What say you teachers

[DDZ]

All we have to do is look at the product being turned out by our government run schools.

Product? Are you talking about children or automobiles? One of the problems in American education is that too many people look at schools like they are factories, like they are manufacturing, producing the standard all purpose pupil.
Schools are not factories. They do not produce a product. Schools - grammar schools, high schools - the teachers never see the finished student. Properly taught students leave public education/private education looking for more, understanding that there is a whole lot left to learn. Properly taught the student will have the critical skills to understand when someone is trying to sell them a bill of goods and that there are plenty of people that will smile at them and arrange their demise at the same time.
You want your kids to be able to read well, to do math, to understand where places are in the world, to grasp how this great country works….democracy is messy….you want you children to understand where they fit in the mess and what they are to do. To do this……much of it happens after they leave the classroom….they have to be able to think, to be able to put ideas together correctly and to recognize when others are not doing so. That is the primary responsibility of the schools ……to teach children to think.

I think you know what I meant. Using the term product, I was being a bit sarcastic.  Do you honestly think that kids are being taught how to read well, do math, understand where places are in the world, and get a grasp on how this country works? Also do you think children are being taught how to think ? The main stream media, and Hollywood does their thinking for them.  From what I see they are more so being indoctrinated into hating the historic American nation, its founders, and the majority race. Kids are being taught by anti American, anti white bullies, that were indoctrinated by our schools of higher learning, and now its in our K-12 schools.  Teachers have captive malleable minds for a number of years. So when better to start the indoctrination process by government and teachers?
 Indoctrination happens in the absence of thinking. I think a lot of teachers indoctrinate unconsciously. They take what they are given and teach it without thinking. Scripts written for teachers is how LGBT advocacy and, anti American fabrications get included into lessons. The common core garbage has facilitated progressive indoctrination by smothering independent thought. It trains kids to not think by emphasizing skills over content, and relative standards over absolute ones.  Indoctrination works, and its one of the big reasons America is so divided.     
If our education system we have now was implemented by a foreign country decades ago. It would have been considered an act of war.

If there are so many teachers that don't agree with what they are teaching, or don't agree with the powerful teachers union. Where are their voices?  They are as quiet as church mice, because I think there really are not many of them. I think a large majority of teachers are full blown liberals that have been indoctrinated themselves.       

[ironglows]

.
  Time to quit referring to CRT (Critical Race Theory), simply because it's more zealous proponents, seem to make it a moving target.  ....Much like trying to nail Jello to a tree !

   there is far too much obfuscation going on... and I would like to believe that not all teachers are participating.

    These traitors of the public trust should not be getting offthe hook so lightly..by simply saying .."I don't teach CRT".  ..Whatever that is .

   Don't play their game carnival style, moving target games..simply state what it is. ...perhaps..something like, "anti American teaching ?

  These traitors of public trust should not get off the hook

[guzzijohn]

Remember almost everything that takes place in a school is politically directed, especially from state legislators on down to the school boards. If the local school board says CRT is to be taught it is going to be or the teacher better look for other work. All that is taught in public schools is directed by ELECTED people. Don't like what is being done than need others elected. Why does it appear that schools are more liberal than you like, I guess that liberals either work harder than conservatives to be in those positions and/or they are WHAT VOTING PEOPLE WANT. That is what it boils down to.
GuzziJohn

[darkgael]

The common core garbage has facilitated progressive indoctrination by smothering independent thought. It trains kids to not think by emphasizing skills over content, and relative standards over absolute ones.  Indoctrination works, and its one of the big ….

I agree. The emphasizing of skills over content is a direct result of “the schools produce a product” mindset. (And No, I did not know that you were being sarcastic. I accepted your comment at face value because there are many who do believe the product idea. It is nice to know that you are not one of them.)
Please note my emphasis on “properly taught” as far as what may be happening in today’s classrooms. It is a lot easier to teach skills than content. Easier to test them also. Want your student population to do well on tests? Emphasize skills. Dont get me wrong…..skills are the necessary framework for clear and concise expression of ideas; without content, though, you have only an empty frame.
About “powerful unions” …..this I do not understand. In my 34 years in the classroom, i was never told by the union what to do or how to do it. I am critical of Unions for other reasons but not for that.

