A moment in history.. Fair play and the great emancipator..

[ironglows]

.
   Historically, North America was settled by granting wealthy and/or 'connected' people being granted large tracts of land, often called colonies.  Virginia, Massachusetts, Georgia and Maryland were granted to groups of wealthy investors, while William Penn's grant was called Pennsylvania.
   Already in some of the western states, great "land barons" were already busy, accumulating land.

  Thus, as the midwestern and prairie states were added, Pres Lincoln, in his usual concern for the "little guy" and the  "average Joe", wanted to make sure the powerless were empowered.  Thus came the "homestead Act" of 1862.

     Wouldn't it be nice if today's politicians would look out so well for the average Joe..rather than just for themselves !

  https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/homestead-act#:~:text=President%20Abraham%20Lincoln%20signed%20the,pay%20a%20small%20registration%20fee.

[Dee]

  Thus, as the midwestern and prairie states were added, Pres Lincoln, in his usual concern for the "little guy" and the  "average Joe", wanted to make sure the powerless were empowered.  Thus came the "homestead Act" of 1862.

     Wouldn't it be nice if today's politicians would look out so well for the average Joe..rather than just for themselves !

  https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/homestead-act#:~:text=President%20Abraham%20Lincoln%20signed%20the,pay%20a%20small%20registration%20fee.

Yeah, that sonofbitch Abraham Lincoln was a real humanitarian.

Buchanan a pawn of northern industry lobbyists signed the "Morill Act" taxing Southern textile producers 10% for everything they sold to Europe.
Lincoln a sold out 1st year pawn to northern lobbists, was most likely a faggot (habitually slept wit a certain lieutenant), and a "documented bigoted racist", promised to double the 10% tax to 20% if elected, even though these same Southern growers were already paying over 70% of the national taxes.

When the Southern States backed away from this Biden like socialist ploy, Lincoln ended States Rights, and sicked the United States military on the Southern States that resisted his socialist government seizure, and authorized the killing of almost 1 million southern men, women, and children. Destroying their homes, their economy, and way of life.
Lincoln's message to "the little man"? Bow down, pay up, or we'll take everything you have, even if it kills you.

Then we'll divide up the spoils (your stuff), and pass it out to government loyalists.

Biden is well on his way to a Lincoln style of government.
War is all Biden likes in duplicating Lincolns' socialist attack on "the little man".

Booth could have saved thousands of lives had he shot that sob several years sooner.

And as it has been said many times "the farther away you get from history, the farther you get away from the truth.

[Argent 88]

IG, yes it would be. But it isn't going to happen.

[ironglows]

IG, yes it would be. But it isn't going to happen.

    Little doubt you are correct, but such a magnanimous leader today would be a refreshing occurrence today!

  I read Bill O'Reilly's "Killing Lincoln" about a month ago.  It should be required reading.  O'Reilly in his extensive research, was able to more thoroughly explain the huge conspiracy and frantic hatred borne by his personal enemies.

  Their plot was doomed to fail from the start.  Yes, they managed to murder the president...but each of the conspirators were to find justice..a couple in very gruesome fashion.

  Read the reviews of those who have read the book, they explain much;

  https://www.amazon.com/Killing-Lincoln-Shocking-Assassination-OReillys-ebook/dp/B004ULORYU

[Flynmoose]

Lincoln may have gotten what he deserved if it is true that he sanctioned a hit on Jefferson Davis. That plot was foiled, I understand. Whether it is true or not, it is easy to believe that Lincoln was that power hungry. I may live in the north, but my  roots are in the south.
Bill

[Dee]

Lincoln may have gotten what he deserved if it is true that he sanctioned a hit on Jefferson Davis. That plot was foiled, I understand. Whether it is true or not, it is easy to believe that Lincoln was that power hungry. I may live in the north, but my  roots are in the south.
Bill

Lincoln once told a group of free black men that they should immediately move to  "New Liberia" that blacks would always be a source of trouble for Americans.
He also said if he could end the war he instigated without freeing one single slave that he would.
Abraham Lincoln was a bought and paid for socialist ran by rich northern industrialists, seeking bigger profits by stealing Southern textiles at below market prices.
He was no different than the Biden administration. If they won't give it to you, then take it by hook, or crook, and blame it on them.
Like I said: the farther back in time history moves, the farther away from the truth it gets.
The Republicans and the Democrats have always been thieves.

