14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas! A "Speculation" Thread!

[Dee]

I have to believe there are ways to knock down a door, besides finding the janitor and taking his key. Had an 18 year old untrained POS in the room, with 19 fully trained cops outside. None of us were there, but looking at it through the eyes of common sense makes one question why it did take so long. Or are we not allowed to question something like this because they are cops? It appears that anyone here questioning the response from the police are getting ridiculed for doing so.  I've seen all kinds of opinions given on this forum on subjects where none of us were there, but it was always permissible to question or talk about it.  Now question the police, and its taboo.  In 40 minutes time I bet they could have found some citizens that knew how to shoot a firearm volunteer to go in.

I have to question if it was the Chief's decision not to go in and take the punk out, or did the order come from someone else above him.  After watching Antifi, and BLM burn and destroy so many cites while police forces watched them do it. I question everything. I truly believe this bunch of radical leftists that are running this country now will do anything to further their agenda. Seems they have no issue killing children in the womb. They have shown they will stop at nothing to keep that killing going. Including letting pro abortionists terrorize SC justices in their homes. Which is against the law.  Are kids in a classroom any different to them? 

I also have to wonder if its the SOP to not go in a building and get an active shooter. Especially if its one shooter in a classroom full of kids.  Yes none of us were there, but there are parents that were there speaking up to as what took place.

Very good post.
I've been in several schools and in every one the doors were made of heavy wood.
But the police have ARs or equivalent and could have splintered the door around the lock.
19 fully trained cops, yep no excuse.

In my own town of Morrow Georgia, nearly all the cops have college degrees, I know this because we are friends with the chief, a lieutenant and a sergeant, and my wife is a member of two city development committees.
We pay them well and they fight crime instead of terrorizing the citizenry with speed traps and other nonsense.
I fully believe that our chief would tell his men to go in and kill the shooter and save CHILDREN.

Yeah, shootin into a door with a 556, with kids on the other side of the door. BRILLIANT IDEA. Why didn't they just shoot up the door?

[BUGEYE]

I sure didn't realize how many people were
willing to give up their rights and agree with
all the calls for banning this and that and
mandatory registration and schooling and
limited ammunition purchases, and confiscation
etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

I'm also very surprised at those that don't want
to have some measure of control of psychotic
people that can't behave in a civilized manner
or the career criminals that won't behave regardless.

I guess it shows how many apathetic and politically
correct people there are these days
Many endorse the road to anarchy without even
realizing it.  A gated subdivision won't help any if
the S really did HTF.
Possums will eventually get your eggs and chickens
no matter where your chicken house is or however
remote your homestead is

Oh well.  . . . .

Yeah, I watched Fox interview a congressman tonight, (forgot his name) and he said that he owned guns but was willing to give up a little freedom to keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people.
That is dangerous talk, because if you give up a little freedom, the democrats will come for the rest of your freedoms.

[Ranger99]

Yeah
The wrong people running loose is
the entire problem
Bunch of enabling keeps psychos
and scumbag criminals out and about

[Dee]

Yeah
The wrong people running loose is
the entire problem
Bunch of enabling keeps psychos
and scumbag criminals out and about

The problem is, prosecutors not prosecuting. They turn'em loose, or plea'em down to a Misdemeanor, and give'em probation.

[Ranger99]

Yeah
The wrong people running loose is
the entire problem
Bunch of enabling keeps psychos
and scumbag criminals out and about

The problem is, prosecutors not prosecuting. They turn'em loose, or plea'em down to a Misdemeanor, and give'em probation.

Yessir exactly
That goes in the enabling bucket as well
Enabling by the justice system

[Dee]

The problem with government entities deciding mental competence, whether it be local  state, or federal,  it WILL ALWAYS  END UP GETTING ABUSED.

Your neighbor gets mad at you, and just happens to be friends with a city official, who has sway over the mental health board, and you lose your rights.

Living in a free society has its dangers. Giving that kinda power to government is giving up freedom,  in exchange for perceived safety.

Very bad idea.

[BUGEYE]

I have to believe there are ways to knock down a door, besides finding the janitor and taking his key. Had an 18 year old untrained POS in the room, with 19 fully trained cops outside. None of us were there, but looking at it through the eyes of common sense makes one question why it did take so long. Or are we not allowed to question something like this because they are cops? It appears that anyone here questioning the response from the police are getting ridiculed for doing so.  I've seen all kinds of opinions given on this forum on subjects where none of us were there, but it was always permissible to question or talk about it.  Now question the police, and its taboo.  In 40 minutes time I bet they could have found some citizens that knew how to shoot a firearm volunteer to go in.

