Author Topic: Reloading Military Brass (Read 1720 times)

Dixie-Dude · « **on:** June 10, 2021, 10:38:31 AM »

I am having a hard time reloading 308 military brass. I have around 400 rounds. What I have reloading only about half will cycle. I ran some through a standard die, then used a Lee full length resizing die. I trimmed the length. I de-crimped the primer pockets. Then I can't even close the bolt on my bolt rifle (Ruger 77) nor close the bolt on a BLR Browning lever.

I'm thinking the necks aren't sized right or the base is too wide. They go in except the last little bit. I can't see inside my gun so I'm not sure what to do.

I know the military brass is thicker, but I've never had this problem with .223 military brass.

Any ideas?

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** June 10, 2021, 11:52:08 AM »

Get a gage to check the cartridges with. I use the aluminum ones from Lyman personally. You can slip it in that gage and know if it will or won't fit. It will also help you tell what isn't right.

You might have brass from a machine gun and that seems to have higher pressures and gets seriously banged around. I see it in some .223 stuff also. I still use some military .223 but nothing else and am weaning myself away from military .223 brass.

Moleman · « **Reply #2 on:** June 10, 2021, 11:54:11 AM »

Sharpie a case that won't chamber and chamber it to see where the sharpie rubs off because it's tight. They make small base dies for 223, 308 and 30-06 if it's a body diameter issue, and sometimes guys have had to take a few thousands off of the bottom of their sizer die because they wouldn't bump the shoulders on cases back far enough. You might have less springback if you anneal the case necks.

JustaShooter · « **Reply #3 on:** June 10, 2021, 01:36:24 PM »

Quote from: Moleman on June 10, 2021, 11:54:11 AM

Sharpie a case that won't chamber and chamber it to see where the sharpie rubs off because it's tight.

That's the technique I use, works great to find where you need to focus your efforts when your rounds won't chamber.

orerancher · « **Reply #4 on:** June 10, 2021, 01:45:54 PM »

Mr. Graybeard is Correct....Your Brass went Through a M60...

Ranger99 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 10, 2021, 02:27:33 PM »

I messed with some troublesome
brass a while back, and tried several
different solutions including a
small base sizing die.
My problem was that it all worked
up beautifully and chambered
great. After firing, it would stick
in the chamber and I had to
drive the case out with a length of
rod through the muzzle.
There wasn't any way to tell which
ones they were since they were
commercial headstamp cases.
Supposedly allegedly " once fired
range pickup"
My solution was to smash the
offending cases flat to render
them unusable and avoid any
mixup with good cases.
If you have a sure way to identify
the trouble cases, pull your components
and smash the cases and sell
them with your worn cases as scrap.

Life is way too short to spend
irreplaceable time diddling with
junk rounds
Good Luck

mcbammer · « **Reply #6 on:** June 10, 2021, 02:36:43 PM »

When I first started out reloading in the late 70s , I bought 2000 30 06 military cases , after breaking a dozen or so decapping pins I gathered them all up an took' em the scrape yard . been using commercial brass ever since . But as mentioned in another post ,annealing would likely solve some problems . Just extra work & expense .

Ranger99 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 10, 2021, 02:41:16 PM »

Quote from: mcbammer on June 10, 2021, 02:36:43 PM

. . . Just extra work & expense .

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ this
The extra work and expense and time
negates any savings of using an
unknown quality of brass
Wear and tear on your equipment too

My time is the most valuable
thing I have. I can't buy any
at any price

Dixie-Dude · « **Reply #8 on:** June 10, 2021, 03:46:13 PM »