[ironglows]

Lincoln may have gotten what he deserved if it is true that he sanctioned a hit on Jefferson Davis. That plot was foiled, I understand. Evidence please?Whether it is true or not, it is easy to believe that Lincoln was that power hungry.Most presidents are, to varying degrees.  It's the nature of the required personality. I may live in the north, but my  roots are in the south.
Bill

[ironglows]

Lincoln may have gotten what he deserved if it is true that he sanctioned a hit on Jefferson Davis. That plot was foiled, I understand. Whether it is true or not, it is easy to believe that Lincoln was that power hungry. I may live in the north, but my  roots are in the south.
Bill

Lincoln once told a group of free black men that they should immediately move to  "New Liberia" that blacks would always be a source of trouble for Americans. The same advice could be proffered to members of BLM today. It happened,..didn't work well then, and wouldn't work well now!

He also said if he could end the war he instigated without freeing one single slave that he would. In his letter to Horace Greely, he tried to explain that his FIRST impulse was to preserve the union..further reforms could wait!  Without first preserving the union, the rest obviously, could not be accomplished

Abraham Lincoln was a bought and paid for socialist ran by rich northern industrialists, seeking bigger profits by stealing Southern textiles at below market prices. Evidence please?

He was no different than the Biden administration. If they won't give it to you, then take it by hook, or crook, and blame it on them.  Upon what secret intelligence is this founded?

Like I said: the farther back in time history moves, the farther away from the truth it gets. Usually, but not always.


The Republicans and the Democrats have always been thieves.  Well, at least we can agree on something !
    After all, George Washington warned us about political parties, in his farewell address!   

  Not all facts are pleasant to digest...but that's life !

[Doublebass73]

  Not all facts are pleasant to digest...but that's life !

I would have to agree:

“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

Abraham Lincoln
September 18, 1858

[Dee]

  Not all facts are pleasant to digest...but that's life !

Yeah, some folks totally deny'em. I guess "reconstruction" is included.

[Doublebass73]

  Not all facts are pleasant to digest...but that's life !

Yeah, some folks totally deny'em. I guess "reconstruction" is included.

He was as racist as any KKK member in history, some people don't like those facts.

[Dee]

Agreed, there is a mountain of documented speeches ect, where Lincoln made racist comments, and statements.
People choose to be blinded by ignoring facts, and instead read one sided commentaries that dosen't damage their own perception of what they want to believe.
Lincoln was a socialist, and exercised, and demonstrated his socialist beliefs by declaring a war against the part of the American population that didn't go along with his agenda.
Reconstruction was the continued attack on the southern States that refused to bow to Lincoln's socialism, and the northern lobbyists continued to pillage those people, yet the demand facts while ignoring the obvious.

Biden has been quoting Woodrow Wilson for weeks saying no Constitutionan amendments are absolute.

[Doublebass73]

Lincoln is arguably the worst president in history because he decimated the whole concept of a voluntary union of states brought forth by the founding fathers. It is now a mandatory union of states, if your state wants to leave the union now you will feel the full force of the US military.

[Dee]

Lincoln is arguably the worst president in history because he decimated the whole concept of a voluntary union of states brought forth by the founding fathers. It is now a mandatory union of states, if your state wants to leave the union now you will feel the full force of the US military.

Exactly!

[ironglows]

  Not all facts are pleasant to digest...but that's life !

I would have to agree:

“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

Abraham Lincoln
September 18, 1858

   Source ?

[ironglows]

.
 
Abraham Lincoln was a bought and paid for socialist ran by rich northern industrialists, seeking bigger profits by stealing Southern textiles at below market prices. Evidence please?

He was no different than the Biden administration. If they won't give it to you, then take it by hook, or crook, and blame it on them. Upon what secret intelligence is this founded?

Like I said: the farther back in time history moves, the farther away from the truth it gets. Usually, but not always.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  Still waiting..

[Doublebass73]

  Not all facts are pleasant to digest...but that's life !

I would have to agree:

“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

Abraham Lincoln
September 18, 1858

   Source ?

4th Lincoln-Douglas debate. Like you said, not all facts are pleasant to digest but that's life!

https://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/the-lincoln-douglas-debates-4th-debate-part-i/

[ironglows]

.
  Thanks for the prompt reply..and the source.  The statement is not hard to digest, since Lincoln was a man of is time, following what was probably the common opinions.
  Like many of us, he likely developed his opinions over a fairly broad span of his life. I rather doubt he was the same man at the end of the war as he was at the beginning.  Same goes for many who were involved in that toughest conflict we Americans ever fought....  That being ourselves..