Dee: Do I watch the news, etc.? Am I to understand that we should accept sound bites and edited videos as clear and accurate proof of an idea? Given the difficulty of separating and defining what is and is not CRT just in this forum,I have  little faith that what I see on the news is trustworthy.

[ironglows]

Remember almost everything that takes place in a school is politically directed, especially from state legislators on down to the school boards. If the local school board says CRT is to be taught it is going to be or the teacher better look for other work. All that is taught in public schools is directed by ELECTED people. Don't like what is being done than need others elected. Why does it appear that schools are more liberal than you like, I guess that liberals either work harder than conservatives to be in those positions and/or they are WHAT VOTING PEOPLE WANT. That is what it boils down to.
GuzziJohn

   While I tend to agree with you on the parts of your post that I highlighted..the rest is gibberish (IMO).

 With conservatives, they see such things as teaching the US Constitution and history as it truly transpired, rather than to cook up some false narrative.

  Who is serving in high offices should have no effect upon teaching honest history and working to unite, rather than to divide the nation.

 Where did you ever get the idea that schools should be proving ground for frustrated politicians?  ..Especially since politicians of any stripe, are among the least trusted of all people.

  Your statement, coming from a former teacher, that politicians should govern what is taught in public schools...presents one of the best arguments for "school choice" that I have heard in recent months.
 
  Then this...  "All that is taught in public schools is directed by ELECTED people. '

  Where on God's green earth, did you ever get the idea that the likes of Nancy or AOC ,should be trying to mold   young people into imitations of themselves?

[guzzijohn]

IG, where in my post did I say the schools should be a proving ground for frustrated politicians? I was pointing out what is at this time concerning what is taught and how it is taught. During the last few decades conservatives just come off as that group that just complains (about public schools) but seem unwilling to put in the efforts and probably dollars it takes to turn the ship in the direction they see fit.
How often have I read on this site that "Why would one take a job that requires college but pays less than many non-college jobs." But then if increasing the pay to attract your idea of a better teacher is needed conservatives resist that saying what a cushy job it is and does not deserve higher pay plus I don't want to pay more taxes. Can't have it both ways.
GuzziJohn

[Dee]

The common core garbage has facilitated progressive indoctrination by smothering independent thought. It trains kids to not think by emphasizing skills over content, and relative standards over absolute ones.  Indoctrination works, and its one of the big ….

I agree. The emphasizing of skills over content is a direct result of “the schools produce a product” mindset. (And No, I did not know that you were being sarcastic. I accepted your comment at face value because there are many who do believe the product idea. It is nice to know that you are not one of them.)
Please note my emphasis on “properly taught” as far as what may be happening in today’s classrooms. It is a lot easier to teach skills than content. Easier to test them also. Want your student population to do well on tests? Emphasize skills. Dont get me wrong…..skills are the necessary framework for clear and concise expression of ideas; without content, though, you have only an empty frame.
About “powerful unions” …..this I do not understand. In my 34 years in the classroom, i was never told by the union what to do or how to do it. I am critical of Unions for other reasons but not for that.

Dee: Do I watch the news, etc.? Am I to understand that we should accept sound bites and edited videos as clear and accurate proof of an idea? Given the difficulty of separating and defining what is and is not CRT just in this forum,I have  little faith that what I see on the news is trustworthy.

I gave my opinion on the thread topic not directed at anyone.  You directed your post at my opinion. Which is fine.
However, in reality I'm really not concerned as to where you get your information.  I think we both have determined some time back that we usually don't agree on politics, and religion.   

[DDZ]

About “powerful unions” …..this I do not understand. In my 34 years in the classroom, i was never told by the union what to do or how to do it. I am critical of Unions for other reasons but not for that.

It certainly isn't any secret that teacher unions have long been deeply connected to the democratic party and leftist ideology.  This has certainly been more apparent in the last number of months. Now the teacher unions in some states are threatening with strikes if schools reopen. in Massachusetts they got the school openings pushed back to a later date, and are fighting for permanent remote only learning. Oh, and they want no funding cuts.  Its pretty much been proven that covid does not affect kids. Yet teacher unions are, and have been using covid as an excuse to not go back to work.  There should be no such thing as public unions.  Its so easy for them to hold the tax payers hostage. 

