Author Topic: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?  (Read 7175 times)

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Offline Matt

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Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
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Offline darkgael

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2021, 01:21:24 AM »
Ah, yes.....the sovereign citizen movement. Youtube abounds with videos featuring these people in court, at traffic stops. Amusing to watch until you realize that they believe what they are saying and that they are out there walking among us and driving without a license, unregistered, uninsured vehicles.
According to them, they are not “Driving”, they are “traveling”. Much of this is based on misinterpretation of the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) as well as misunderstanding of a variety of antiquated and misapplied statutes.

Offline Dee

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2021, 01:40:41 AM »
Yeah, "sovereign citizens" have no drivers license, no registration, and NO INSURANCE!
Great idea until one of'em runs into you.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline oldandslow

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2021, 02:26:41 AM »
The one's around here are know as wetbacks.

Offline darkgael

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2021, 02:49:23 AM »
Yeah, "sovereign citizens" have no drivers license, no registration, and NO INSURANCE!
Great idea until one of'em runs into you.
True. It is not just that they do not have these things. They believe that they do not need these things, that the laws that require them do not apply to them. They do not pay taxes. They will not accept or sign a ticket because to do so means that they are entering a contract with an unconstitutional private organization.
Although I normally do not cite Wikipedia, the entry therein is a quick tutorial about the movement.
At the end, after this person has been released, he claims that the USSC ruled that drivers licenses, etc are not needed.
This is a bogus claim. That man may believe it but there is no such case or decision from the USSC.

Offline Goldie

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2021, 02:56:14 AM »
The way I see it is they are all deadbeats trying to buck the system and biden and his fellow democratic yahoos created it.

Offline darkgael

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2021, 03:08:39 AM »
The way I see it is they are all deadbeats trying to buck the system and biden and his fellow democratic yahoos created it.
The SC movement predates Biden, Trump, Obama, et al. The movement originated with the Posse Comitatus sometime around 1971 although one can find roots that go further back than that.

Offline ironglows

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2021, 03:19:51 AM »
.
 Let's use a little common sense.  I enjoy my freedom as much as anybody, but such things as license, insurance and registrations were set up in order to protect and serve the vast majority of our  citizens...and most people understand that.
  As Dee pointed out...it's all fun and games until somebody's kids are hit and injured or killed by some clown that figures he doesn't have to be a qualified driver, or carry reasonable insurance.

 The rest of us are already paying increased premiums to protect us from the "uninsured driver", and it isn't funny !
"They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns, then it will be through the bullet"      (Saul Alinsky) ...hero of the left..

Offline Goldie

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2021, 03:44:37 AM »
The way I see it is they are all deadbeats trying to buck the system and biden and his fellow democratic yahoos created it.
The SC movement predates Biden, Trump, Obama, et al. The movement originated with the Posse Comitatus sometime around 1971 although one can find roots that go further back than that.
  Well Sir I  really don't care when or where this movement started,  I do care that I have to drive around worrying about uninsured idiots hitting me without insurance. It just seems to me that in these times under biden people think they don't have to have any morals, obligations or anything to do with what's right or wrong. When Nixon was in the presidency in 1971 at least this problem was not as common as now or put it another way I didn't hear about it as much. Let me say it another way also, biden didn't create it but sure seems like he condones it. I guess these people will be on his list like Tulsans for reparation payments from him and the ho.

Offline Mule 11

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2021, 07:39:27 AM »
Yeah and gun control is put into effect to protect people too... Also red flag laws and other laws. Hey. We’re entiled to be protected right? Mask mandates and forced vaccinations. For your protection. I see some places are allowing children to be vaccinated without parental consent or knowledge. Also. For your right to be protected. Slippery slope once you start down it...

Offline Goldie

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2021, 09:16:57 AM »
Anything biden does is a slippery slope.

Offline Matt

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2021, 09:40:38 AM »
Black's Law Dictionaries: Editions 1 through 10
DRIVER.   One employed in conducting a coach, carriage, wagon, or other vehicle, with horses, mules, or other animals. Black’s Law Dictionary, 1st Ed. 1891, p. 395

DRIVER.   One employed in conducting a coach, carriage, wagon, or other vehicle, with horses, mules, or other animals, or a bicycle, tricycle, or motor car, though not a street railroad car.  See Davis v. Petrinovich, 112 Ala. 654, 21 South. 344. 36 L. R. A. 615: Gen. St. Conn. 1902.  §2038; Isaacs v. Railroad Co., 47 N. Y. 122. 7 Am. Rep. 418.  Black’s Law Dictionary, 2nd Ed. 1910, p. 398

