US ambassador blames American victims trapped in afgh for choosing to stay « o

[powderman]

   
US ambassador blames American victims trapped in afgh for choosing to stay
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https://www.foxnews.com/media/top-us-diplomat-tells-cbs-americans-who-chose-not-leave-is-their-business

Outrage over US ambassador's 'heartless' comments on Americans trapped in Afghanistan: 'Blaming the victims'
'This person should resign immediately or be fired'
By Cortney O'Brien | Fox News

Media top headlines August 26
Outraged viewers condemned U.S. diplomat Ross Wilson as "heartless" after he appeared to engage in victim-blaming after noting the State Department warned Americans in Afghanistan to leave and saying it's "their business" for those who chose to stay in the tumultuous region.

"Why didn't the U.S. get out Americans and our Afghani friends before the Taliban were able to take control from Kabul?" CBS News anchor Norah O'Donnell asked Wilson, the acting U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, on Thursday.

"We put out repeated warnings every three weeks to Americans going back to, I think, in March or April, each one in stronger terms," Ross said. ‘Leave now. Leave immediately.'"

Those warnings, he said, included some of the strongest language he'd seen in his career at the State Department. But, he said, some did not heed the messages.

"People chose not to leave," Wilson said. "That's their business. That's their right."

"We regret now that many find themselves in a position that they'd rather not be in and we are determined to try to help," he continued.


Critics excoriated Wilson for his remarks, accusing him of being too callous in the midst of the crisis.


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"This is a disgraceful message from the callous Biden administration," foreign policy analyst Nile Gardiner tweeted. "Truly heartless."



Many more were offended the administration had apparently shifted to "victim-blaming."


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Two explosions were reported in Afghanistan Thursday, one outside the Abbey Gate at the Kabul airport, and another at the Baron Hotel, where Americans have gathered in the past for rescue and evacuation. At least 12 U.S. servicemembers were killed in the blasts, according to U.S. officials. Secretary of State Antony Blinken has said about 1,500 Americans remain in the embattled country.

President Joe Biden has been similarly condemned for behavior critics have called "bizarre" or "flippant" in recent days when pressed on the Taliban takeover in Afghanistan. On more than one occasion, after giving remarks on the foreign policy disaster, he's walked out on the press before taking any questions. This week, he said the Aug. 31 deadline of getting Americans and Afghan allies out of the country was contingent on the Taliban's continued cooperation with ongoing evacuation efforts.

Cortney O'Brien is an Editor at Fox News. Follow her on Twitter at @obrienc2.

[Ranger99]

The damned bureaucrats will do
anything to deflect blame.
JMHO- if anybody was staying of
their own volition, I'd think it would
be because they're trying to help
indigenous personnel that have
been invaluable as interpreters and
strategists to keep them from being
tortured and killed after the US
abandons ship. There was much
the same going on in vietnam
when the US government was pulling
out. I've heard/read of a few American
military officers that wouldn't abandon
their indigenous staff in vietnam
because they well knew the fate that
awaited after the American military
was gone. One had bought/stolen/
captured some boats at his own peril
in order to evacuate his staff and
their family members

[teamnelson]

All the civil authorities overseeing this debacle have blamed someone else: aghanis, Taliban, American people, Trump, Russia probably too. Kinda makes the whole, the buck stops with me, ring hollow.

[gene_225]

Why, when warned repeatedly, people didn't get out earlier is a valid question. Just like people who are told to evacuate before a flood or wild fire and still don't/won't. Seems to me a lot is on their own head. Sorry, but when the teacher warns that anyone talking will stay after school; if you talk you shouldn't be surprised when you have to stay after school.

[teamnelson]

Why, when warned repeatedly, people didn't get out earlier is a valid question. Just like people who are told to evacuate before a flood or wild fire and still don't/won't. Seems to me a lot is on their own head. Sorry, but when the teacher warns that anyone talking will stay after school; if you talk you shouldn't be surprised when you have to stay after school.

Fair and yet the office to coordinate evacuation was one of the first offices removed in country. And with the US military pulled out before civilians, safe passage was unattainable. Do you knowingly skyline yourself to run the Taliban gauntlet with no protection, to the point of concentration? Or do you bug in and hope for a break? Most folks on the internet claim that bugging in is always what you should do. Why bug out knowingly into chaos? With all eyes on Kabul I wouldn’t doubt many are finding other ways out. And then there’s the loyalty angle … I know people who have devoted 20 years to a dream. Hard to walk away from that dream.