I have to question if it was the Chief's decision not to go in and take the punk out, or did the order come from someone else above him.  After watching Antifi, and BLM burn and destroy so many cites while police forces watched them do it. I question everything. I truly believe this bunch of radical leftists that are running this country now will do anything to further their agenda. Seems they have no issue killing children in the womb. They have shown they will stop at nothing to keep that killing going. Including letting pro abortionists terrorize SC justices in their homes. Which is against the law.  Are kids in a classroom any different to them? 

I also have to wonder if its the SOP to not go in a building and get an active shooter. Especially if its one shooter in a classroom full of kids.  Yes none of us were there, but there are parents that were there speaking up to as what took place.

Very good post.
I've been in several schools and in every one the doors were made of heavy wood.
But the police have ARs or equivalent and could have splintered the door around the lock.
19 fully trained cops, yep no excuse.

In my own town of Morrow Georgia, nearly all the cops have college degrees, I know this because we are friends with the chief, a lieutenant and a sergeant, and my wife is a member of two city development committees.
We pay them well and they fight crime instead of terrorizing the citizenry with speed traps and other nonsense.
I fully believe that our chief would tell his men to go in and kill the shooter and save CHILDREN.

Yeah, shootin into a door with a 556, with kids on the other side of the door. BRILLIANT IDEA. Why didn't they just shoot up the door?

Yeah I’m sure the kids were all grouped around the door.
You can bet that the teachers had them away from there.
How many kids died while the cops stood in the hallway pissing their pants and doing nothing??

[Dee]

I have to believe there are ways to knock down a door, besides finding the janitor and taking his key. Had an 18 year old untrained POS in the room, with 19 fully trained cops outside. None of us were there, but looking at it through the eyes of common sense makes one question why it did take so long. Or are we not allowed to question something like this because they are cops? It appears that anyone here questioning the response from the police are getting ridiculed for doing so.  I've seen all kinds of opinions given on this forum on subjects where none of us were there, but it was always permissible to question or talk about it.  Now question the police, and its taboo.  In 40 minutes time I bet they could have found some citizens that knew how to shoot a firearm volunteer to go in.

I have to question if it was the Chief's decision not to go in and take the punk out, or did the order come from someone else above him.  After watching Antifi, and BLM burn and destroy so many cites while police forces watched them do it. I question everything. I truly believe this bunch of radical leftists that are running this country now will do anything to further their agenda. Seems they have no issue killing children in the womb. They have shown they will stop at nothing to keep that killing going. Including letting pro abortionists terrorize SC justices in their homes. Which is against the law.  Are kids in a classroom any different to them? 

I also have to wonder if its the SOP to not go in a building and get an active shooter. Especially if its one shooter in a classroom full of kids.  Yes none of us were there, but there are parents that were there speaking up to as what took place.

Very good post.
I've been in several schools and in every one the doors were made of heavy wood.
But the police have ARs or equivalent and could have splintered the door around the lock.
19 fully trained cops, yep no excuse.

In my own town of Morrow Georgia, nearly all the cops have college degrees, I know this because we are friends with the chief, a lieutenant and a sergeant, and my wife is a member of two city development committees.
We pay them well and they fight crime instead of terrorizing the citizenry with speed traps and other nonsense.
I fully believe that our chief would tell his men to go in and kill the shooter and save CHILDREN.

Yeah, shootin into a door with a 556, with kids on the other side of the door. BRILLIANT IDEA. Why didn't they just shoot up the door?

Yeah I’m sure the kids were all grouped around the door.
You can bet that the teachers had them away from there.
How many kids died while the cops stood in the hallway pissing their pants and doing nothing??

This has been a very informative exchange on this topic. I have a much better idea of your thought process, and feel like I better understand you.

[BUGEYE]

I have to believe there are ways to knock down a door, besides finding the janitor and taking his key. Had an 18 year old untrained POS in the room, with 19 fully trained cops outside. None of us were there, but looking at it through the eyes of common sense makes one question why it did take so long. Or are we not allowed to question something like this because they are cops? It appears that anyone here questioning the response from the police are getting ridiculed for doing so.  I've seen all kinds of opinions given on this forum on subjects where none of us were there, but it was always permissible to question or talk about it.  Now question the police, and its taboo.  In 40 minutes time I bet they could have found some citizens that knew how to shoot a firearm volunteer to go in.