DRIVER.   One employed in conducting or operating a coach, carriage, wagon, or other vehicle, with horses, mules, or other animals, or a bicycle, tricycle, or motor car, though not a street railroad car.  See Davis v. Petrinovich, 112 Ala. 654, 21 South. 344. 36 L. R. A. 615:  Gen. St. Conn. 1902.  §2038; Isaacs v. Railroad Co., 47 N. Y. 122. 7 Am. Rep. 418. Black’s Law Dictionary,  3rd Ed. 1933, p. 622

DRIVER.   One employed in conducting or operating a coach, carriage, wagon, or other vehicle, with horses, mules, or other animals, or a bicycle, tricycle, or motor car, though not a street railroad car.  A person actually doing driving, whether employed by owner to drive or driving his own vehicle.  Wallace v. Woods, 340 Mo. 452, 102 S.W.2d 91, 97.   Black’s Law Dictionary, 4th Ed. 1951, p. 585

DRIVER.   One employed in conducting or operating a coach, carriage, wagon, or other vehicle, with horses, mules, or other animals, or a bicycle, tricycle, or motor car, though not a street railroad car.   A person actually doing driving, whether employed by owner to drive or driving his own vehicle.  Wallace v. Woods, 340 Mo. 452, 102 S.W.2d 91, 97. Black’s Law Dictionary, 4th Ed. Revised 1968, p. 585

Black's Law Dictionary (a secondary source of law) from the 1st edition to the 4th edition revised reveals the legal definition of  "driver" and it is backed by case law:

1. Davis v. Petrinovich, 112 Ala. 654 (1896)

2. Isaacs v. Railroad Co., 47 N. Y. 122. 7 Am. Rep. 418 (1871)

3. Wallace v. Woods, 340 Mo. 452 (1936)

The definition of "driver" clearly states that a driver is someone who is employed, if some one is employed to drive then they are engaged in transportation/commerce and the state has the right to regulate the activity, but to specify more clearly there are three words of art or legalese to understand in the definition listed by Black's Law, 1) employed, 2) person, and 3) operate, which all confirm to being in a corporate status/capacity.

Starting  from the 5th edition the definition driver has been phased out even though it is still the law. The 5th Ed. has removed the first half of the definition see below:

DRIVER.  A person actually doing driving , whether employed  by owner to drive or driving his own vehicle. Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th Ed. p. 445

DRIVER.  A person actually doing driving , whether employed  by owner to drive or driving his own vehicle. Black’s Law Dictionary, 6th Ed. p. 495

DRIVER. 1. A person who steers and propels a vehicle. 2. A person who herds animals; a drover. Black’s Law Dictionary, 7th Ed. p.510

DRIVER. 1. A person who steers and propels a vehicle. 2. A person who herds animals; a drover. Black’s Law Dictionary, 8th Ed. p. 533

Driver. A person who steers and propels a vehicle. 2. A person who herds animals; a drover. Black's Law Dictionary 9th Ed. page 569

Driver. (15c) 1. Someone who steers and propels a vehicle. 2. Someone who herds animals; a drover. 3. A piece of software that allows a computer to work with with another piece of hardware such as a mouse or a printer.   Black's Law Dictionary 10th Ed. page 603

https://thelawdictionary.org/driver/  by Black's Law


THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S DEFINITION OF 'DRIVER' BELOW:

U.S. Department of Transportation

https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/part/383

 Scroll down to Question #17 just below is the definition of driver as we have verbatim below:

"Driver means any person who operates a Commercial Motor Vehicle (CMV) ."

"It will be observed from the language of the ordinance that a distinction is to be drawn between the terms 'operator' and 'driver'; the 'operator' of the service car being the person who is licensed to have the car on the streets in the business of carrying passengers for hire; while the 'driver' is the one who actually drives the car. However, in the actual prosecution of business, it was possible for the same person to be both 'operator' and 'driver.'"  Newbill vs. Union Indemnity Co., 60 SE.2d 658 (1933)



Chauffeur.  An operator who directly or indirectly receives compensation for operating motor vehicle. Turner v. State, 226 Ala. 269, 146 So. 601. Operators who drive jitneys in cities and towns for hire. Day v. Bush, 18 La.App. 682, 139 So. 42, 44. Person employed or paid to operate, drive and attend car. People v. Fulton, 96 Misc. 663, 162 N.Y.S. 125, 126; Des Moines Rug Cleaning Co. v. Automobile Underwriters, 215 Iowa 246, 245 N.W. 215, 217; State v. Depew, Md., 175 Md. 274, 1 A.2d 626, 627.