It also appears many were told not to evacuate and then it got too dangerous too evacuate.

[ironglow]

.
  TN;

  We have been there for 2 decades.  Strong friendships have been built during that time.  Can you explain for the guys, just how the "shared danger" brings the troops and the interpreter closer.

     Army and Marine units grow into a brotherhood through the shared danger, I guess it is hard for some to grasp how an interpreter can be included.

  Can you shed some light on that?

  Are there Afghan/American marriage and dependents, waiting for transportation?

[powderman]

Why, when warned repeatedly, people didn't get out earlier is a valid question. Just like people who are told to evacuate before a flood or wild fire and still don't/won't. Seems to me a lot is on their own head. Sorry, but when the teacher warns that anyone talking will stay after school; if you talk you shouldn't be surprised when you have to stay after school.

Good questions. WHY?? Being stupid should hurt but not kill. Innocents are dying because Americans didn't leave when they were told to. More of our soldiers were killed today that could have been home instead of staying to try and protect them. CHARLIE. 

[gene_225]

Why, when warned repeatedly, people didn't get out earlier is a valid question. Just like people who are told to evacuate before a flood or wild fire and still don't/won't. Seems to me a lot is on their own head. Sorry, but when the teacher warns that anyone talking will stay after school; if you talk you shouldn't be surprised when you have to stay after school.

Good questions. WHY?? Being stupid should hurt but not kill. Innocents are dying because Americans didn't leave when they were told to. More of our soldiers were killed today that could have been home instead of staying to try and protect them. CHARLIE. 

"Being stupid should hurt but not kill."

Ideally. But that's not life in this world we live in. If I drive 150 mph through downtown at noon on a week day, I'll probably end up killing myself and others. It isn't right, but it's a foreseeable and stupid outcome. And it's on my head. Just like when Israel disobeyed God's direct orders in the Old Testament, the punishment was on their heads (see the book of Judges).

[Dee]

Being stupid does kill. The real victims in my opinion are 12 Marines, and 1 Navy medic. Americans in Afghanistan were told to get out.
20 year friendships should be weighed with common sense.
It would also seem to me, that living in a violent theocracy driven country for 20 years, or 20 days would make it abundantly clear that America's 20 year lie wasn't working.
As someone said, if the authorities said: get out there is a dangerous hurricane coming, you best get out. And they do, every year.

I don't agree with how Benedict Biden has created this disaster, but many of these American civilian are trapped because of their own poor judgment, or as was said. Stupidity.

So Charlie, with all due respect.  I've seen stupid people get killed many times, for being, or acting stupid.   

[teamnelson]

.
  TN;

  We have been there for 2 decades.  Strong friendships have been built during that time.  Can you explain for the guys, just how the "shared danger" brings the troops and the interpreter closer.

     Army and Marine units grow into a brotherhood through the shared danger, I guess it is hard for some to grasp how an interpreter can be included.

  Can you shed some light on that?

  Are there Afghan/American marriage and dependents, waiting for transportation?

Its hard to explain something to folks who've never had it. Living, fighting, losing people together, forges a relationship you don't get in an office, on a ball field, etc. And it doesn't care where you were born.

The hard thing for many to grasp is that many Americans were in Afghanistan for the nation building - not security. Thousands of Americans went there to help hospitals, education, local government initiatives, engineering projects. The military provided security for those operations, and some contractors as well. But nation building wasn't just to build a military, it was to build a nation inside the security of a military, and all that that entails, and none of which they had before us. And many Americans in that capacity put down roots ... just like many Americans who helped rebuild Germany, France or Japan, Philippines after WWII, or Korea ... Many who went there in uniform, came home, got out, and went back in civilian clothes, and not all with a gun. Some went back as missionaries if you can imagine. So there are most likely marriages, and children at this point.

But even in that case ... State told them not to evacuate when it was still safe to travel. Once Kabul was taken it became unsafe to travel, and the State messages to the people have been confusing at best. When we lived in the Djibouti/Somalia area, we were in regular comms with State dept, they knew everyone in the area, and we were very attentive. But I also had made relationships in the local community and had a back up way out if needed. In Afghanistan, when they pulled the coordination office, they pulled the life line that many had relied upon. Completely bungled, confusion does not cause confidence. If I were in Afghanistan now, I may be inclined to trust who I know locally over the keystone cops who seem to trust the Taliban as allies right now, and have already given them my information to include pictures.