I have to question if it was the Chief's decision not to go in and take the punk out, or did the order come from someone else above him.  After watching Antifi, and BLM burn and destroy so many cites while police forces watched them do it. I question everything. I truly believe this bunch of radical leftists that are running this country now will do anything to further their agenda. Seems they have no issue killing children in the womb. They have shown they will stop at nothing to keep that killing going. Including letting pro abortionists terrorize SC justices in their homes. Which is against the law.  Are kids in a classroom any different to them? 

I also have to wonder if its the SOP to not go in a building and get an active shooter. Especially if its one shooter in a classroom full of kids.  Yes none of us were there, but there are parents that were there speaking up to as what took place.

Very good post.
I've been in several schools and in every one the doors were made of heavy wood.
But the police have ARs or equivalent and could have splintered the door around the lock.
19 fully trained cops, yep no excuse.

In my own town of Morrow Georgia, nearly all the cops have college degrees, I know this because we are friends with the chief, a lieutenant and a sergeant, and my wife is a member of two city development committees.
We pay them well and they fight crime instead of terrorizing the citizenry with speed traps and other nonsense.
I fully believe that our chief would tell his men to go in and kill the shooter and save CHILDREN.

Yeah, shootin into a door with a 556, with kids on the other side of the door. BRILLIANT IDEA. Why didn't they just shoot up the door?

Yeah I’m sure the kids were all grouped around the door.
You can bet that the teachers had them away from there.
How many kids died while the cops stood in the hallway pissing their pants and doing nothing??

This has been a very informative exchange on this topic. I have a much better idea of your thought process, and feel like I better understand you.

Yep, and I understand yours better too.

[Dee]

I have to believe there are ways to knock down a door, besides finding the janitor and taking his key. Had an 18 year old untrained POS in the room, with 19 fully trained cops outside. None of us were there, but looking at it through the eyes of common sense makes one question why it did take so long. Or are we not allowed to question something like this because they are cops? It appears that anyone here questioning the response from the police are getting ridiculed for doing so.  I've seen all kinds of opinions given on this forum on subjects where none of us were there, but it was always permissible to question or talk about it.  Now question the police, and its taboo.  In 40 minutes time I bet they could have found some citizens that knew how to shoot a firearm volunteer to go in.

I have to question if it was the Chief's decision not to go in and take the punk out, or did the order come from someone else above him.  After watching Antifi, and BLM burn and destroy so many cites while police forces watched them do it. I question everything. I truly believe this bunch of radical leftists that are running this country now will do anything to further their agenda. Seems they have no issue killing children in the womb. They have shown they will stop at nothing to keep that killing going. Including letting pro abortionists terrorize SC justices in their homes. Which is against the law.  Are kids in a classroom any different to them? 

I also have to wonder if its the SOP to not go in a building and get an active shooter. Especially if its one shooter in a classroom full of kids.  Yes none of us were there, but there are parents that were there speaking up to as what took place.

Very good post.
I've been in several schools and in every one the doors were made of heavy wood.
But the police have ARs or equivalent and could have splintered the door around the lock.
19 fully trained cops, yep no excuse.

In my own town of Morrow Georgia, nearly all the cops have college degrees, I know this because we are friends with the chief, a lieutenant and a sergeant, and my wife is a member of two city development committees.
We pay them well and they fight crime instead of terrorizing the citizenry with speed traps and other nonsense.
I fully believe that our chief would tell his men to go in and kill the shooter and save CHILDREN.

Yeah, shootin into a door with a 556, with kids on the other side of the door. BRILLIANT IDEA. Why didn't they just shoot up the door?

Yeah I’m sure the kids were all grouped around the door.
You can bet that the teachers had them away from there.
How many kids died while the cops stood in the hallway pissing their pants and doing nothing??

This has been a very informative exchange on this topic. I have a much better idea of your thought process, and feel like I better understand you.

Yep, and I understand yours better too.

Well, sumthin has been accomplished. 

[BUGEYE]

https://youtu.be/1Em71nMd_64

Interesting interview.

