar to pushup and guide?? still does not explain how it would be taken down . that could be very easy or very difficult 

[Dee]

I don't guess it really matters now. Christ beat that Cross some 2000+ years ago.

[ironglows]

.
  As Dee said, Jesus beat the devil 2 millennia ago!   ...But nevertheless, if a bunch of misled Christians can recreate the same scene every Easter season without a hitch, surely the Roman army should have been able to do so.

   Here's your challenge....watch the video;

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZusqHYkVgU

   Note:  They even had porta-potties on hand !

[locust]

.
  As Dee said, Jesus beat the devil 2 millennia ago!   ...But nevertheless, if a bunch of misled Christians can recreate the same scene every Easter season without a hitch, surely the Roman army should have been able to do so.

   Here's your challenge....watch the video;

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZusqHYkVgU

   Note:  They even had porta-potties on hand !

not what i'd call a accurate portrayal of the event ,even misleading .

[Lloyd Smale]

old lineman set poles with the insulators crossarms and hardware on them. Much heavier poles then they need to nail a man too. We set pole as big as 40 foot and they were HEAVY poles that are injected with water and chemicals. They weight 3 times what a cedar poles did. Just a pole gin and leverages. Those poles were probably 6 inch poles that were only 20 foot or so long. they put alot of people on the cross back then and like anything else im sure they had it perfected. Didnt use pole setting trucks or aliens. We sure know that. If it was extremely hard to do im sure they would have stuck some wood under then and lit the fire.

they built pyramids hundreds of years before that. how? leverage.  I set many poles by hand as a lineman. As big as 40 foot and heavy treated poles at that where we couldnt get a digger truck too. We had a pole jig that was basicaly a x jig that was set under the top of the pole and slid down by one man as two lifted with ropes. Once you got it past balance it was easy to sit in the hole and pulled up straight. I know back in the day they even set 60 foot and larger transmission line poles like that using horses and mules instead of man power. A 20 foot pole with a 150 lb man on it would be no trouble at all for 3 men to put in the ground. Actually the hardest part of setting a pole like that is digging the hole.

i am going to disagree with you on how easy it would be to stand up ,that is with a man attached to  . some thing like a man attached would tend to shift around . a naked pole would be much easier to stand  . if a cross bar was attached up near the top then with two pushup sticks  ,one on each end of the cross bar to pushup and guide?? still does not explain how it would be taken down . that could be very easy or very difficult

[Lloyd Smale]

thats a fact!

I don't guess it really matters now. Christ beat that Cross some 2000+ years ago.

[ironglows]

.
  As Dee said, Jesus beat the devil 2 millennia ago!   ...But nevertheless, if a bunch of misled Christians can recreate the same scene every Easter season without a hitch, surely the Roman army should have been able to do so.

   Here's your challenge....watch the video;

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZusqHYkVgU

   Note:  They even had porta-potties on hand !

not what i'd call a accurate portrayal of the event ,even misleading .
[/quote
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Sure, the accuracy is wanting.  For instance, they didn't spike his hands and feet.  However, these simple Filipino folks accomplished the raising of the cross in just the manner it was likely done 2,000 years ago.

  So tell us..  What is the problem?    Of course, if you start with.."it has to be a stake or tree"..then we know where you are coming from..

[locust]

.
  As Dee said, Jesus beat the devil 2 millennia ago!   ...But nevertheless, if a bunch of misled Christians can recreate the same scene every Easter season without a hitch, surely the Roman army should have been able to do so.

   Here's your challenge....watch the video;

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZusqHYkVgU

   Note:  They even had porta-potties on hand !

not what i'd call a accurate portrayal of the event ,even misleading .
[/quote
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Sure, the accuracy is wanting.  For instance, they didn't spike his hands and feet.  However, these simple Filipino folks accomplished the raising of the cross in just the manner it was likely done 2,000 years ago.

  So tell us..  What is the problem?    Of course, if you start with.."it has to be a stake or tree"..then we know where you are coming from..

if there was a crossbar but Jesus was not nailed to it in the way you may be thinking . the cross bar was used to stand the thing up . if a push poles were used ,a pole on each end the crossbar it would be easier to control and stand

[ironglow]

.
  Locust...Are you still with the JWs, or have you "seen the light" ?

[BUGEYE]

.
  Locust...Are you still with the JWs, or have you "seen the light" ?

I don't think there's any light involved with him.
Too much nit-picking from locust.

[locust]

how did they get the body down ? was it in the same way it was stood ?? how many people were involved ?? was the post just cut and then let it fall ,that would be the easiest . not like its going to hurt whom ever is attached to it.   

[ironglow]

.
   Well Locust, you haven't replied to my question asking if you are still with the JWs.  A simple yes or no would suffice..

  OK; so let's look at some truly ancient depictions of crucifixions.  One good source of current news way back then, would be graffiti scratched in gladiators schools, coliseums and public venues.

  Here is a depiction of crucifixion, found in 1st or 2nd century Rome;

  https://www.amusingplanet.com/2020/03/the-earliest-depiction-of-jesus-was.html

   Another from the 1st or 2nd century  Rome;

  https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/crucifixion/ancient-crucifixion-images/
 
   

[ironglow]

  .
  Now, I expect that a hasty execution by the military, using "field expediency" , some crucifixions may have been carried out on a stake.
  However in the case of Jesus, He was not crucified on a battlefield, but beside a major city of the Roman Empire.