Test whether person is a chauffeur is whether he operated motor vehicle in whole or part-time employment, whether he was at such time an employee, servant, agent, or independent contractor, and whether he was paid for his service. Maryland Casualty Co. v. Cronholm, D.C.Tex., 32 F.Supp. 375, 377. Black's Law Dict. 4th Ed. page 300


Driving is an occupation...truck drivers, bus drivers, limo drivers, Uber drivers, Lyft drivers, taxi cab drivers...ect..

DRIVING IS AN OCCUPATION CASELAW

1.  O'Connor v. Uber Technologies, Inc.  201 F. Supp.3d 1110 (2016)  on page 13

2. Hummel v. Marten Transport, Ltd. 114 Conn.App. 822 (2009) on pages 13 and 14

Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
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Offline Doublebass73

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2021, 10:21:22 AM »
Yeah and gun control is put into effect to protect people too... Also red flag laws and other laws. Hey. We’re entiled to be protected right? Mask mandates and forced vaccinations. For your protection. I see some places are allowing children to be vaccinated without parental consent or knowledge. Also. For your right to be protected. Slippery slope once you start down it...

Don't you just love when the government "protects" us?
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

---- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

Offline Mule 11

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2021, 10:29:17 AM »
Yeah and gun control is put into effect to protect people too... Also red flag laws and other laws. Hey. We’re entiled to be protected right? Mask mandates and forced vaccinations. For your protection. I see some places are allowing children to be vaccinated without parental consent or knowledge. Also. For your right to be protected. Slippery slope once you start down it...

Don't you just love when the government "protects" us?
Just putting out a different perspective...

Offline darkgael

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2021, 10:36:08 AM »
“Driving is an occupation.”
So...is driving only an occupation. When you or I step into our car or truck, sit behind the wheel, start the engine and go to the store, are we driving? The SC says no; they are traveling.

Offline Mule 11

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2021, 11:36:16 AM »
There's a few states that don't require insurance to own, drive, operate or transport yourself in a vehicle; and New Hampshire is one of them. Naturally all the losers, near-do-wells, impaired and scoff laws don't get insurance....and that's the ilk likely to run into you..
I don’t concede. I am sorry for your loss and don’t believe insurance money could ever compensate you for that. Abrupt. Yes. Again. I am sorry for your loss...

Offline Doublebass73

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2021, 12:11:48 PM »
It's funny how all the "conservatives" who complain about the government forcing you to buy health insurance have no problem with the government forcing you to buy car insurance. Things that make you go hmmm......
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

---- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

Offline orerancher

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2021, 12:29:02 PM »
The one's around here are know as wetbacks.

Around Here too...The Cops Know It...and won't do anything about It...

Offline Mule 11

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2021, 12:57:22 PM »
It's funny how all the "conservatives" who complain about the government forcing you to buy health insurance have no problem with the government forcing you to buy car insurance. Things that make you go hmmm......
In all honesty. The richest. Most money hungry person I know owns and operates an insurance company. Things that make you go hmmm.....

Offline Dee

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2021, 01:18:18 PM »
It's funny how all the "conservatives" who complain about the government forcing you to buy health insurance have no problem with the government forcing you to buy car insurance. Things that make you go hmmm......
.
Health insurance is for the benefit of you and your family. And to deal with nonpayers.

Auto insurance is for the benefit of people and property  you damage from your actions and choices.

Now the guy that ran in us cost me $1.4 million and medicaire put a lean on me to recover their $450 thousand payouts...not on the guy that caused the crash. My medigap insurance subrogated me too.. You might be able to sustain that kind of losses...but not me.

But yeah.....ban auto insurance as long as the injured party gets to mete out equal like and kind damages. Right now in NH with the libber judges, the derelicts doing harm and damage have little skin in the game. The loser that hit us is probably on his 4th stim check.

Its  bad pretzel logic when so-called conservative mind think is used to facilitate the mechanations of liberal irresponsible losers.
.
.TM7

True. All of it.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Mule 11

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2021, 01:28:49 PM »
I think the injured party should be able to mete out equal like and kind damages...

Offline Dee

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2021, 01:37:27 PM »
Trouble with getting even with an uninsured driver theology,  is it doesn't replace your property loss.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Mule 11

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2021, 01:53:52 PM »
I only stated what I thought was fair... I’m not the king. Although I have metered out my form of justice on a few occasions...

Offline Goldie

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2021, 02:38:30 PM »
Illegals don't worry about driver licensing much less insurance. We don't need no stinking badge,  I mean license. Come on man. .