[Lloyd Smale]

you do not breach a door with a 556. It probably could be done but ive never seen anyone trained to breach a door with a 556. Kind of shows your inexperience. Im sure though there was a 12 guage or 5 on scene that are decent door breaching weapons and police that were trained to use them for that. I all comes back to back seat quarterbacking. Why would you even make that comment when you dont have a clue. Now think about it logically. Not only could a bullet go through the door and take out another person. Something we didnt concern ourselves with in training because we didnt deal with hostages. But when you start shooting that door with an anemic 556 that would probably take a mag for every hinge dont you think the shooter would hear all that shooting and panic and step up his game and shoot more. Door breaching has to be FAST. Purpose of it is to bust down the door quickly before the bad guy has a chance to react. Also reminds me of a bs western where the good guys roll over a wagon and use it as cover against 45 colts. Would you hide behind a wooden wagon. Standing in front of a door for 5 minutes trying to blast the hinges with a 22 cal gun would get you killed in a minute. All that idiot would have to do was open up on the door your standing in front of. Its why breaching isnt even done very often with a 12 gauge. Its done with shape charges and i doubt there was shape charges on scene. Spreading this kind of bs is what feeds those anti cop liberals. Please talk about what you know. Which if most cases is little to none.

[Lloyd Smale]

How many kids died while the cops stood in the hallway pissing their pants and doing nothing??

All i can say is WOW! You must really hate police officers to make a statement like that. Sounds like some trash comming out of a black man from NYC or out of harris's mouth.

[Dee]

you do not breach a door with a 556. It probably could be done but ive never seen anyone trained to breach a door with a 556. Kind of shows your inexperience. Im sure though there was a 12 guage or 5 on scene that are decent door breaching weapons and police that were trained to use them for that. I all comes back to back seat quarterbacking. Why would you even make that comment when you dont have a clue. Now think about it logically. Not only could a bullet go through the door and take out another person. Something we didnt concern ourselves with in training because we didnt deal with hostages. But when you start shooting that door with an anemic 556 that would probably take a mag for every hinge dont you think the shooter would hear all that shooting and panic and step up his game and shoot more. Door breaching has to be FAST. Purpose of it is to bust down the door quickly before the bad guy has a chance to react. Also reminds me of a bs western where the good guys roll over a wagon and use it as cover against 45 colts. Would you hide behind a wooden wagon. Standing in front of a door for 5 minutes trying to blast the hinges with a 22 cal gun would get you killed in a minute. All that idiot would have to do was open up on the door your standing in front of. Its why breaching isnt even done very often with a 12 gauge. Its done with shape charges and i doubt there was shape charges on scene. Spreading this kind of bs is what feeds those anti cop liberals. Please talk about what you know. Which if most cases is little to none.

Thats pretty much how it would go Lloyd. For breaching wooden doors we used what was called an "Avon load". It was actually a 3" magnum 12 guage shotgun shell with a mixture of "copier media/plaster of Paris..
The barrel was held about an inch away from each hinge. It busted up the wood around the hinge but the load itself shattered to powder so know one on either side was hurt. It wasn't very fast, and the perp knew you were coming, and could shoot you through the door.

For outside metal doors a heavy steel hook attached to a chain, or strap was used. Haul off and try to drive the hook through the metal door skin, then a vehicle attached to the other end of the chain jerked the door out of its frame.
Far faster, usually used for dynamic entries.

82nd Airborne in Afghanistan and Iraq during house to house fighting for door breaching, often used a Mossberg shotgun with a pistol grip and birdshot on hinges, and locks. I have a picture of my son carrying his M4, and one of those shotguns.

Its no where nearly as easy to breach a door with any speed as many think. Todays heavier inside school classroom doors could be especially difficult.

[Dixie-Dude]

Found out this kid tortured and killed animals.  That was a red flag that the kid's ID should have been turned over to the cops to put on the no gun buy list.  I also think violent kids before they are 18 should be put on no gun buy list until they are 21 or older to prove they can go without any altercations after they become adults.  It will not hurt to put high capacity weapons on the handgun list to not be able to buy them until a person is 21.  Most of the gun crimes are committed by late teens and/or early 20's.  Delaying purchase until they are 21 is not outlawing anything, just taking precautions.  They can still buy a bolt or lever gun for hunting or a standard shotgun for hunting when they are 18. 

