Author Topic: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas! A "Speculation" Thread!  (Read 11152 times)

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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #240 on: June 03, 2022, 01:44:37 PM »
I went back and did some reading.
And guess what.
Our friend and highly respected member DDZ was the first to mention Cowardice.  Of course I agree.
And Dee, I can't find where you took him to task for using the "C" word.

Still more proof that it's a personal vendetta.
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Offline Dee

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #241 on: June 03, 2022, 02:07:30 PM »
Well, now it has been discovered that the teacher that proped the door open removed the rock, but when the door was shut, it didn't automatically lock itself.
Every day, more is learned, that circumstances were not always as they appeared.

Thus it's always better to wait until a through investigation is completed.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-school-shooting-lawyer-says-teacher-closed-door-gunman-entered-propping-open
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #242 on: June 03, 2022, 03:59:46 PM »
Well, now it has been discovered that the teacher that proped the door open removed the rock, but when the door was shut, it didn't automatically lock itself.
Every day, more is learned, that circumstances were not always as they appeared.

Thus it's always better to wait until a through investigation is completed.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-school-shooting-lawyer-says-teacher-closed-door-gunman-entered-propping-open
That was known 2 or 3 days ago.
Outside doors are metal at schools and they are heavy, so if the door slammed hard it can rebound before the latch can catch.
Speaking of doors, nearly all classroom doors are heavy wood  which open out with hinges on the outside which of course is immaterial.
The Texas DPS showed a diagram of the punks path showing the inside wall.  The rooms were along a long flat wall.
In many older schools and maybe newer, the walls were made from concrete blocks.
Blocks combined with heavy doors (the hinges are probably tamper proof or difficult) make the classroom hard to breach.
Unless you have a key.
A simple plan would be to divide forces with half on each side.
A cop could have tied a rope or extension cord to the door handle and tossed it to a cop on the hinge side.
Then, a cop could have taken a key (every custodian, staff member, and teacher had a key) worked up a good slobber to wet the key to quieten it and unlocked the door and the cop across from him could have yanked it open.
the cops would have their backs against the wall making hard targets.
It would also be smart to have the first cop on each side on his knees shooting up.
This, IMO would have worked and saved the lives of CHILDREN.

No, I don't hate cops, I know most of ours, three of them very well.
But I was the victim of a deputy sheriff and a crooked judge in 1987.
So I look askance at cops in certain circumstances such as Uvalde.
Give me liberty, or give me death
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Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #243 on: June 03, 2022, 10:31:09 PM »
right from the door breaching swat operations expert. just a bit of spit and rope? man its getting deep here. Why dont you just give it a rest. You and i have agreed on things in the past and i hate to see you losing credibility here.
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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #244 on: June 04, 2022, 06:32:04 AM »
right from the door breaching swat operations expert. just a bit of spit and rope? man its getting deep here. Why dont you just give it a rest. You and i have agreed on things in the past and i hate to see you losing credibility here.
Well Lloyd,  what I would have done is A LOT MORE BY FAR than what the cowards did at Uvalde.
Is it better to try and fail, or, quake in your boots and do NOTHING while CHILDREN are being murdered.

I said NOTHING ugly in that post, I just laid out a plan the the cops could have tried.
Apparently you and Dee would gladly sacrifice children to save your own hide.
Confession might be in order for you.

The cops gathered outside where parents were begging for them to save their CHILDREN, were subjected to handcuffs, pepper spray, and taser to "protect them from the shooter" but they made no move to protect the CHILDREN.
Meanwhile, the CHILDREN themselves were on the phone with 911 begging for police help, while being murdered.

The only way this thread will stop is if Bill locks it or you two decide that you can say nothing else to try and justify the murder of 19 innocent CHILDREN and two adults.
Give me liberty, or give me death
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Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline Dee

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #245 on: June 04, 2022, 09:24:37 AM »
Police team inside school were not advised of children calling 9ll. And believed situation had evolved into hostage  barricade situation. State Senator investigating on why information wasnt


https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/02/uvalde-shooting-roland-gutierrez-911-calls/
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline DDZ

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #246 on: June 04, 2022, 09:57:34 AM »
Police team inside school were not advised of children calling 9ll. And believed situation had evolved into hostage  barricade situation. State Senator investigating on why information wasnt relayed

https://m.republicworld.com/world-news/us-news/texas-senator-school-police-chief-didnt-know-of-911-calls-articlesshow.html