[O-mega]

Many were told to make preparations to leave, that Aug 31 was a deadline, by my calendar they still have 4 days.  I have said it before, and I will say it again, security should be the last ones to be wheels up, some how the motto of First in Last Out was missed in translation.  While I understand the frustration of the Ambassador,  he needs to shoulder the blame for the administrations very botched handling of the withdrawal. 

[Dee]

True! Afghanistan has been known for centuries as "The Graveyard of Empires".

I agree with TN I suppose with pretty much everything he said, and I have socialized, even lived with officers and their families, and buried some along my 20+ year career. I've had civilians I worked with that were killed because of the environment they chose to live in. So I get that part of the equation.

But maybe my survival was partly due to "situational awareness", along with ability, and on several occasions, it just wasn't my time.

Living in a hostile theocracy based society, and in this case, an entire country, that hasn't shown any desire to change in hundreds of years, would seem apparently obvious to even the most "ideological" American social worker, contractor, or whomever.

Recognizing something for what it is, rather than what you wish it was, or want it to be, should be at the forefront of "stay or go". I.E. "Situational awareness".

Common sense says, as soon as the United States government announced the pullout date, I would have been using my knowledge, and those resources, and contacts TN mentioned, to get the hell out of that hundreds of years old hell hole.

But that's just me.

[ironglow]

.
  TN;

  We have been there for 2 decades.  Strong friendships have been built during that time.  Can you explain for the guys, just how the "shared danger" brings the troops and the interpreter closer.

     Army and Marine units grow into a brotherhood through the shared danger, I guess it is hard for some to grasp how an interpreter can be included.

  Can you shed some light on that?

  Are there Afghan/American marriage and dependents, waiting for transportation?

Its hard to explain something to folks who've never had it. Living, fighting, losing people together, forges a relationship you don't get in an office, on a ball field, etc. And it doesn't care where you were born.

The hard thing for many to grasp is that many Americans were in Afghanistan for the nation building - not security. Thousands of Americans went there to help hospitals, education, local government initiatives, engineering projects. The military provided security for those operations, and some contractors as well. But nation building wasn't just to build a military, it was to build a nation inside the security of a military, and all that that entails, and none of which they had before us. And many Americans in that capacity put down roots ... just like many Americans who helped rebuild Germany, France or Japan, Philippines after WWII, or Korea ... Many who went there in uniform, came home, got out, and went back in civilian clothes, and not all with a gun. Some went back as missionaries if you can imagine. So there are most likely marriages, and children at this point.

But even in that case ... State told them not to evacuate when it was still safe to travel. Once Kabul was taken it became unsafe to travel, and the State messages to the people have been confusing at best. When we lived in the Djibouti/Somalia area, we were in regular comms with State dept, they knew everyone in the area, and we were very attentive. But I also had made relationships in the local community and had a back up way out if needed. In Afghanistan, when they pulled the coordination office, they pulled the life line that many had relied upon. Completely bungled, confusion does not cause confidence. If I were in Afghanistan now, I may be inclined to trust who I know locally over the keystone cops who seem to trust the Taliban as allies right now, and have already given them my information to include pictures.

  Thank you TN;  It really helps to get some clarification from somebody who " has been there..done that !"

   ...And with your MOS, I suspect you likely have a better grasp of the 'big picture', than do many other officers.

[teamnelson]

Some of my students this week (very senior) literally just left Afghanistan in March working on the very senior staff. As we talked about it this AM i learned some things that validated my suspicions on some things.

People were not told to leave Aug 31. The office coordinating the extraction was among the first to pull out at State who took over the plan earlier this year. American civilians were told to wait for further instructions. Then told to stay home as the Taliban took over. Now they’re told to figure out on their own how to go through hostile territory. Nope not blaming them at all.

Also it’s not been a theocracy for 20 years. Up until May the Taliban were boxed in. We shut down Bagram first, under civilian orders, giving the Taliban free range to begin their take overs. But until then our American civilians working in schools, hospitals, churches etc enjoyed relative security and safety. And the plan in place until Feb had solid phase lines to ensure the continuity of that peace. May was a goal not a deadline negotiated with terrorists. May was what we worked out with the Afghan government but contingent on many things before we would pull out entirely.

Not arguing we should be there. Just pointing out that this isn’t the fall of Saigon.

[Dee]

Well, I guess this is where we'll disagree. Perhaps the people working with the cooperating Afghans "thought" they had "rehabilitated Afghanistan", but the proof is in the pudding.