[Dee]

Found out this kid tortured and killed animals.  That was a red flag that the kid's ID should have been turned over to the cops to put on the no gun buy list.  I also think violent kids before they are 18 should be put on no gun buy list until they are 21 or older to prove they can go without any altercations after they become adults.  It will not hurt to put high capacity weapons on the handgun list to not be able to buy them until a person is 21.  Most of the gun crimes are committed by late teens and/or early 20's.  Delaying purchase until they are 21 is not outlawing anything, just taking precautions.  They can still buy a bolt or lever gun for hunting or a standard shotgun for hunting when they are 18.

I'm not for punishing all 18 year olds for what less than 1/10th of 1 percent do. Everyone is ignoring the Uvalde School Districts security failures, and focusing on police, and now GUN CONTROL.

Living in a "free society" requires constant vigilance buy ts citizenry.

What you're proposing is the NRA caving of a little at a time of our freedoms.

Those willing to trade their freedom for a little safety, deserve neither. Benjamin Franklin

The Uvalde Independent School District FAILED to provide a secure learning environment for the children.  THAT FACT IS TOTALLY BEING IGNORED.

People are blaming the police, and talking gun control for 18 year olds. We absolutely have the right president in office, and the right congress to get that done.

[Lloyd Smale]

totaly true. Let them ban ars or high capacity mags and even for 18 years old gives them a victory and will just embolden them to go after something else. Before you know it it will be guns that you own and love. Keep in mind that at one time the4440 , 45 colt 45acp 9mm 3040 craig the 7 and 8 mausers, 308, 6.5 swede, 12 gauge and yup even the grand old 3006 were military rounds. in its day the lever guns were the assault rifles and the indians thought it gave us an unfair advantage. Even if you look at guns the springfield, 700rem 70 win were sniper rifles made to kill humans at very long and impersonal ranges. Might as well ban peacemakers, 1911s, smith 38s, sigs, berrettas, glocks, 870s and mossberg 500s. Dont be so nieve to think im the only one that has thought about this. There all on a list somewhere. They wont stop till the only ones that have guns are the military they control and themselves and there body guards. Id bet everyone on this board has at least 2 of those guns i listed. some might even have sons or grandsons that are under 21 putting there ass on the line as soldiers or police officers.  Wouldnt that be ironic. A 20 year old police office HAS to carry at work but leave to go home and it would be a crime to have a high capacity mag or God forbid an ar15 to protect his family from the low lifes he put in jail last month that might just want revenge.

[BUGEYE]

How many kids died while the cops stood in the hallway pissing their pants and doing nothing??

All i can say is WOW! You must really hate police officers to make a statement like that. Sounds like some trash comming out of a black man from NYC or out of harris's mouth.

Lloyd, countless police officials and military brass have come out saying exactly what I've been saying.
And that is, the cops (19 in the hallway) allowed CHILDREN to die needlessly.
How many did he shoot for that 40 minutes while the cops did nothing, how many were wounded and bled out while they did nothing.
Many here have expressed the same thoughts as me but I'm the only one being called the ugly names, why is that??
NW_Hunter suggested the window and was shot down for it, a cop could have shot through the window but of course he might have been seen by the perp and we can't have that.
Three border patrol agents finally said we are going in and did it against orders and killed the shooter and saved some CHILDREN.  GOD bless them.
Why didn't the 19 cops do something like that??  Were they scared??  The border patrol was probably scared too but they did their duty and saved CHILDREN.
Were they thinking they would be chewed out or fired??   If that's the case then the lives of CHILDREN don't matter to them.

Those cops are paid by the people to do their jobs, and they failed miserably and 19 CHILDREN died.

So y'all think up some more ugly names to call me because every time you take up for cowards I'm gonna speak up,because CHILDREN were and are GOD's most precious.

[Lloyd Smale]

were you there? do you know every circumstance around what happened an how they reacted. Have you ever risked death for another person? Ill let God judge them. You seem to have all the answers without a bit of training or not one second on scene. Like was said. What would the libs be saying today if they charged in there guns blazing and killed an inocent child even if it was a ricochet or mistaken identity ect. Was there slow reaction i dont know. Best youll get out of me is a maybe. But NO military or police unit charges in without a plan. Like i said most heros are dead. Dont know about you but i dont expect a cop to die protecting me. Like also was said your quick to bash those cops but what about those teachers, the administration that said no armed teachers. The man who left the door open if there was even a policy to do it. A simple door lock would have stopped this. Would people have still died? Probably because when he got to the locked door he would have gotten flustered and went elsewhere. Maybe that time delay would have given the police time to apprehend him. What about those civiilains at the funeral home. It was texas. Id bet one of two of them were carrying. Maybe they could have slowed him down or stopped him. But the real bottom line in all of us is you and I werent there so we dont know. What we get are lib biased news and lib politicians telling us what happened and even police in higher up places that are willing to throw those cops to the wolves to save there own job. By sreading this crap even if it is true your playing right into the hands of the anti gun and socialist faction in this country. Beleive me they need a win and applaud you helping them. Just like they are caving traitors like mitch Mcconell. Maybe think about what your saying and what the repercussions down the road come from that kind of talk.     