I belonged to a gas workers union that the leadership more or less told us to vote for democrats. Most of our dues went to the AFLCIO where they were funneled to the democratic party. Only 1% of union dues handed out by the AFL-CIO went to conservative groups or organizations. Labor unions have and always have been an ATM for the democratic party. 

[ironglows]

From DG;

  IG:
Quote
schools will be a closer reflection of the culture they are supposed to be serving.
True enough.

  Reflection of the culture…….local culture? National culture? I suspect that the local culture in Boise, Idaho is different than it is in Hendersonville, NC. Despite that, those souls are American and there is common ground. So….what gets taught?
And….proven excellence. Who decides what the standard of excellence is? There should be a way of doing it. Given what you wrote about reflecting the culture…..how do you measure that?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Well DG, let's look at it this way, the USA did just fine before the federal department of education was even put into effect.  Children were learning to read, write, spell and do some advanced work.

  Kids in Idaho, Louisiana, Vermont and Nevada, were competent in reading, writing and spelling the English.
  The things they learned in science, mathematics and history were simply universal truths..back when most
 teachers were inclined to teach truths.

  You speak of "who's culture"?   Well, let's look at it this way, for 200 years we did just fine and we remained the UNITED States, certainly much more UNITED than we are today.   The great divisions we face today seem to have come about primarily since the federals took charge of the situation.

  According to recently retired teacher Guzzi, we should have politicians i Washington or state level, passing down their views on what constitutes a good education..  Below; see Guzzi's post #67..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     "Remember almost everything that takes place in a school is politically directed, especially from state legislators on down to the school boards. If the local school board says CRT is to be taught it is going to be or the teacher better look for other work. All that is taught in public schools is directed by ELECTED people. Don't like what is being done than need others elected. Why does it appear that schools are more liberal than you like, I guess that liberals either work harder than conservatives to be in those positions and/or they are WHAT VOTING PEOPLE WANT. That is what it boils down to.
GuzziJohn

  Note:  He said "All that is being taught in public schools is directed by ELECTED people".. 

   He also declared that, "almost everything that takes place in school is POLITICALLY DIRECTED", and that curriculum can be changed at a political whim. ....Thereby reinforcing the conclusion that liberals intentionally meddle in the educational process.

[darkgael]

IG:

According to recently retired teacher Guzzi, we should have politicians i Washington or state level, passing down their views on what constitutes a good education..  Below; see Guzzi's post #67..

Maybe I missed it. Show me where in those passages that you quoted that Guzzi uses the word “should”. Between the two of you, you are the one using “should”.
The “elected” official idea does not have to refer to Nancy Pelosi and her ilk.  Boards of Education in local school districts are elected and play a influential role in what gets taught. I believe that was at least part of his idea.
Boards of Ed have always scared me. You can have six, eight, ten people elected to supervise what goes on in their school district. Chances are that most of them, maybe none of them, have taught for even a few minutes in any school anywhere. And yet, there they are running the schools. How does this happen? It happens because of the common experience of education. Pretty much everyone has spent years in classrooms. I spent sixteen years in classrooms before I ever stepped in front of one. So….everyone is an expert. Been there. Done that. Played with the band. Right?
Wrong. Being a student and being the teacher are wildly different experiences. If a person does not agree with that, then they do not understand the dynamics of the classroom.. Which group do our elected officials fall into more often than not ?
Pete
PS…”who’s culture”……did I write that? If i did, please accept my apology for the misspelling.
PPS: Regarding CT (critical theory)…..virtually every post in this thread is an example of critical theory at work. Nothing to be afraid of.

[ironglows]

.
  DG;
          Shoulda, coulda, woulda..who's..whose..

       So now you are resorting to parsing words (a la Bill Clintion), in an attempt to 'prove by any method', your contentions.
  I really expected more from you Pete !

  Guzzi did say this.. " "All that is taught in public schools is directed by ELECTED people."
 