Have to wonder if that had anything to do with the chief of the Uvalde police, and guy in charge of the situation not having his radio with him?
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline Dee

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #247 on: June 04, 2022, 10:05:59 AM »
Police team inside school were not advised of children calling 9ll. And believed situation had evolved into hostage  barricade situation. State Senator investigating on why information wasnt relayed

https://m.republicworld.com/world-news/us-news/texas-senator-school-police-chief-didnt-know-of-911-calls-articlesshow.html

Have to wonder if that had anything to do with the chief of the Uvalde police, and guy in charge of the situation not having his radio with him?

The link doesn't work. Try this one.
Police team inside school were not advised of children calling 9ll. And believed situation had evolved into hostage  barricade situation. State Senator investigating on why information wasnt


https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/02/uvalde-shooting-roland-gutierrez-911-calls/

The article explains that the 911 calls were coming into the City of Uvalde Police Dept, not the Uvalde School District Police.
The city police department wasn't relaying the information to the school district chief in charge. Not being pricey to what had gone on in the classroom, he thought he had a hostage situation. He might not have even known that anybody had been shot at that point.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Graybeard

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #248 on: June 04, 2022, 10:44:04 AM »
I believe based on all I've read and heard so far of this event that the guy in charge likely wasn't trained or capable of the task. Remember he was the chief of a group of 6-8 school resource officers.

I guess they had full police powers at least within the school grounds but it's unlikely they functioned daily as real police do or that they ever face the kind of situations a real police officer might.

Who knows if his little group of officers even have radios and I'd bet there is no system in place to inform his school district police force of what is going on in the town. Now it does seem the school resource officer in his car heard the call so they do at least have radios for that in their cars.

To expect such a small school police organization to act and react in the manner a large force in a large city would is not reasonable. Sure they are charged with stopping such an incident but such is very rare overall and this is the first ever there. They are likely more involved in things like students fighting or having drugs on campus or such.

Sure they may have run an hour or two long drill at some point about how to stop such an event but that doesn't make them trained.

Mind you the above is NOT stated as FACT but rather as my assessment of the situation based on what I've read and heard.

Personally I think it way premature to be calling any of them cowards. When all the facts come out it might be that will prove to be the case for some. You'd be hard pressed to convince me all were however.

I think they were just uninformed or misinformed and not sure what to do so did what they were told to do. The man giving those orders was for sure uninformed and misinformed and likely not trained or capable of doing what he was tasked to do that day.

Another thing folks seem to keep harping on is the lives lost because they didn't go in sooner. Now this is one we'd all like to know but it seems no one with real knowledge is talking about.

We do not know if anyone was shot or killed after the police arrived. What I've read and it's been darn little as such info isn't flowing out, is that most all the shots were into the door or walls to keep the cops at bay.

Now if students were wounded and bleeding out then for sure the delay likely cost some their lives. If any were shot during that delay again it cost some their lives. But dang it, none of us know that. Some are speculating it happened that way and maybe it did.

I tend to think it did NOT happen that way. Why? Because their were survivors in that room or rooms. Not all the kids were killed. I tend to think his rage was assuaged and he had in fact stopped shooting kids, since two teachers were killed I assume he killed all of them but not all of the kids.

Nope I don't know it went down that way but the you do not know it did not.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #249 on: June 04, 2022, 10:59:49 AM »
Having been around a lot of people who were shooting 556s, those things are LOUD.
Everyone there knew it was an active shooter situation.
 But just for argument let's say that the cops had already heard the 100+ shots.

If there's a chance that some of those CHILDREN could be needing medical attention to save their lives it was still imperative that you go in and do all you can for the CHILDREN.

BTW, in a school, EVERY classroom had an exit door to the hallway, so why didn't the cops distract the bad guy at one door while some went in the other door??   The classrooms were connected. ::)   And there was plenty of keys available.

In light of all this, maybe instead of saying "cowardly cops"  I should say "stupid cops."

Is that better Dee??   Lloyd??
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Give me liberty, or give me death
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #250 on: June 04, 2022, 12:21:43 PM »
Quote
And there was plenty of keys available.