[BUGEYE]

Lloyd, by your way of thinking, a jury can't convict a murderer because they were not there when the murder was committed.
Go back and actually listen to the interview link in post #166.

Apparently the border patrol had a quick plan hatched and executed it and saved some CHILDREN.

All while the cops (19 of them) stood in the hallway and shook in their boots.
It seems that the cops are exactly like you accuse me, unable or unwilling to save CHILDREN.

[Lloyd Smale]

but a jury relys on facts not on liberal biased news reporting. Little news flash for you. The border patrol trains extensively. Small town police forces cant afford to. My own sherrifs dept comes and gets 9mm and 40 ammo from me for qualifying and practice because there budget isnt big enough to buy extra ammo. They sure cant afford to do house breaching drills or send there officers to training centers to learn how to do it. Like that town they weight the chance of something happening against what they can afford. They dont have a blank check. Statements like the stood in a hall way shaking in there boots are just ignorant and prove you dont have a clue. Maybe biden found a new fan boy because thats just exactly what the left is trying to portray. You shame yourself with statements like that. 

Lloyd, by your way of thinking, a jury can't convict a murderer because they were not there when the murder was committed.
Go back and actually listen to the interview link in post #166.

Apparently the border patrol had a quick plan hatched and executed it and saved some CHILDREN.

All while the cops (19 of them) stood in the hallway and shook in their boots.
It seems that the cops are exactly like you accuse me, unable or unwilling to save CHILDREN.

[Lloyd Smale]

seems you have a deap rooted hatred of police. I have to wonder where that came from.

Lloyd, by your way of thinking, a jury can't convict a murderer because they were not there when the murder was committed.
Go back and actually listen to the interview link in post #166.

Apparently the border patrol had a quick plan hatched and executed it and saved some CHILDREN.

All while the cops (19 of them) stood in the hallway and shook in their boots.
It seems that the cops are exactly like you accuse me, unable or unwilling to save CHILDREN.

[BUGEYE]

seems you have a deap rooted hatred of police. I have to wonder where that came from.

Lloyd, by your way of thinking, a jury can't convict a murderer because they were not there when the murder was committed.
Go back and actually listen to the interview link in post #166.

Apparently the border patrol had a quick plan hatched and executed it and saved some CHILDREN.

All while the cops (19 of them) stood in the hallway and shook in their boots.
It seems that the cops are exactly like you accuse me, unable or unwilling to save CHILDREN.

In 1987 my wife and I were the victims of a crooked Henry county sheriff deputy and crooked county judge.
And in this modern day when everyone has a video camera in their pocket the police have, in many many cases, proven themselves to have egos so large that they think they can push people around.
Maybe your local police are better than the average, mine here in Morrow are better, and better educated.

One news item said that Uvalde had trained for active shooter shortly before this happened.
What does it cost for cops to go in and clear a building in a training session??

It all boils down to a couple of things.
1- they were scared.
2- blindly following orders to keep their jobs.

I'm sure that the three border patrol agents were scared too, but the lives of CHILDREN were at stake, so they disobeyed orders and killed the shooter.

Mathew chapter 18 lets us know how precious CHILDREN are to JESUS.
So I have zero respect for 19 cops who stood idly by and allowed them to die.

[BUGEYE]

Here is just one article telling of the extensive training Uvalde police have in active shooter situations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/26/us/mass-shooting-school-security.html

[BUGEYE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP1bbRgTkXk

[BUGEYE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAoKft59tf0

[ironglow]

I have to believe there are ways to knock down a door, besides finding the janitor and taking his key. Had an 18 year old untrained POS in the room, with 19 fully trained cops outside. None of us were there, but looking at it through the eyes of common sense makes one question why it did take so long. Or are we not allowed to question something like this because they are cops? It appears that anyone here questioning the response from the police are getting ridiculed for doing so.  I've seen all kinds of opinions given on this forum on subjects where none of us were there, but it was always permissible to question or talk about it.  Now question the police, and its taboo.  In 40 minutes time I bet they could have found some citizens that knew how to shoot a firearm volunteer to go in.