  In fact the evolution of his policy is evident in the papers he wrote and the opinions he expressed, as shown by official statements.
  https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/slavery.htm#:~:text=However%2C%20he%20also%20confessed%20his,monstrous%20injustice%20of%20slavery%20itself.

  I in no way suggested Lincoln was perfect in any way, any more than any other human being...such a perfect
 man does not exist !  He had his 'warts', just as all the great leaders of his time, north or south of the Mason/Dixon line.

  Truth be told, at least the leading public figures of the north or south at  that time..sure appear to be miles ahead of the majority of today's politicians.   

[Dee]

  Not all facts are pleasant to digest...but that's life !

I would have to agree:

“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

Abraham Lincoln
September 18, 1858

   Source ?

4th Lincoln-Douglas debate. Like you said, not all facts are pleasant to digest but that's life!

https://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/the-lincoln-douglas-debates-4th-debate-part-i/

Just another shining  example of Lincolns bigotry, and racism in his own words.
He was "like the modern Democratic party " justifying his actions with lying and truth twisting, and like Biden, and was willing to kill Southern economics and literally their people to accomplish his goals.
Lincoln, like Biden was willing to destroy everything to gain their wealth, and bring them under submission under false pretenses, end states right while givin seized farms, businesses,  and other properties to northern sympathizers and supporters.
Lincoln for the time was the most dangerous of SOCIALISTS, willing to kill use federal troops to bring States into submission.

[Doublebass73]

The founding fathers created a VOLUNTARY union of states. Each state had to VOLUNTARILY ratify the Constitution. Each state had a voice in that process and compromises had to be made for all states to join this VOLUNTARY union.

Lincoln turned the vision of the founding fathers completely upside down by telling southern states they had to remain in the union by the force of a gun. That's 100% Soviet and has nothing to do with a free country made up of individual sovereign states. I can't think of a worse president than Lincoln. Anyone who commands the military to fire upon fellow Americans is not worthy of any praise and deserves the title of worst president ever.

“When [the states] entered into the Union of 1789, it was with the undeniable recognition of the power of the people to resume the authority delegated for the purposes of that government, whenever in their opinion, its functions were perverted and its ends defeated . . . the sovereign States here represented have seceded from that Union, and it is a gross abuse of language to denominate the act rebellion or revolution.”

–Jefferson Davis, First Inaugural Address, Montgomery, Alabama, February 1861.

[Dee]

Like I said. Facts vs perception. Lincoln was a socialist to the extreme of willing to kill men, women, and children to impose his socialist authority, and to appease the northern industrial lobbyists he danced for.

[ironglows]

   .
  Evaluating any 18th or19th century leaders statements, by 21st century idiom, would it seems, be patently unfair.

  Lincoln, as with any 19th century leader, was a 'man of his time', and what seemed commonplace then, has proven by 21st century standards..to be sub-standard.

  He spoke openly about his ideas on the potential of some people, which was to present day sensibilities, very wrong!  Far enough, I never vouched for his perfection.  In the end, he did the right thing, ending the practice of some men owning other men!

    However, since we bring up some statements by Lincoln, let us compare some by the president of the confederacy.  Jeff Davis was a West Point grad, and thus relatively well educated, and not one who just blusters, so we can figure his statements a well thought out.  Here is a sample..

   "[P]roperty in slaves, recognized as such by the local law of any of the States of the Union, shall stand on the same footing in all constitutional and federal relations as any other species of property so recognized; and, like other property, shall not be subject to be divested or impaired by the local law of any other State, either in escape thereto or of transit or sojourn of the owner therein; and in no case whatever shall such property be subject to be divested or impaired by any legislative act of the United States, or of any of the Territories thereof."

  " We recognize the fact of the inferiority stamped upon that race of men by the Creator, and from the cradle to the grave, our Government, as a civil institution, marks that inferiority."

    Do you agree with everything Jeff Davis said, or do you have some reservations?  Or do you simply consider hia 'a man of his time' ?

        One more Davis quote, this from the 1880s;

    "The past is dead; let it bury its dead. Let me beseech you to lay aside all rancor, all bitter sectional feeling. Make your place in the ranks of those who will bring about a consummation devoutly to be wished – a reunited country."

  Now; was Jeff right in the 1860s and before..or was he correct with the above statement of the 1880s ?

  Thank God, most have grown up and moved on..

