Author Topic: Statistics don't support scary stories about concealed-carry  (Read 673 times)

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Offline Dali Llama

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Statistics don't support scary stories about concealed-carry
« on: March 08, 2004, 04:32:39 PM »
Point of View by DR. RONALD BRACE

Statistics don't support scary stories about concealed-carry

The Feb. 13 Point of View column by Dr. Greg Bachhuber -- "Concealed-carry laws place guns into hands of unskilled people" -- (and your newspaper's editorial as well) contains all the misinformation and mistrust that every opponent of concealed-carry believe. The problem is it just isn't true.

The fact that concealed-carry laws have a 10-plus-year record that is open and available to the public in most states refutes the worries he expressed. The consensus is that at worst there is no harm done by these laws, and at best crime decreases, up to 8 percent in a few studies.

Let's review Bachhuber's. Anyone can get a concealed-carry permit with minimal training. This is true as long as you can legally purchase a handgun, take the course and pay the fees (about $200).

The vast majority of individuals getting their concealed-carry permit have years of experience with firearms. The point is that they are taking responsibility for their own self-defense, and with it comes a tremendous responsibility to know how to handle the firearm correctly as well as when it is wise to use it.

I know of two people who had no firearm experience who have gotten their permits to carry. They did this as a political act to show how easy it is to get a permit. They do not carry. Should they frighten me? No. I do not believe the fact that they have a permit will suddenly give them visions of being in the Wild West and shooting up the streets. And if they do carry, the chance of them having to use a gun in self-defense in a public place is quite low.

Yet should we as a society decide that they should be disarmed and risk not being able to defend themselves? To attempt to compare the training police get in the use of deadly force and that of a civilian is like comparing apples and oranges. The police have a duty to carry their firearms and protect the public (and, incidentally, such protection does not extend to any individual but to the community as a whole, as has been upheld several times by the U.S. Supreme Court).

Police should be held to a much higher standard concerning defensive shootings, yet routinely are not. Police are given three days of administrative leave before being interviewed about the events. I can promise that if a civilian is involved in a defensive shooting, they will not get three days to settle their nerves and collect their thoughts. They will be grilled for hours and will most likely end up behind bars for at least a short time.

And if Bachhuber wishes to talk about suicides with guns (truly a tragic number, yet firearms bear no relationship to suicides in most studies on the subject except in the elderly population), how many concealed-carry permit holders in the United States committed suicide while carrying legally in the past five years? How about the past year? Any that you've heard of in the past two weeks? None have been reported in any of these time frames. Yet at least two police officers have committed suicide with a firearm in the past two weeks, and one of them killed his wife first with his service gun.

Statistics like these could be used to say that the police shouldn't be allowed guns -- ridiculous. The studies that Bachhuber claims show how dangerous guns in the home are have been proven false several times. The same study showing a certain increase in household members being shot if they have guns in their home can also show that in homes without firearms, there is a 300 percent higher likelihood of being killed at home compared to homes with firearms.

Studies like these take into consideration robberies and drug shootings involving even the most casual acquaintances, and people who brought the gun used to shoot someone into the home as "having a gun in the home." If you invite a friend over for a game, and he brings someone you barely know who has a gun on him, and that person shoots you, you are listed as having a gun in the home. It is often easy to find the numbers you want when a study is selective in its subject group.

Firearm injuries and deaths are a tragedy. As an emergency physician myself, both Bachhuber and I have seen our share of gun tragedies. Our difference is that Bachhuber blames the gun. I blame the shooter (or their parents in the case of childhood accidents and shootings). He believes that removing guns from society would reduce gun injuries and crime. I know this is not the case. Firearm ownership is part of the fundamental right of self-defense, not a privilege granted by the government. It is up to us as individuals to exercise that right in an honorable fashion. If every gun owner did this, then the incidents of accidental shootings and suicides, and perhaps even violent crime, will fall.


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RONALD BRACE, M.D., of Elk River, Minn., is a board-certified emergency physician practicing at the Cambridge Medical Center in Cambridge, Minn. He has worked at emergency departments in the Twin Cities, Colorado, North Carolina and Texas and was part of the support forces in Bosnia in 1997-98.
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Offline jh45gun

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Statistics don't support scary stories abou
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2004, 05:51:13 PM »
Saw this in the Duluth Sun paper. Good article amoungst at bunch of liberal rubble. Too bad a lot of his fellow Physicians do not feel the same way. But then the medical field is no different than the rest of society some are for and some against.  This fellow should be commended for writeing a good article. Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline BamBams

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Statistics don't support scary stories abou
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2004, 05:54:23 PM »
I don't know how many people are aware of this FACT but.......