  You can say he was mistaken,  or you coukld say it is better to have a congressman, rather than some "local yokel' directing education
    That would sound good if one were naive enough to think congress people by and large, are paragons of truth and honesty..
  Take for instance..Nancy...AOC..Ilhan Omar...chucky Schumer...Nattering Nadler or Adam Schiff..
school district.

   You further say..   are that most of them, maybe none of them, has taught for even a few minutes in any school anywhere.

  Well, my..my..  Do you actually suppose there is no other way to gain teaching skills, than attending state college classes directed toward teaching?

  In my own case, i was instructed in teaching at non-commissioned officers school..taught men's classes for a couple decades..and have taught various work related skills.

  Surely others here have dome much the same...  then with today's "pass a certain quota of this group or that group"..and the value as many college diplomas come into question.

  Certainly, many inner city schools are not educating a plethora of Einsteins..we hear those complaints every day.

[Lloyd Smale]

How often have I read on this site that "Why would one take a job that requires college but pays less than many non-college jobs." But then if increasing the pay to attract your idea of a better teacher is needed conservatives resist that saying what a cushy job it is and does not deserve higher pay plus I don't want to pay more taxes. Can't have it both ways.

but then what would the C and D students in college that are there on mommys dime mostly to party going to major in. My opinion is doctors lawyers dentists all have advanced degrees. Teachers are responsible for teaching our kids and even think there more qualified to teach them morals then parents. Bare minimum a teacher should have a masters degree. Both my mother and sister got there masters and made more money teaching because of it. As it is today any one that can coast there way through high school can do the same and get a teaching degree. THAT is why the pay is low. Why do they take those low paying jobs? Because for lazy people teaching beats the hell out of getting dirty working construction where you actually have to sweat. Or working on some production line. What other job gives you the summer off to play. Full benefits. Health care till you die not only for you but your spouse. Add those summers off and that health care and retirement plan and youll soon see there benefit package is much better then most. God forbid if a union auto worker or union police officer trys to get a better wage but to you union teachers should be able to hold the country hostage. What teachers today forgot is they are payed by tax payers. Not by unions. It shouldnt be up to them what they teach. they should teach what the people paying there salaries want them to teach. Every teacher should have to submit a lesson plan for the year to the school board for approval and those approvals should come in open to the public forums. You have quite a overblown sense of worth. What this teacher bs in this country is all about is just that. Teachers are so egotistical they think they should be thought of in the same catagory as doctors, lawyers and engineers.

[guzzijohn]

From Lloyd:

Health care till you die not only for you but your spouse. Add those summers off and that health care and retirement plan and youll soon see there benefit package is much better then most.

There you go again with the teacher bashing and blanket statements.
When I was working the health care benefit for my wife and I cost me just over $600 an month with $4,000 deductible. Nothing after retirement. My first wife was a systems analyst for Boeing and then Beechcraft (with a BS degree) Her retirement plan was light years above mine and we paid nothing for the health plan nor had any deductibles or prescription costs. If she had not died before retirement her health plan would have stayed with her for life.
GuzziJohn

[ironglows]

.
  Guzzi asks me;

   "How often have I read on this site that "Why would one take a job that requires college but pays less than many non-college jobs." But then if increasing the pay to attract your idea of a better teacher is needed conservatives resist that saying what a cushy job it is and does not deserve higher pay plus I don't want to pay more taxes. Can't have it both ways."
GuzziJohn

  I don't actually recall hearing(seeing) that particular statement here..but I'll take your word for it.  However, I never said that iIthought increasing pay would necessarily draw better teachers.

  Often, as with government stupidity, just  throwing money at a problem, doesn't necessarily solve anything !
 
    Keep in mind..   Aren't teacher pay and positions more or less regulated by the union's seniority system? Are they advanced or paid according to their capability and quality of work, rather than some nebulous union reason for promotion?

   Years ago, I was chairman of the board of education for our K-12 Christian school.  Our scores average was far above public school levels, and the teachers were happy with far less remuneration and tuitions were much lower than public school levels.

Those teachers wanted nothing to do with a union, since they preferred to prove themselves by their competence.

[darkgael]

.
  DG;
          Shoulda, coulda, woulda..who's..whose..