Thanks guys. It has been a lot of extra work.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #9 on:** June 10, 2021, 10:45:24 PM »

ive used lake city military brass for years. I run them all through a small base died and decrimp the primer pockets. They chamber well and run well in my ar10 and my bolt guns. Only gun i had that was troublesome with them is an older dpms ar10 that was troublesome with about anything. It obviously had a chamber that was to tight. It wouldnt run even factory brass that had been fired in my bolt guns unless it was small base sized. Anymore for 223 and 308 I use a small base die on everything. I want my ammo to run in any gun i grab. Some say it cuts back on brass life but i havent seen it. If anything you might loose one firing. Where you might run into extraction problems with military brass usually comes from the fact its thicker and has a bit less case capacity so even a top end book load can show the beginnings of over pressure. Cut back a grain and it usually works fine. You also need to trim it before you shoot it the first time. My routine anymore with 556 and 308 is to trim after every firing. Ive got a dillion press mounted trimmer and its fast and easy. My main goal with that ammo isnt accuracy its reliablility and like i said its mandatory it runs in every gun. Ive seen once fired military brass that when fired in sloppy chambers grows to much in length too and that can cause pressure and extraction problems. If your throwing it away please send it to me. Ill pay the shipping.

30calflash · « **Reply #10 on:** June 11, 2021, 04:03:43 AM »

Lots of unknowns you're dealing with, MG fired brass, maybe a tight chamber or just not sized enough.

Try firing a commercial case and check it with one of these: https://lewilson.com/case-gage

From the Wilson site: The "Wilson Case Gage" A one piece gage that will check overall length and indicate min/max case length
Measures min/max Headspace. Does not measure body diameters
This gage is intended to be used with fired cases to determine a basis for full length sizing and case trimming

If you have mismatched dies and shell holder, not sizing enough it can be the issue. I use a similar gage to check the case headspace as I've a few in same caliber and keep ammo separate because of this. Semi's have more chamber clearance, in general, and the brass will fill the space.

If it's been fired in an MG it can be much oversize and probably fail quicker than if fired from a rifle due to very large chambers.

Check case length, VERY important to do this. Can wreak havoc if not kept to less than max length.

I mention this instead of pitching those cases as things are hard to come by now. Most of my loading is with USGI brass and I have really no problems with it.

Dixie-Dude · « **Reply #11 on:** June 11, 2021, 03:45:09 PM »

I have measured and trimmed ALL cases to the proper length. Seated the bullets to the proper length. Ran thru two different dies, one is a full length die. I still had problems. I hate to waste primers. I can pull the bullets and save the powder, but hate to loose the primers. Thought about taking the decaping pins out of the dies and lube the outside of the shells and run them through again, maybe adjusted down a bit more to push in the shoulders. The base diameter measures the same as good shells. I think the necks are a little too long.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #12 on:** June 11, 2021, 10:22:22 PM »

buy yourself a small base die and if you can afford it add one of the new lee bulge buster dies for the 223. It sizes down the base of your case that even a small base die cant. I think there like 20 bucks. If that doesnt cure it you have chamber issues with the gun.

Dixie-Dude · « **Reply #13 on:** June 12, 2021, 02:08:42 PM »

Do they have bulge buster dies for 308? Haven't had any problems with 223/556 brass. I guess because it is smaller and thinner and not so much used in machine guns except the SAW maybe. They have gotten away from full auto on the M-4's, to single and 3 shot bursts.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #14 on:** June 12, 2021, 10:14:49 PM »

i dont know the answer to that. The 556 one is relitively new so maybe not.

Quote from: Dixie-Dude on June 12, 2021, 02:08:42 PM

Do they have bulge buster dies for 308? Haven't had any problems with 223/556 brass. I guess because it is smaller and thinner and not so much used in machine guns except the SAW maybe. They have gotten away from full auto on the M-4's, to single and 3 shot bursts.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #15 on:** June 12, 2021, 10:30:31 PM »

just did some searching and came up with nothing. So id first try a small base sizing die and if that doesnt get you there try (still using the small base die) milling some metal off the top of your shell holder so it pushes the case up into the die a smidge more. Now DO NOT use something like hornady spray lube for this. You will need a real good lube like lanolin based lubes. Lee and rcbs and dillion and imperial are all good ones. I use anhydrous lanolin for all my heavy duty sizing. Its the same thing as imperial but MUCH cheaper. Now if you can afford it id go with reading small base dies. They seem to size a bit more then my rcbs small base dies and cases seem to not be as tough to get out of the die.