You keep saying that but still have not provided a link or even who your source is for that statement. I'm not saying it is not true but it sure doesn't match anything I've heard from those in the know so far.

Quote
I should say "stupid cops."

Is that better Dee??   Lloyd??

Can't speak for Dan or Lloyd but yeah, that is better for me. I think ignorant would be a still better word choice however. Ignorance means a lack of knowledge and I think that is really what was at play there.

I don't recall the number of shots that they say were fired. I think it was over 300 but just don't recall for sure.

I know if I had heard that many and no one was counting as they were fired, I'd likely have assumed all inside were dead. They could have been, should have been even if he had wanted to kill them all. For some reason only the shooter knows I think he stopped shooting them. Maybe he just wanted them as hostages for the standoff, who knows. For sure he had more than enough time and ammo to have killed everyone of them if he wanted to do that. For some reason he didn't want to and didn't do that.

The incident commander should have been made aware of those 911 calls from inside those rooms. Had he had that knowledge maybe his decision would have been different, I'd hope it would have been.

I can't even begin to imagine how hectic that scene was for all involved and yes that includes those cops, cops who had never even been close to such  situation and who were not correctly or fully trained for it. They were flying by the seat of their pants and making it up as they went.

Bug, you keep saying if you were there you would have done this or that. Should that be prefaced with (back when I was physically able)? If I understand correctly the shape you are in now, like me, you wouldn't be physically able to breach a door to get in. I'd have been so out of breath just walking to that door I'd have needed 30 minutes of huffing and puffing to be able to do anything.

I have COPD and am going for the bone marrow test on Tuesday to tell me if I also have leukemia. Toss in all of my other aches and pains and I cannot honestly say I'd have done anything if there. Can you? Honestly?


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline Dee

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #251 on: June 04, 2022, 12:40:41 PM »
Well Bill, I can tell you from actual first hand experience, that when SWAT is called,  everything has gone south, and everything is out of control. Thats why they called SWAT.

We provided SWAT service to any agency who called, whether it be our own police department, or a sheriff's.department.

Protocol was then, and likely is in most situations is now: Once the situation is turned over to SWAT, Police Chiefs, Capitan, or even Sheriffs, whomever was in command stepped  back.
On scene officers, deputies, State Troopers were assigned to OUTSIDE PERIMETER security, crowd control, whatever was needed.

SWAT took control and made the decisions of what, when, and how the situation was resolved. The agency heads were apprised of ongoing operations, but had no control of actions other than calling it off, at which time SWAT pulled back and returned the situation back to the original agency. Once we engaged it could not be called off.

The latter never happened in my tour. We took all to completion.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #252 on: June 04, 2022, 01:09:57 PM »
Quote
And there was plenty of keys available.

You keep saying that but still have not provided a link or even who your source is for that statement. I'm not saying it is not true but it sure doesn't match anything I've heard from those in the know so far.

.

I have COPD and am going for the bone marrow test on Tuesday to tell me if I also have leukemia. Toss in all of my other aches and pains and I cannot honestly say I'd have done anything if there. Can you? Honestly?
I'll sure put yo in my prayers tonight bill, that's serious stuff.

After I retired from Delta Airlines I spent the next 6 years in the school almost every day that students were there, plus my wife was a school bookkeeper for 25 years.
So I have a little firsthand knowledge.
I tried to think of a person in the schools who, besides kids, that DID NOT have a key and couldn't think of a single one.
Give me liberty, or give me death
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Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #253 on: June 04, 2022, 02:13:47 PM »


The cops gathered outside where parents were begging for them to save their CHILDREN, were subjected to handcuffs, pepper spray, and taser to "protect them from the shooter" but they made no move to protect the CHILDREN.
Meanwhile, the CHILDREN themselves were on the phone with 911 begging for police help, while being murdered.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuQuk7yVK4Y
Give me liberty, or give me death
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Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #254 on: June 04, 2022, 09:45:09 PM »
 tears are flowing.  ::)
Lloyd.....why don't you leave me out of your stoopid idiotic run on and on replies when I haven't replied or addressed you in this or other threads? You sound like an obsessed burned out fool ready to snap, full of hate with a personality disorder, and quite likely shouldn't be around firearms. Seriously.
.
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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: 14 Grade Schoolers & 1 Teacher Killed In Uvalde Texas!
« Reply #255 on: June 05, 2022, 03:29:21 AM »
Below is copied from a post by Bill.
*********************************************************************