       So now you are resorting to parsing words (a la Bill Clintion), in an attempt to 'prove by any method', your contentions.
  I really expected more from you Pete !

  Guzzi did say this.. " "All that is taught in public schools is directed by ELECTED people."
 

  You can say he was mistaken,  or you coukld say it is better to have a congressman, rather than some "local yokel' directing education
    That would sound good if one were naive enough to think congress people by and large, are paragons of truth and honesty..
  Take for instance..Nancy...AOC..Ilhan Omar...chucky Schumer...Nattering Nadler or Adam Schiff..
school district.

   You further say..   are that most of them, maybe none of them, has taught for even a few minutes in any school anywhere.

  Well, my..my..  Do you actually suppose there is no other way to gain teaching skills, than attending state college classes directed toward teaching?

  In my own case, i was instructed in teaching at non-commissioned officers school..taught men's classes for a couple decades..and have taught various work related skills.

  Surely others here have dome much the same...  then with today's "pass a certain quota of this group or that group"..and the value as many college diplomas come into question.

  Certainly, many inner city schools are not educating a plethora of Einsteins..we hear those complaints every day.

IG: I expected more from you. What you have written is a virtually complete misunderstanding of what I wrote.
The Who’s/whose thing played no part in my explanation….and yet, it was the first thing that you focused on. The “should” business is important because it changes the whole response that Guzzi wrote….
About teaching skills…..i never said that getting a degree in education was the only path to acquiring the skills….you inferred that maybe because it is convenient to your argument. A person learns ABOUT teaching in college or in the service as you did or some other way. A person learns how to do it, what works, what does not by being in the room with the kids day after day. Teaching adults and teaching teenagers or young children have different challenges. Your experience was with adults….work related (I assume). Being in a room with 25 or 30 sixteen year olds…..is something quite different. Those classes of teens are what we are talking about when we criticize today’s schools. Citing the teaching of job skills to adults, while creditable, is a distraction. Often members elected to the BoE have neither.
That reference to why would someone take a job that pays less, etc. was written on this forum. I do not remember who wrote it but it was said.
Your point about private schools paying less salary and scoring better than the public schools in general is well taken. It is often true. No denying. Have you ever considered why that might be so?  Private schools get a more select population; children come families that are motivated to do better. Public  schools get the general population. My son teaches in a school in Oakland, CA. 50% of the students on his roster never attend.
That passage that begins with “you could say that he was mistaken” and goes on to Pelosi, et al…..where did that come from? Neither Guzzi or I said anything of the sort.
To Lloyd…..dont know where you live. In NYS, a Masters Degree is required. Yes, benefits are quite good in NY. The rest of the country …..not so much. Your response implies that all teachers have those benefits. That is far from the case.
About summers off. Yes, it is the way the school year is structured, pretty much universally. I worked every summer and the holidays for a cabinet maker. During the summer, I required my advanced students to read literature which I assigned to them and to write essay responses to what they read. They had to send those essays to me. One every two weeks. I read them, critiqued them and sent them back. Between the woodworking and the school work (for which I was not paid) there was little time for vacation.

[Lloyd Smale]

you must have a different union then my mother and sister had. They get free insurance for life for themselves and there spouse. Dont have a clue what there pensions are because i would never ask something like that. But ive never heard them complain about it. That said they did have masters degrees which probably gets them a bit more pension because they made more. Still the only job i know that gives you three months off every year. So when they piss and moan about making x dollars a year keep in mind that that is for 9 months. Many teachers i knew worked other jobs in the summer. Took me 30 years to get to the point i had 30 days vacation a year. Bottom line is we all know its the profession that the flunkys that mommy will pay there way to college take up. Fact is you sure dont see a teacher with callused hands or even dirty pants.

From Lloyd:

Health care till you die not only for you but your spouse. Add those summers off and that health care and retirement plan and youll soon see there benefit package is much better then most.

There you go again with the teacher bashing and blanket statements.
When I was working the health care benefit for my wife and I cost me just over $600 an month with $4,000 deductible. Nothing after retirement. My first wife was a systems analyst for Boeing and then Beechcraft (with a BS degree) Her retirement plan was light years above mine and we paid nothing for the health plan nor had any deductibles or prescription costs. If she had not died before retirement her health plan would have stayed with her for life.
GuzziJohn

[guzzijohn]

From Lloyd:

Fact is you sure dont see a teacher with callused hands or even dirty pants.