Offline Dee

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2021, 03:35:02 PM »
Uninsured motorists have been a problem since the beginning. In the late 70s we started towing and impounding uninsured vehicles.
Illegals would buy a one week car policy to get their plates, then cancel the policy after Texas made insurance mandatory to register the car.
Those policies were done away with at some point, and now most agencies impound these uninsured vehicles, and the owner is required to provide proof of insurance before the vehicle is released.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Ranger99

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2021, 04:45:34 PM »
Personally been hit by uninsured drivers.
One was border jumpers that abandoned
ship and left their vehicle sitting in the
middle of the street.
A friend of my mother was hit by border
jumpers and they abandoned ship and
left her badly injured and her car totaled.
She was hurt bad enough and elderly enough
that she was never able to return home and
had to be placed in a nursing care facility.
One of her daughters moved her out of
state away from her home and friends and
she quickly went downhill and passed.
My own mother was hit a couple of times
by border jumpers that fled and her car
was totaled out. The last car she had was
hit and totaled by a career welfare recipient
that had one of those pay by the week
insurance policies and of course it had
lapsed and the at fault driver got away
with it and my mother was left high and dry.
I can almost sympathize with those that
hire those TV lawyers. It's to the point
you need one to come out without losing
everything you have.

JMHO-  at fault uninsured drivers should
have their assets attached until the aggrieved
party is paid in full with some extra for
the trouble caused by the at fault party
18 MINUTES.  . . . . . .

Offline Matt

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2021, 05:43:06 PM »
Quote
JMHO-  at fault uninsured drivers should
have their assets attached until the aggrieved
party is paid in full with some extra for
the trouble caused by the at fault party

Couldn't agree more..
That is why we have Compensatory and Punitive Damages in the court system.

Though I must admit what is troubling to me is the fact that so many people are so quick to state that those who "travel" are low life criminals thugs and such. The truth of the matter is nothing of the sort. Many folks myself included have found it easier to " get along to go along" though it is that very mindset that has landed us here where we are today. 

To many of us are willing to "comply" for perceived "security & safety". The truth of the matter is that according to the LAW a person does not have to nor can they be forced to purchase permission to "travel" on the public roads.  As such as a license, tag, or insurance. But make no mistake, there are provisions outlined in the LAW for which these items ARE required and can be mandated, but they all require there to be commerce involved.

Now as to what if's and such.

What if that low down dirty piece of scat hits me and my family on the road?

   Well, there are laws that provide you with a remedy in such cases. As Ranger said and I agree if you injure another person then you should be made to pay damages until such time as that person is made whole again. Also if such is not possible in the case of TM7 then the person should stand trial on criminal charges for their actions as well as face the civil consequences for their actions, even if that means the person has to pay monetary damages for the rest of their life in the form of "HARD LABOR".


Also if you feel you need insurance on your vehicle or if you are required by a finance company to have insurance then one is simply a fool for not having an "uninsured motorist" clause, it's not that much more for that "Peace of Mind" and in no way forces upon others something to make you or I feel better.

So for me or anyone else to sit here and say that a person has to comply with laws that do not apply to them is just nonsense. Words are powerful, they have meaning, learn the meaning and how it applies in this case and I promise you will be wiser for it.  A little research can take you down a rabbit hole that just might completely change how you see the world and your place in it.

So, agree? Disagree? lets talk about it so that we all might understand better that which make us see things the way we do.

Matt

 
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Doublebass73

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2021, 02:12:25 AM »
Well said Matt.

When it comes to car insurance most of our resident "conservatives" quickly become liberals. They want everyone punished (forced to carry car insurance) for the actions of a few. Sounds a lot like gun control to me, punish the masses for the actions of a few.

It's a much better solution to punish the few who drive uninsured and cause harm and keep the government out of the lives of those of us who cause no trouble.
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

---- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

Offline ironglows

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2021, 02:46:05 AM »
.
  OK..so let's go where "the rubber meets the road'..no pun intended..  Here's the next question..

  So, who is in favor of driving on the highways along with unlicensed, unregistered and uninsured drivers? 

     ...And who is not in favor of such a scenario?
"They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns, then it will be through the bullet"      (Saul Alinsky) ...hero of the left..

Offline Goldie

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Re: no license, registration, insurance, or tags ?
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2021, 04:29:01 AM »
IG I figure I have been driving here in Arizona and soon to be Texas along time with people without Insurance. I do pay for underinsured or no insurance on my insurance and always have. That's why it keeps going up every 6 months. Either pay the piper or gamble on it.