[ironglows]

  Not all facts are pleasant to digest...but that's life !

Yeah, some folks totally deny'em. I guess "reconstruction" is included.

  Let's talk reconstruction. Pres Lincoln had a vision for the defeated Confederacy, which could be considered a 19th century version of the Marshall Plan, which was instituted post WW2!  Lincoln was  n advanced thinker!

  His first act after the signing of the surrender at Appomattox Court house, was to make sure the southern troops were allowed to take their horses and mules back home with them !  He knew full well that they would be instrumental to rehabilitating the land.

  Reconstruction was spoiled by certain forces.. 1) the Democrats, who like today..fought every good idea Lincoln suggested.  2) Certain radical Republicans..which we might compare to today's RINOS, many wanting to profit from the tragedy !

  Lincoln's plan was well outlined as he left it !  Again, not perfect, since we live in a fallen world, and we only gain perfection by grace ...afforded to us by Jesus, hanging on the cross. 

  Lincoln's vision for the south was wholesome and a reuniting effort, but it has been misrepresented by long held, unrelenting hatred, by many who should know better!

  https://www.americanheritage.com/lincolns-plan-reconstruction

[ironglows]

.
  It is comforting to know that old Abe didn't harbor such hatred as is still directed back at him today !

  Here, from his second inaugural address in 1865, just as the war is drawing to conclusion:

  "With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation’s wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan—to do all which may achieve and cherish a just, and a lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations."

[Muskie Hunter]

This is quite a History lesson.

[ironglows]

This is quite a History lesson.

  To me, history is fascinating.  History does indeed repeat itself!  If we are attuned to it's lessons, we can avoid many a pitfall.

 It is sad but...one thing we learn from history, is that collectively, we don't learn from history !

[Dee]

This is quite a History lesson.

Indeed it is. Lincoln is a lesson in socialism which showed his socialist views ignored States rights. And like communism which follows socialism, committed genocide against American people (almost 1 million) that disagreed with him.
The challenge with history is separating facts, from flowers.

Biden so far, is ignoring States rights, but hasn't officially sicked the military on the States that disagree with him yet, but it's still early.

[Doublebass73]

This is quite a History lesson.

Indeed it is. Lincoln is a lesson in socialism which showed his socialist views ignored States rights. And like communism which follows socialism, committed genocide against American people (almost 1 million) that disagreed with him.
The challenge with history is separating facts, from flowers.

Anybody who ordered the US military to fire on fellow Americans should not be celebrated in any way, shape or form. Lincoln was a tyrant, plain and simple.

[ironglows]

This is quite a History lesson.

Indeed it is. Lincoln is a lesson in socialism which showed his socialist views ignored States rights. And like communism which follows socialism, committed genocide against American people (almost 1 million) that disagreed with him.
The challenge with history is separating facts, from flowers.

  Obviously, your "genocide", is called war.  Old WT Sherman himself said, "war is hell" !  The scorched earth policy was a hard thing for Sherman to prosecute, but it happens often in war.
 
   is better than wholesale slaughter , such as Pol Pot in Cambodia.  Keep in mind, there WAS an alternative available to Jeff Davis, and the Confederacy !  They could have avoided the pain of Georgia.

  Naturally, the locals did  not like the plan, and anger was such that many w a bloody tale was formulated, as accusations against the victors.

   Other instances...  During WW2, there may have been isolated incidents of Japanese troops bayoneting babies, but there is no evidence that such was a regular practice, they were far to busy to set up such an effort.

  During Desert Storm, I recall seeing on the news, a bombed out building in Iraq.  The Sadam Hussein gang took the trouble to place a large sign in front, saying... BABY MILK FACTORY...  Curiously, that sign in Baghdad was written in ENGLISH!


 We have whole industries set up, just to illustrate the latest  "outrage" in the Arab~Israeli conflict.  THis effort is jokingly called.....PALLIWOOD .

  Propaganda is a powerful tool !

 

[Dee]

This is quite a History lesson.

Indeed it is. Lincoln is a lesson in socialism which showed his socialist views ignored States rights. And like communism which follows socialism, committed genocide against American people (almost 1 million) that disagreed with him.
The challenge with history is separating facts, from flowers.

Anybody who ordered the US military to fire on fellow Americans should not be celebrated in any way, shape or form. Lincoln was a tyrant, plain and simple.

Well, disinformation works on some folks. Lincoln was cannonizd first by the Republicans, and now the Democrats.