I have to question if it was the Chief's decision not to go in and take the punk out, or did the order come from someone else above him.  After watching Antifi, and BLM burn and destroy so many cites while police forces watched them do it. I question everything. I truly believe this bunch of radical leftists that are running this country now will do anything to further their agenda. Seems they have no issue killing children in the womb. They have shown they will stop at nothing to keep that killing going. Including letting pro abortionists terrorize SC justices in their homes. Which is against the law.  Are kids in a classroom any different to them? 

I also have to wonder if its the SOP to not go in a building and get an active shooter. Especially if its one shooter in a classroom full of kids.  Yes none of us were there, but there are parents that were there speaking up to as what took place.

  Excellent post DDZ !

  No way we could make a firm decision now..information too vague and contradictory.
 
   Some things that trouble me.. 1) The 78 minute delay?  2) As in your second paragraph..  How much meddling from politicians?  3) Did the police have proper training and equipment to effect an entrance?

    One over riding factor as I see it.. Whatever they had to do to enter that room, some will say that shooting through the door may injure or kill a child.  While that is true, children were talking to police from that room..children were already being shot, one by one.  Hard choice, but sometimes risks need to be taken.

  One law enforcement adviser on Newsmax this morning said the police on the scene did not have the protective shields that SWAT teams have, and the doors in that particular school had very hardened frames...don't know what the doors themselves were made of.
.
   Of course, our troops...going house to house in Iraq, didn't have those shields either, but that may be apples-and-oranges..   Still, 78 minutes..1 hour and 18 minutes..seems like a long time.

  As I said, we don't know what the police had to work with  but here is what I would like to see..

  Police should have and be trained on the old M79 grenade launcher...a very low cost weapon, and one that works like, and is as easy to use as an H&R shotgun..
    From the photos, the school has plenty of windows.. Why no tline up door entry police in the hall with any heavy object thay can find ready to go... a light caliber shot to one of the windows, followed with a "flash-bang" grenade and a CS gas grenade..then police immediately breach the door.

  Horrors..CS gas on children?  Well that beats a .223 to the face..which every single one of them got....over 1 hour and 18 minutes!


  It would seem that every PD should have the very inexpensive M79 grenade launcher, with appropriate grenades.
  They can even be made better and easier to use, for a reasonable cost.  In his work, my grandson designed a 9mm round that closely matches the rainbow trajectory of the 40mm grenade..

  So it may require to make the M79 a over/under...but a 9mm barrel can't be too expensive.  Surely with this ..they could break the window with the 9mm..then follow with the 40mm rounds.

 Yes, it is very easy to be a "Monday morning quarterback"; but coupled to this one wonders what happened to the million$$ already provided for such school security. 

    Surely, with all the money spent, the police should be furnished with whatever they need, including the M79 an appropriate selection of rounds.

  Keping in mind, if one of those kids were killed or injured during rescue, what a field day something called CNN may have reporting that ! 

[O-mega]

  Excellent post DDZ !

  No way we could make a firm decision now..information too vague and contradictory.
 
   Some things that trouble me.. 1) The 78 minute delay?  2) As in your second paragraph..  How much meddling from politicians?  3) Did the police have proper training and equipment to effect an entrance?

    One over riding factor as I see it.. Whatever they had to do to enter that room, some will say that shooting through the door may injure or kill a child.  While that is true, children were talking to police from that room..children were already being shot, one by one.  Hard choice, but sometimes risks need to be taken.

  One law enforcement adviser on Newsmax this morning said the police on the scene did not have the protective shields that SWAT teams have, and the doors in that particular school had very hardened frames...don't know what the doors themselves were made of.
.
   Of course, our troops...going house to house in Iraq, didn't have those shields either, but that may be apples-and-oranges..   Still, 78 minutes..1 hour and 18 minutes..seems like a long time.

  As I said, we don't know what the police had to work with  but here is what I would like to see..