Castaway · « **Reply #16 on:** June 13, 2021, 01:14:11 AM »

Sounds like the brass came from an M 240 or M 60 with a slightly more generous chamber that allows for more reliable feeding. As mentioned, mark your brass with a Sharpie and see where the friction lies. Looks like a small base die is in your future

Moleman · « **Reply #17 on:** June 13, 2021, 08:00:11 AM »

Quote from: Dixie-Dude on June 11, 2021, 03:45:09 PM

I have measured and trimmed ALL cases to the proper length. Seated the bullets to the proper length. Ran thru two different dies, one is a full length die. I still had problems. I hate to waste primers. I can pull the bullets and save the powder, but hate to loose the primers. Thought about taking the decaping pins out of the dies and lube the outside of the shells and run them through again, maybe adjusted down a bit more to push in the shoulders. The base diameter measures the same as good shells. I think the necks are a little too long.

Did you try the sharpie method to see where the cartridges are sticking in your chamber? I shoot and reload quite a few wildcat and it can tell you if it's a diameter issue or length issue and what exact spot or spots on the cartridge need attention.

Dixie-Dude · « **Reply #18 on:** June 13, 2021, 04:43:25 PM »

Yes, tried the Sharpie and it the cartridge that wouldn't load into my bolt gun removed the marking at about 1/2 inch up from the bottom of the cartridge. I measured it with calipers and it was wider than a good cartridge. So, how many times do you have to run them through the die. I have a short based Lee die and a Lee full length sizing die. Ran all of them through both.

I did take a few that had already been run through the small based die and re-lubed it and ran it through again and it was still hard like the first time. I guess they keep springing back out. Do you guys think if I run them through a few more times they will finally take the proper shape? Feel like I wasted a lot of time. I bought the brass from a fellow member here, but didn't ask if they were military. He said they were range pick ups. Other brass I bought from him was ok and no problems, just the 308.

.308 is the hardest of all brass to find at the local range. In the past there has been plenty of 223, 9mm, 40 S&W. Then there seems to always be a few rounds of 270, 30-06, 30-30. Hard to find but some 44 mag, 357 mag, and 45 acp. I make 35 Whelen from 30-06 brass, my largest caliber. Other brass I can't find is 7.62x39, 7.62x54, and 8mm Mauser. So, I occationaly buy a box of new just to get the brass for reloading. New ammo has been hard to find this past year.

Anyway, thanks for all the input, I guess I will have to keep running them through the dies until they stay in place. I will have to move on to other calibers in the meantime.

Graybeard · « **Reply #19 on:** June 13, 2021, 05:34:36 PM »

No I think they are ready for the scrap brass pile. Annealing might fix it but since it's that near the head, annealing is a no-no there. I believe the machine gun ruined them forever. Toss them but use a hammer first so no one else finds and tries to use them.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #20 on:** June 13, 2021, 10:35:45 PM »

have to agree. Sometimes you just have to say enough and toss them in the trash.

Moleman · « **Reply #21 on:** June 13, 2021, 11:04:28 PM »

A small base die has a smaller inside diameter than a standard full length sizer and is a specialty die that often costs a little more. I don't believe I've ever seen a small base die set that wasn't a Redding, RCBS and recently lyman. I've mostly used the same set of 223 and 308 Lee full length dies for the majority of those cartridges that I've loaded. Occasionally I'll get the same issue you're having and a small base die will usually let the cases chamber.

https://www.rcbs.com/dies-and-shell-holders/rifle-dies/small-base-sizer-die---group-a---popular-rifle-cartridges/778.html

Best I could find about small base lee was on titan reloading https://www.titanreloading.com/die-questions/small-base-die-explanation

Lee does make some "U" (undersized) dies for pistol calibers, but I've never seen one of their bottleneck dies marked or sold as "small base".

ulav8r · « **Reply #22 on:** June 14, 2021, 05:51:01 PM »

As a last chance try, find a small base die and try sizing with a pause as the ram is all the way up. Holding the case firmly into the die for 5 to 10 seconds "might" size them just a bit smaller. Otherwise you are going to have to toss them.