Afghanistan was, is, and always has been a "war lord society". Nation builders are always ideological, and seem to never realize that revolution is never imported, it always comes from within. The United States government tried for 20 years to convince American taxpayers, and Afghans things in Afghanistan have changed.

The majority of the Afghan population has no stomach for change, and it took less than a  month to erase 20 years of "nation building" and pseudo democracy.

In other words. History repeats itself, and some refuse to learn from it, or see it.

[ironglow]

From TN; 

  " Also it’s not been a theocracy for 20 years. Up until May the Taliban were boxed in. We shut down Bagram first, under civilian orders, giving the Taliban free range to begin their take overs. But until then our American civilians working in schools, hospitals, churches etc enjoyed relative security and safety. And the plan in place until Feb had solid phase lines to ensure the continuity of that peace. May was a goal not a deadline negotiated with terrorists. May was what we worked out with the Afghan government but contingent on many things before we would pull out entirely.

Not arguing we should be there. Just pointing out that this isn’t the fall of Saigon."

   That is enlightening..  I realize we cannot "nation build", by trying to change their culture or religion, but it does sound like there is a great disparity between everyday Afghans and the Taliban.

  It also appears that there was some small accomplishment in this effort.  Obviously, when the Biden administration, abruptly shrank back across the country....and then abandoned Bagram, where the much needed air support came from..even the lowest ranked Afghan soldier could read the tea leaves, and decided to try to melt into his old tribal scene , hoping the Taliban would not find him.
  I see Pres Trump as planning to make the American exit in an orderly fashion, while leaving the Afghan government with an intact military....and a fighting chance...

  Am I anywhere near correct?

[teamnelson]

The Taliban occupied a very small corner of Afghanistan as recently as late April, early May. They were not in control, had no power or influence, and were largely hiding in Pakistan. Everyday Afghans were going to school, some to church, working, raising families, and enjoying sports, robotics teams, and liberty ... and had been for over a decade. Many children and teenagers in Afghanistan right now grew up only knowing the Taliban as a far away problem, that used to be a threat. That Afghanistan, the Afghan government we've been supporting, was not a theocracy at all; it was a democracy with elections, voting, women's rights, religious liberty. And they had a taste of it for a large chunk of 20 years. It struggled because of tribalism, which is more important to Afghanis than Islam. As far as Islam goes, the average Afghani is only in Islam because their tribe is ... but their loyalty is to the tribe first, last and always. In that environment, many Americans were there with missions organizations, NGOs, and our own government, engaged in building up the structures of a democracy. What few military folks we had left were running operations way out on the fringes to keep the Taliban far away.

As I understood it, the previous plan was on a phase out, removing everyone but military in the early phases, maintaining support to the Afghan military as they gradually took over the same missions of keeping the Taliban at the border. And we would taper off until they were confidently able to keep the Taliban isolated. Why the plan was changed ... well the philosophy of leadership appears to have been, whatever the last guy did, do the opposite. And now, after the Taliban took control, now Afghanistan is under a theocracy.

[Mule 11]

Funny how the new leadership? Cancelled everything the Trump Leadership did that they could and then say it was Trumps plan to withdraw from Afghanistan that is the current problem. I guess some of the people will believe anything.

[Ranger99]

Funny how the new leadership? Cancelled everything the Trump Leadership did that they could and then say it was Trumps plan to withdraw from Afghanistan that is the current problem. I guess some of the people will believe anything.

You forgot to add Bush's fault 

[powderman]

Funny how the new leadership? Cancelled everything the Trump Leadership did that they could and then say it was Trumps plan to withdraw from Afghanistan that is the current problem. I guess some of the people will believe anything.

You forgot to add Bush's fault 

EVILJOE IS BLAMING PRESIDENT TRUMP. WHODATHUNKIT???

[Ranger99]

Funny how the new leadership? Cancelled everything the Trump Leadership did that they could and then say it was Trumps plan to withdraw from Afghanistan that is the current problem. I guess some of the people will believe anything.

You forgot to add Bush's fault 

EVILJOE IS BLAMING PRESIDENT TRUMP. WHODATHUNKIT???

Well they probably just haven't got to
Bush yet

[Dee]

It is GW Bushs' fault. The original plan was to go into Afghanistan and wipe out al Qaeda and the terrorists training camps then leave. That was accomplished in less than 20 months.
George W Bush and Dickhead Cheney decided to turn it into a "nation building" venture.