  Police should have and be trained on the old M79 grenade launcher...a very low cost weapon, and one that works like, and is as easy to use as an H&R shotgun..
    From the photos, the school has plenty of windows.. Why no tline up door entry police in the hall with any heavy object thay can find ready to go... a light caliber shot to one of the windows, followed with a "flash-bang" grenade and a CS gas grenade..then police immediately breach the door.

  Horrors..CS gas on children?  Well that beats a .223 to the face..which every single one of them got....over 1 hour and 18 minutes!


  It would seem that every PD should have the very inexpensive M79 grenade launcher, with appropriate grenades.
  They can even be made better and easier to use, for a reasonable cost.  In his work, my grandson designed a 9mm round that closely matches the rainbow trajectory of the 40mm grenade..

  So it may require to make the M79 a over/under...but a 9mm barrel can't be too expensive.  Surely with this ..they could break the window with the 9mm..then follow with the 40mm rounds.

 Yes, it is very easy to be a "Monday morning quarterback"; but coupled to this one wonders what happened to the million$$ already provided for such school security. 

    Surely, with all the money spent, the police should be furnished with whatever they need, including the M79 an appropriate selection of rounds.

  Keeping in mind, if one of those kids were killed or injured during rescue, what a field day something called CNN may have reporting that !

There is plenty of blame to go around, and I am sure those on the ground are (and should be) questioning their decisions.  Mass shooters need to be taken aggressively, they have already committed themselves to die, so talking isn't going to do much.  I hope they are right in that all those kids were shot in the first few minutes before LEO got there, if there were ANY shots during their hesitation to breach, then that is on them.  The school system will have a lot to answer for as well, like I said, plenty of blame to go around.  The people looking for and removing any MAGA posts on social media should redirect their effort at these kind of people, there were plenty of red flags to prevent this and there was even an AI program looking for this type of behavior.  As to gear, they don't need any thumpers, there are way too many easier ways to breach a door if you know how to, and ways to mitigate injury to those on the inside and out.  This is of course armchair quarterbacking but these tools need to be in every LEO station, and in a few squad cars.

[DDZ]

Inside the school, there were as many as 19 law enforcement officers in the hallway at 12:03 p.m., yet they remained outside and waited for further tactical team and equipment, McGraw said.
That very minute, at 12:03 p.m., police received a 911 call from a girl who identified herself and whispered she's in Room 112, McCraw said. She stayed on the phone for 1 minute, 23 seconds. At 12:10 p.m. she called back and said there were multiple people dead. She called again three minutes later.

Members of the Border Patrol tactical team, known as BORTAC, arrived with shields at 12:15 p.m. There they waited.
The girl called again at 12:16 p.m. and said there were eight to nine students alive, McGraw said. Another student called 911 from Room 111 three minutes later but hung up at the urging of another student. On a 911 call at 12:21 p.m., three shots can be heard, he said.

There is enough information out now that its clear the police were to afraid to enter the room.  At 12:03 a girl called 911 begging for help. At that time there were 19 police offers cowering in the hallway. She called again at 12:16 and said there were 8 to 9 kids alive.  The last call came at 12:21. 18 minutes after the girl called the first time. The police were in the hallway while the rest of the kids were being shot.  I can't imagine the horror for those kids.  There certainly would have been citizens willing to enter the room, especially the parents. Might be less dead kids if the police would have let them.

[nw_hunter]

I was under the impression there was another way to enter the classroom. Windows!  Some children were taken from other rooms by cops and parents by them.


You've always been a reasonable man, (My wife will differ) but know one on this website, or in any news room, knows whether those kids and teachers were killed before, during, or after the police arrived. No they don't. But there is also the chance some were alive.Your condemning without the facts. The investigation just started, you have almost no truly reliable group of facts, but your okay with 10 dead cops. Really?. BTW, 10 dead cops won't rescue anyone. Not ok with dead anyone but perp. The facts are that some police officials and others are saying 3 days later it was not handled properly. Definitely not according to protocol.

Why aren't you, and everyone else here equally as disappointed in the Uvalde Independent School District for leaving the school wide open for an event such as this? I think most on here a very disappointed with the schools lack of safety for the children. But once that killer was in the school, the police are the only hope the kids have. Some officials at the scene, and some on the forum (including me) are disappointed at the way it was handled by some LEO'S. I've talked to some in my family (now retired) and they feel  the same way. Mistakes are made in all walks of life. Police are no different. Not saying these are bad cops, just for whatever reason, things didn't go according to plan. We know it's happened before, and you would think we would learn from it.