  His was a long sought execution, and the Pharisees were salivating at the chance.  There were 6,000 troops stationed in Jerusalem,.  ..And since crucifixion was a common Roman execution style. they likely kept crosses on hand.
  It is even possible that Jesus was only require to carry the cross beam, with the possibility that the uprights were left fitted into sockets on the  part of the "skull"

   Here is an Ivory carving of Jesus' crucifixion..  It was done in AD 400, while the Roman Empire  still operation.

   https://buildfaith.org/for-good-friday-the-earliest-image-of-the-crucifixion/

  It is hard to see why you persist on claiming a cross would be so unwieldy, since Lloyd worked at just such work for many years and has assured you that such can easily be accomplished with a minimum of manpower, even though the Romans has an entire legion available for manpower if they needed it ! 

  Not difficult at all, if you stop listening to the BS emanating from your "mod squad" in Brooklyn.

    If you wish to go on, I'll explain why the JWs are trying to pull this stunt !

[Dee]

I don't remember this "locust" so somebody refresh my memory, and how does anyone know he was, or is JW?

His question is pretty much unanswerable.

[locust]

  .
  Now, I expect that a hasty execution by the military, using "field expediency" , some crucifixions may have been carried out on a stake.
  However in the case of Jesus, He was not crucified on a battlefield, but beside a major city of the Roman Empire.

  His was a long sought execution, and the Pharisees were salivating at the chance.  There were 6,000 troops stationed in Jerusalem,.  ..And since crucifixion was a common Roman execution style. they likely kept crosses on hand.
  It is even possible that Jesus was only require to carry the cross beam, with the possibility that the uprights were left fitted into sockets on the  part of the "skull"

   Here is an Ivory carving of Jesus' crucifixion..  It was done in AD 400, while the Roman Empire  still operation.

   https://buildfaith.org/for-good-friday-the-earliest-image-of-the-crucifixion/

  It is hard to see why you persist on claiming a cross would be so unwieldy, since Lloyd worked at just such work for many years and has assured you that such can easily be accomplished with a minimum of manpower, even though the Romans has an entire legion available for manpower if they needed it ! 

  Not difficult at all, if you stop listening to the BS emanating from your "mod squad" in Brooklyn.

    If you wish to go on, I'll explain why the JWs are trying to pull this stunt !

This  ''Lloyd '' person did he make assertions as to what it would take to stand a cross with a man on it ? i dare say he did . then consider the place where the execution's took place   . not what i would call level ground .perhaps even cramped for the space needed to stand a cross with a man attached to it as Lloyd  would of done it 

[Dee]

When a fella has questions, but no answers for others, he usually has an agenda, and is best left alone.

[locust]

I don't remember this "locust" so somebody refresh my memory, and how does anyone know he was, or is JW?

His question is pretty much unanswerable.

you dont know how difficult it would be to remove the nails from the wood on a standing cross ?? its not like they had claw hammers . i find it hard to believe any one could climb a ladder and reach out far enough and then some how gain enough leverage to remove the nails of that size . it would have to be laid down  . how do ya do that ?

[locust]

When a fella has questions, but no answers for others, he usually has an agenda, and is best left alone.

you say he died on a cross . what defines a ''cross"? are there mandates which must be fallowed ? what if the cross bar wood only was 2 foot long ,does it then qualify as a cross. or does the cross bar have to be more than the width of a mans arms stretched from left to right  ?
 

[Dee]

When a fella has questions, but no answers for others, he usually has an agenda, and is best left alone.

you say he died on a cross . what defines a ''cross"? are there mandates which must be fallowed ? what if the cross bar wood only was 2 foot long ,does it then qualify as a cross. or does the cross bar have to be more than the width of a mans arms stretched from left to right  ?

Here's your answer dufuss.

[ironglow]

.
  From Locust;

  "you dont know how difficult it would be to remove the nails from the wood on a standing cross ?? its not like they had claw hammers . i find it hard to believe any one could climb a ladder and reach out far enough and then some how gain enough leverage to remove the nails of that size . it would have to be laid down  . how do ya do that ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  Really locust, you should study more than the Watchtower..since there is a lot to learn out there..

   https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_Pin_with_Claw_Hammer_Head_(FindID_575803).jpg

    https://www.pinterest.com/pin/304767099763246896/

  Actually, such quibbling is a moot point.  Jesus would have accomplished His mission just as well, if He had died on a stake...except He didn't.


  So why do the JWs insist (only since1931) that Jesus died on a stake?  Well, we all know that the JWs like to accost people in their own homes.
  They bring up the stake issue, because it can be confusing for a Christian who is not well studied.  If they can get the Christian to  doubt, by saying.."you don't even know what Jesus was crucified on" !

  Suppose I came to your house and asked you about "Shekina glory", and if you couldn't answer immediately, then I ridicule you for not knowing what it is..  That is an old, much used  "lawyer trick" !

  The JWs have started doubt..that is all.  They have planted a seed of doubt in the mind of a novice.

[Dee]

How long are you guys gonna let him push your buttons? Hes a troll.

[ironglow]

  .
  He's not "pushing my buttons"..I am only toying with him.  He is only demonstrating his ignorance, exhibited by his lack of knowledge concerning historical truths.

  Somehow, he didn't believe that the Romans could forge a claw hammer.  Shoot..any journeyman smith can punch a passable one out in 1/2 an hour.  What ever made him think the Romans couldn't do it ?

  I saw those crucifixion graffiti photos years ago..perhaps he should have researched before he stated spouting !

[Dee]

LOL,It appears ya'll are toying with "each other".