Dixie-Dude · « **Reply #23 on:** June 15, 2021, 06:52:00 AM »

Over half the people on this forum and also on another I frequent recommended a small based die. I ordered one and am going to give it one last try with the small based die. The die is cheaper than buying a lot of new brass at this time.

Dixie-Dude · « **Reply #24 on:** June 23, 2021, 01:49:30 PM »

Got my small based die. Tried it. Works like a charm. One or two didn't want to go in. Re-lubed and worked them in. Tried those two in my rifle, and dropped right in, closed the bolt and ejected them fine.

Thanks for the tip on the small based die.

Moleman · « **Reply #25 on:** June 23, 2021, 07:58:38 PM »

Glad it worked for you. I've got the RCBS small base dies in 223 and 308 and will generally use them to size fired surplus that I've bought or range pickups, but use a standard full length sizer after that. My son inherited a 243 BLR (lever action) from his grandfather and so far it has feed fine with a Lee 243 full length die set. I had planned to get a small base die for it, but as long as it still chambers fine there's no need.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #26 on:** June 23, 2021, 11:52:56 PM »

go down to your pharmacy and ask for some anhydrous lanolin. Its the same thing as imperial sizing wax but much cheaper. When you use a small base die you need a GOOD lube. lanolin imperial rcbs and lee are decent lubes all based on lanolin. STAY AWAY from hornady one shot. It works great for light duty sizing but if your small base sizing its just a matter of time before you stick a case. Learn to feel them go in. If you get more resistance with one case then you got with others STOP and dont force it into the die. Usually if you take that case and rub a bit more lube on it by hand it will go in just fine.

Quote from: Dixie-Dude on June 23, 2021, 01:49:30 PM

Got my small based die. Tried it. Works like a charm. One or two didn't want to go in. Re-lubed and worked them in. Tried those two in my rifle, and dropped right in, closed the bolt and ejected them fine.

Thanks for the tip on the small based die.

O-mega · « **Reply #27 on:** June 24, 2021, 04:40:32 AM »

I started reloading back in the mid 80s, back then, I was a mere private and could just barely afford the Lee presses and dies. But being military, military surplus ammo was always my go-to since it was about the cheapest you could find. So I have always loaded military brass, and but for only a few instances, it has always reloaded just fine. As a matter of fact, the only time I had an issue was when I started converting 5.56 brass into 300BLK, and now 277WLV. Maybe it was because I never ended up with any cases fired from MGs, or any weapons with loose chambers until then, but even now I don't own any SB dies. What I do now is full length size the case, then turn the case 1/4 turn and size again until it falls into the Sheridan case gauge, usually twice but sometimes 3 times.

I have used a few different case lubes, the Lee, Hornady One Shot, RCBS Imperial and a DIY, and for the most part they performed well. When I started messing with converting cases, I had a few stuck cases. I at first blamed the lube (one shot) as they were really stuck. But now I think it was a combination of a small rim and a loose Lee shell holder that were more to blame. Now that I am more solvent, I decided to "upgrade" all my dies and have gone to RCBS for the most part (not much of an upgrade IMO), so it was only natural to get RCBS shell holders too, and I find that they are tighter around the rim, making more contact with the case. I also feel that the Lee dies, at least mine, are looser as well, because the Hornady dies I now use to form 300BLK seldom need more than one forming/sizing operation. So when I converted over 1k cases into 277WLV, I didn't have one stuck case using the imperial, RCBS case holder, Hornady die combo. The cases may not have been shot from MGs though, so it may not be a fair comparison, but so far so good.

Dixie-Dude · « **Reply #28 on:** June 26, 2021, 04:57:34 AM »

The spray lube didn't work so well. Used paste lube and it worked better. Hadn't thought about lanolin. Might try that.

Mule 11 · « **Reply #29 on:** June 26, 2021, 01:41:27 PM »

I appreciate the info. Have had problems with 06 and 08 brass in the past. Now I have a different perspective. Thanks all...