Here you go again with blanket bashing. "Fact"? Yes, there are many teachers with out callused hands. IT's A WHITE COLLAR JOB. How many other white collar professionals do you see with callused hands? BTW though I have worked with teachers that do have callused hands due to working after hours and during the summer as construction workers, farmers, painters, landscapers, lawn business, pressure washer business, harvest crewman, housekeepers, you get the idea.
You are like the former orange one that says things like "Everybody is saying so."
GuzziJohn

[ironglows]

.
   As Lloyd mentioned, He e in Michigan, i being in N Y, evidently the benefits for teachers are similar.  the union in the Buffalo NY area even wrangled a deal where the taxpayers would pay for any plastic surgery the teacher decided they wanted..
  Admittedly, some of them needed it badly..but for others, it wasn't a matter of need, but of of light  surgery for vanity's sake.

    The argument Guzzi presents of a teacher, because he has a "degree" or two, should seemingly, automatically command a higher wage that one working without a degree, or not in the field their degree .

   That is a falsity..  I bring to mind two of my nephews.  Bailey has a degree or two, but he has chosen to work another field.  He works as a pole-lineman, and does better than his degree would do for him..besides he considered that the degree related jobs were too boring.

  My other nephew Jay, A big guy 6'8" and one time national golden gloves super heavy weight chamoion  (novice division) although he has many skills..diesel mechanic, operator etc.. he now works also in stringing wires.  These wires are up there sometimes hundreds of feet. Some poles on steep mountainsides, are set and strung from a helicopter.

   How much pay it take for you to do those jobs, supposing you could do it ?  There are all kinds of reasons why pay is either high or low, and it has little to do with degrees.

    A few years ago, Jay worked some evenings for certain clubs, also for an NHL team as a "bouncer" for unruly folks....

    How much would you expect, to do that job?

[darkgael]

Lloyd:

you must have a different union

Probably, unless they worked in my school district. Teachers in a school district are represented by the union in that particular district. It is that union that negotiates benefits and salary with the Board of Ed. Pensions are decided on the state level.
Their insurance is not free. It is a benefit. They worked for it. The school district from which I retired no longer offers the same insurance benefits. Retirees have to pay.

[Lloyd Smale]

he shows his real side every time he feels he needs to make his orange man comments. Like the rest of those idiots. The country is coming apart at the seams with this liberal leadership. Bidens ship is sinking and all they can do is blame trump. Id say its comical but his kind are destroying this country. I guess id rather be an orange man then a pink one. I dont make blanket statements against teachers. If anything im one of the only ones here that will say there's good and bad. I grew up in a teaching family. Ive said it a hundred times. My grandparents were both teachers my mother and sister both teachers. Heck the block i grew up on had 20 homes and 15 of them were teachers familys. My best freinds had teachers for parents. Blanket statements??? Id say orange man about covers that. NOW there's a closed minded blanket statement!!!!!!!!!!. Hes just the type of teacher my mother and sister will say brought shame to the profession.

[ironglows]

.
    Conservatives should sweep, come 2022 and 2024...if only we can get an HONEST election...

[Lloyd Smale]

I had a lineman working with me for 12 years. He started out an apprentice lineman and became a journeyman and then when i retired he got my lead job. Heck of a worker. He had a teaching degree and taught at a high school in a town about 35 miles from here. He told me he spent two years teaching and it was like a prison sentence. Not because of the kids and not because of the management. It was the other teachers that drove him nuts. He said they were nothing but a bunch of very lazy bittys that did just enough to get a pay check and the men were even worse. More gossipy then the women and lazier too. He said hed about rather go to prison then have to teach again and it wasnt even the job. He said he enjoyed the kids. But because he did he was ostracized by the rest of the lazy sobs. 

.
   As Lloyd mentioned, He e in Michigan, i being in N Y, evidently the benefits for teachers are similar.  the union in the Buffalo NY area even wrangled a deal where the taxpayers would pay for any plastic surgery the teacher decided they wanted..
  Admittedly, some of them needed it badly..but for others, it wasn't a matter of need, but of of light  surgery for vanity's sake.