Statistics are showing  that the average CCW permit holder is a better law abiding citizen than the average law enforcement officer.
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Offline jh45gun

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Statistics don't support scary stories abou
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2004, 05:58:55 PM »
There are a lot of cops and other leo's that do the job they were hired for and should get all our thanks!! There are also the ones that I think you are talking about bambam that we have all seen abuse the power given to them! Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline BamBams

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Statistics don't support scary stories abou
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2004, 06:26:22 PM »
Just passing on statistical "averages" Jim.....ya'll can draw yer own conclusions.   :lol:  I'll try and get you guys some sources on this soon.
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Offline Dali Llama

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Statistics don't support scary stories abou
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2004, 02:22:18 AM »
Quote from: jh45gun
There are a lot of cops and other leo's that do the job they were hired for and should get all our thanks!!
That certainly be true, say Dali Llama. :D
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Offline Major

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Statistics don't support scary stories abou
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2004, 09:39:52 AM »
Quote from: BamBams
Just passing on statistical "averages" Jim.....ya'll can draw yer own conclusions.   :lol:  I'll try and get you guys some sources on this soon.


And here are some more statistics to think about.

-----------------------------------------

A FEW FACTS:

a. The number of physicians in the United States is 700,000

b. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000.

c. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (US Dept. of Health &Human Services)


THINK ABOUT THIS:

a. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000 (yes, eighty-million!).

b. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is 1,500.

c. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.   Statistically, doctors are about 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.


FACT:

NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS A DOCTOR.

Alert your friends to this threat. We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand.   As a public health measure -- I have withheld the statistics on lawyers for fear that the shock could cause people to
seek medical attention.

----------------------------------------

So you see...  many doctors argue the gun issue to draw attention away from themselves.
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Offline Bikenut

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Statistics don't support scary stories abou
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2004, 03:13:05 AM »
Sadly, it is impossible to statisticly prove something that didn't happen. There are no figures available on how many crimes didn't happen because the would be criminal knew their intended victim had a gun. I suspect the vast majority of incidents where a gun was introduced into a bad situation ended with the gun never having been fired... simply shown to the would be criminal by the would be victim. The mere presence of the gun ended the confrontation.

And even more difficult to show statisticly is how many crimes didn't happen... and the intended victim never even knew he/she had been targeted by a criminal... just because the criminal knew the victim had a gun so the criminal went elsewhere looking for an easier target.

I carry concealed in public. I allow my gun to "print"... or show through my clothing to some degree. I don't make it obvious I have a gun but I'm not hiding it so well that it is impossible to tell there is a gun there. Yes, people have noticed. I've noted the reaction from folks when they realize there is a gun on my person. Most people just note the fact and never skip a beat in the conversation. Some pause for a moment, then go back to normal. Some end our conversation as soon as possible and go elsewhere. Those are the reactions from "normal" people. Several times people who were scruffy and rough in appearance, were behaving oddly, and gave me that feeling that perhaps this person has criminal intentions.... have noted the imprint of a gun in my clothing and suddenly decided they had an important appointment somewhere else. One fellow actually instantly turned around and walked quickly away. Were these perceived "bad guys" actually intending me harm? I don't know and never will know but the important thing is that once the gun was noticed no harm befell me.

I also live in a very bad neighborhood. Many of my close neighbors have been burglarized. During daytime hours too. One lady was at home taking a nap when the bad guys broke in. I wear a holstered gun in plain view inside my house and outside. My gun is plainly visible when I go to get the mail, mow the lawn, sit on the porch.... what ever I'm doing outside. All my neighbors know I carry a gun. Passing patrolling police know I have a gun. Bad guys cruising around looking for someplace to break into know I have a gun. And they know the gun isn't locked up somewhere, it is right there on my hip. Has this very visible gun prevented my home from being broken into or have I just been lucky? I don't know, and never will know. But this I do know for fact....... no one has even tried to break into my home.

I suspect that if it were possible to show statisticly all the crimes that didn't happen because a gun was present the numbers would prove beyond a doubt, even to anti gun people, that guns in the hands of law abiding citizens most certainly, emphaticly, irrefutably, and most plainly, does prevent crime.

Now, let me explain that I don't think I'm a Rambo wannabe, nor do I think I'm cool because I have a gun so I'm going to show the world how cool I am by showing them the gun, nor do I have any intent to harm anyone (quite the opposite since I pray I never have to use my gun.. never, ever have to use it.) And while it is nice to have a criminal be taken by surprise because a gun is very well hidden I think it is much nicer to not have the confrontation with the criminal in the first place. I firmly believe that an ounce of prevention is worth tons of cure.

While surprising a criminal with a hidden gun while the criminal is trying to do harm is gratifying and gives a feeling of "one upmanship" the results of a violent confrontation are still there. Those can range from just soiled underwear to legal consequences. Having the criminal file a complaint and have ME arrested because I had a gun and/or sueing ME because I had a gun still makes me the criminal's victim. And it subjects me to untold hassle, considerable expense, and possibly a criminal record of my own because I defended myself against a criminal! To my mind it is far better to not have the confrontation in the first place... so if a criminal changes his/her mind about victimizing me because they noticed a gun... the gun did it's job and I can go about my life not even knowing I had been targeted as a victim by a criminal.

One of the responsibilities of carrying a gun is to not allow a situation to escalate to where the gun needs to be used. Avoiding a confrontation where and when possible, by any means, is a legal responsibility of a person who carries a gun. If a criminal noticing my gun prevents a situation where I have to defend myself then I have upheld that responsibility by avoiding the situation entirely.
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