I'm sure no cop fanboy, in fact I guess it would be fair to say I'm slightly on the anti cop side of the neutral point.
******************************************************************************************

I don't see any of you getting on Bill's case.  ::)

Fact, classroom doors OPEN OUT so it couldn't have been barricaded.
Fact, it did not change from active shooter to hostage negotiations as the chief said.
Fact, the school had plenty of people with a key to that door.
Fact, the cops who stood in the hallway for 40 minutes had a shield.
Fact, https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/please-send-police-now-uvalde-student-called-911-multiple-shooting-rcna30898
Fact, police arrived two minutes after the punk shooter so we can safely say that that they were there during the murder of 19 CHILDREN.
Fact, the border patrol agents (with the same kind of shield that the cops had) couldn't stand by as ordered while CHILDREN were being murdered and went in and killed the punk shooter.
Fact, CHILDREN are GOD's most precious.
Fact, with the fact that CHILDREN were begging for the cops to come save them, those cops should hand in their badges and then get on their knees and beg GOD to forgive them for not doing their duty.
Fact, people are not angry enough about this fiasco.
Bill asked for links to the above but I can't find the article that said the cops had a shield, there's just too many articles out there now to sift through everything.
The rest of the "facts" are still facts.
After I retired from Delta, I piddled for a year and got bored so I got my CDL and drove a school bus until 2004 when I had to have a defibrillator put in my chest and had to give that CDL.   (I retired in 1998)
I've been in many of the 67 schools in my county so I'm familiar with doors, staff and keys.
Give me liberty, or give me death
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Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline Graybeard

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I posit that doors and keys in your county in Georgia do not necessarily have any relationship with those in the small Texas town many years later. So that hardly qualifies that statement as fact.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline Dee

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I posit that doors and keys in your county in Georgia do not necessarily have any relationship with those in the small Texas town many years later. So that hardly qualifies that statement as fact.

PLUS ONE, there's been a lot of facts on this thread that aren't facts at all, and never happened.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline BUGEYE

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I posit that doors and keys in your county in Georgia do not necessarily have any relationship with those in the small Texas town many years later. So that hardly qualifies that statement as fact.
I went into a school in Coos Bay Oregon to get the daughter of a friend and that's the way it was built.
When folks design elementary schools they normally and rightly make the classrooms hard to breach by a bad guy.
Concrete block walls, heavy solid wood doors, and robust locks.
Concrete blocks are cheap and strong and only makes sense if you want to protect CHILDREN.
With stick built rooms a bad guy could just walk down the hall shooting through the walls.

So, I'm betting that they are the same in most places.

Of course when I went to school us students were armed. :)
Give me liberty, or give me death
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Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline Dee

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The history of Robb Elementary school is a colorful one. It for many years run down, and white school board members refused to maintain the school as it was 95% Mexican students whose parents were farm and migrant workers.

Not  much has changed, and Robb Elementary is listed state wide in the bottom 50% in reading, math, ect.

It's pretty foolish to try and compare a predominantly Mexican school 50 miles from Mexico by comparing it to another school system 1200 miles and 4 states away. Especially when one has never been to Robb Elementary,  or Uvalde Texas for that matter.  ::)


You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline BUGEYE

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The history of Robb Elementary school is a colorful one. It for many years run down, and white school board members refused to maintain the school as it was 95% Mexican students whose parents were farm and migrant workers.

Not  much has changed, and Robb Elementary is listed state wide in the bottom 50% in reading, math, ect.

It's pretty foolish to try and compare a predominantly Mexican school 50 miles from Mexico by comparing it to another school system 1200 miles and 4 states away. Especially when one has never been to Robb Elementary,  or Uvalde Texas for that matter.  ::)
Well I wouldn't rush in and save a bunch mex brats either, that makes things all better.
We don't want bad readers and heaven forbid we let someone live that don't know his multiplication tables.
Give me liberty, or give me death
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Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline billy_56081

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I as well as several of my school mates had master keys to the school.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Dee

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The history of Robb Elementary school is a colorful one. It for many years run down, and white school board members refused to maintain the school as it was 95% Mexican students whose parents were farm and migrant workers.

Not  much has changed, and Robb Elementary is listed state wide in the bottom 50% in reading, math, ect.