    The argument Guzzi presents of a teacher, because he has a "degree" or two, should seemingly, automatically command a higher wage that one working without a degree, or not in the field their degree .

   That is a falsity..  I bring to mind two of my nephews.  Bailey has a degree or two, but he has chosen to work another field.  He works as a pole-lineman, and does better than his degree would do for him..besides he considered that the degree related jobs were too boring.

  My other nephew Jay, A big guy 6'8" and one time national golden gloves super heavy weight chamoion  (novice division) although he has many skills..diesel mechanic, operator etc.. he now works also in stringing wires.  These wires are up there sometimes hundreds of feet. Some poles on steep mountainsides, are set and strung from a helicopter.

   How much pay it take for you to do those jobs, supposing you could do it ?  There are all kinds of reasons why pay is either high or low, and it has little to do with degrees.

    A few years ago, Jay worked some evenings for certain clubs, also for an NHL team as a "bouncer" for unruly folks....

    How much would you expect, to do that job?

[Lloyd Smale]

Dont take my comments as a slam to you. Like is said I grew up with teachers and know there are some good ones out there. I also realize that insurance is a benefit they earned. But that for life is a hell of a benefit and add to that like i said its a 9 month job and its hard to feel sorry for them. They chose there job knowing full well what kind of money it payed. If it wasnt good enough then why didnt they get a degree in something that paid more. Ill be dammed if id spend 4 years in college and take out student loads to make 50k a year. You can do better then that holding a stop sign up on a road construction job. You have no reason to be ashamed or defensive any more then my mother does. Its not you that used his vote to destroy this country and has the balls to brag about it.

Lloyd:

you must have a different union

Probably, unless they worked in my school district. Teachers in a school district are represented by the union in that particular district. It is that union that negotiates benefits and salary with the Board of Ed. Pensions are decided on the state level.
Their insurance is not free. It is a benefit. They worked for it. The school district from which I retired no longer offers the same insurance benefits. Retirees have to pay.

[Lloyd Smale]

I fear even if we take back the house and senate this year and win the election in 2024 that it will take more then 8 years to correct the damage thats already been done by those idiots. Then what your going to have is people like or very own guzzy that will blame the republicans in office for all the damage the democrats did. Add to that that even though they won the idiots are rioting in the streets and murder rates have skyrocketed and crime rates are through the roof. Can you imagine the hornets nest nancy and chuck will stir up if they loose there power!!!! Guzzis not alone theres brain washed idiots in every town and every state in the union. theres 10s of thousands of those brain dead 60s commune hippys just like him.

.
    Conservatives should sweep, come 2022 and 2024...if only we can get an HONEST election...

[ironglows]

.
  I do have to  allow some latitude for public school teachers.  Heaven knows, they are so often handed basket cases passing as children..most difficult to deal with, and they are expected to TEACH them..

  We all know, there are some youngsters out there..have a house they live in... but no family or family structure.
 they have no idea how to conduct themselves in civilized company..

   Seemslike the 'parents' should be held accountable for such neglect.

[Dee]

Health care for teachers in my understanding, is paid for through their retirement plans that they contribute to during their career.

What I, and millions of others have questioned for years is, "health care for life" for non combat military that served 2 to 4 years. 2 to 4 years in the military gets one free medical benefits for life.
Then there are those that get these "lifetime health benefits" that go on to a 30 year+ civilian  career, then draw retirement from that career, and then file "and get" a total disability check every month from the military.
That in itself, seems way farther over the top than teachers retirement benefits that they "earned" over a career spanning decades.

Factual information States that around 7% of the United States population served in the military, and only 1 out of every 10 soldier actually saw combat.
All 3 of my sons served in the military. Only ONE saw combat (3 tours 39 months total) and only ONE rides the "health care for life" gravy train. And no, it's not the combat veteran. He pays his, and his family's own way.

On the other hand, I had an uncle that joined the United States Air Force. He had two tours in Vietnam, one being at Danang Air Base when it was hit losing somewhere around 100 aircraft in that attack.
He died while still on active duty with 30+ years and no intentions of retiring at the time. He earned everything he, and his family received as far as  benefits.