It's pretty foolish to try and compare a predominantly Mexican school 50 miles from Mexico by comparing it to another school system 1200 miles and 4 states away. Especially when one has never been to Robb Elementary,  or Uvalde Texas for that matter.  ::)
Well I wouldn't rush in and save a bunch mex brats either, that makes things all better.
We don't want bad readers and heaven forbid we let someone live that don't know his multiplication tables.

Bugsy, when it comes to this school  shooting, your a yarn spinner, a truth stretcher, and a fact fabricator. I was merely explaining that the Robb Elementary school was poorly kept and maintained for decades due to racism. Just like the proper open door when closed, did not lock the way it was supposed to.  ::)

At one time the Mexican community rightly petitioned the school board for improvements to the school, but were refused. Many of the parents pulled their kids out of Robb Elementary for about 6 weeks in protest, but eventually gave up and put them back in  school.

You know absolutely nuthin about this part of the country, and are analyzing an environment you know ZERO about fr 1200 miles away, and trying to pass it off as fact when it's not.

You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline BUGEYE

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I as well as several of my school mates had master keys to the school.
I'm sure that happened a lot. :)
Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     Patrick Henry

Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline BUGEYE

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The history of Robb Elementary school is a colorful one. It for many years run down, and white school board members refused to maintain the school as it was 95% Mexican students whose parents were farm and migrant workers.

Not  much has changed, and Robb Elementary is listed state wide in the bottom 50% in reading, math, ect.

It's pretty foolish to try and compare a predominantly Mexican school 50 miles from Mexico by comparing it to another school system 1200 miles and 4 states away. Especially when one has never been to Robb Elementary,  or Uvalde Texas for that matter.  ::)
Well I wouldn't rush in and save a bunch mex brats either, that makes things all better.
We don't want bad readers and heaven forbid we let someone live that don't know his multiplication tables.

Bugsy, when it comes to this school  shooting, your a yarn spinner, a truth stretcher, and a fact fabricator. I was merely explaining that the Robb Elementary school was poorly kept and maintained for decades due to racism. Just like the proper open door when closed, did not lock the way it was supposed to.  ::)

At one time the Mexican community rightly petitioned the school board for improvements to the school, but were refused. Many of the parents pulled their kids out of Robb Elementary for about 6 weeks in protest, but eventually gave up and put them back in  school.

You know absolutely nuthin about this part of the country, and are analyzing an environment you know ZERO about fr 1200 miles away, and trying to pass it off as fact when it's not.
And I made a cheap shot like you are famous for.
Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     Patrick Henry

Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline Dee

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LOL, thank goodness you're not a very good shot. ;D
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline BUGEYE

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Below is a very good read.
The entire world has watched things unfold regarding the murder of 19 Children and 2 adults in Uvalde Tx.

https://nypost.com/2022/05/29/uvalde-shooter-salvador-ramos-is-not-the-only-one-to-blame-for-massacre/
Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     Patrick Henry

Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline BUGEYE

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This takes about a minute.   Raises a good question aimed at the Texas legislature.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/haVxN1q5iUM
Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     Patrick Henry

Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline Dee

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Below is a very good read.
The entire world has watched things unfold regarding the murder of 19 Children and 2 adults in Uvalde Tx.

https://nypost.com/2022/05/29/uvalde-shooter-salvador-ramos-is-not-the-only-one-to-blame-for-massacre/

Well God save the queen, one of the most anti gun English transplants armchair quarterbackin the police he thinks should be disarmed like merry old Englands bobbies.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett
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Offline Dee

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This takes about a minute.   Raises a good question aimed at the Texas legislature.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/haVxN1q5iUM

Just what we need. More legislation directed at more "background checks". I.E. more government intrusion into gun ownership, and gun owners lives.
Every bit as helpful as "The Patriot Act" and "The Department of Homeland Security".

Both of those have really worked well for the American people.

Why not do the obvious. Take down the "gun free zone signs", train the teachers, arm them, and like Florida, force the public schools to comply.

We already have federal background checks, the very last thing we need is more "government intrusion" into our lives.

Hysteria always invites more government.

THOSE WILLING TO GIVE UP FREEDOM FOR A LITTLE SAFETY, DESERVES NEITHER.
                                          BENJAMIN FRANKLIN,
   

You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett
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