Now, I'm sure I'm going to catch some flack for pointing out these "facts", and be accused of being "unpatriotic", and not supporting the troops.

So be it, let'em rave.

I will say that, I contributed 3 sons to the services, and they will tell anybody that their old man has always supported the military.

However, many veterans with 2 to 4 years service, never served in combat, have, and are, gaming the system, and a corrupt Veteran Administration is helping them.

Anytime a military veteran can come out of a 2 to 4 year non combat military service, then do a 25 to 30 year career in a physically demanding job, they should not be entitled to "free health care for  life", and certainly not "full disability military benefit checks".

Ive known numerous acquaintances over the years that have done this, and it should be treated as fraud.

While I don't agree with what our new and improved CRT teaching school system teachers are promoting, I don't begrudge the benefits they paid during their careers, and whilst EVERYONE complains about Congressional members getting "lifetime medical benefits" I will say the same thing about "non-career ex-military" with less than 5 years of non-combat service.

[Lloyd Smale]

well i get va disability and am not ashamed for taking it. I was in an accident doing drug interdiction work and broke my back, shattered my hip and ankle, broke one leg and had 6 broken ribs and a broken wrist. Since the the initial operations that i had while spending a year in the hospital recovering  ive had 5 back surgerys a total ankle replacement two hip replacements (recovering from on i had a month ago right now) I was told a week after the accident that id probably not walk without some kind of assistance ever again. I busted my ass. I worked through the pain and was actually a year and a half after the accident able to pass the physicals test that let me reenlist. I didnt collect a dime till around 10 years ago when those injury's caught up to me and the surgeries started again. I wont apologize to anyone for what i get. Especially people who didnt serve.  Ive lived with pain every day since that accident. yup if you served you get free medical for life. That is if you have no other insurance. So in fact for most of them that just means a choice between va med coverage or medicate which gives insurance to anyone whos on welfare and didnt do anything for this country. Personaly i will never bash what any military, police, fire fighter ect get because those are the people that risk there lives for us. Not some teacher that might get a paper cut. Yup many of them never saw combat or got burned in a fire or shot by gang members but when they took that job they took it knowing it was a possibility that they might have to make that ultimate sacrifice and thats good enough for me.

[Lloyd Smale]

yes the public school teachers in some areas are going nuts with this bs but i think its limited to certain areas. The real problem in our education system and its teachers is and has been for a long time the college level teachers. That right there is the liberal breading grounds.

.
  I do have to  allow some latitude for public school teachers.  Heaven knows, they are so often handed basket cases passing as children..most difficult to deal with, and they are expected to TEACH them..

  We all know, there are some youngsters out there..have a house they live in... but no family or family structure.
 they have no idea how to conduct themselves in civilized company..

   Seemslike the 'parents' should be held accountable for such neglect.

[Dee]

I have a recently deceased distant relative who joined the military right out of high school. He drew full military disability for the rest of his life, and worked different jobs until the day he died at age 70.
He received his injuries in a car accident while on leave, and they were non military related. He was not permanently incapacitated from the accident, nor was he impaired. He worked until he retired.

[ironglows]

.
   Sometimes it goes that way. I cannot even get 10% so far.  I am not interested in the pay, if there is any;  I just don't want some lefty administration to quickly dissolve my VA medical rights.

  My claim is based upon my times as a tanker.  Many don't realize the noise inside the turret of a tank, while engaged in firing..especially rapid firing. 

  1) Loader, loading a 125# round into the chamber makes some noise

  2) The round going off, is of course, very loud

  3) then there is the breech block slamming down

 4) The brass ejecting onto the turret floor, either hitting the floor..or several shells of previously ejected brass.

 5) Then there is the pressure or concussion effect..nasty on the ears.

   Compared to the main gun tube, the co-axial machine gun beside my ear (as gunner), wasn't too bad.

   Back in the 1950s, they furnished no ear "muffs"..  So the sensitive parts of my ears of course by now, are made of plastic and electronics...and I install them each morning.

 ...But so far, they don't listen.