Author Topic: .45-70 Throater Pass Around (Read 2111 times)

Leftoverdj · « **on:** March 11, 2004, 08:36:38 AM »

Here we go again. I just ordered a 1.5 degree .458 throater from Dave Manson. Should have it in a couple of weeks. This is said to improve cast bullet shooting in .45-70s. I dunno, never tried it, but I'm about to.

If you want in, it's $10 a chamber and postage to the next guy in line. EMail or PM me to get on the list

MSP Ret · « **Reply #1 on:** March 11, 2004, 11:13:28 AM »

DJ, What would the effects be on shooting jacketed bullets thru the throated chamber? Would it shoot cast better and jacket just as well or better than before or would accuracy with Jacketed bullets suffer? Thanks....<><.... :?:

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #2 on:** March 11, 2004, 11:41:40 AM »

MSP, far as I can guess, there should be no adverse effects on jacketed bullets aside from maybe needing to seat bullets out a bit. This is uncharted territory for me. I've seen it suggested; the idea makes good sense; risks are low; I'm willing to gamble.

I know the early Ruger No. 1s with the long throat shot well and the reports on the boards are good. I'm hoping Haywire will check in here. He had his done by Miller and he can report.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #3 on:** March 11, 2004, 12:58:27 PM »

DJ, Thanks for the reply, will be looking for Haywire's input...<><.... :grin:

JPH45 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 11, 2004, 02:06:40 PM »

MSP Ret, In a bottle neck case, throats are of greater degrees in an effort to control throat erosion. The 45-70, while burning powder charge weights consistent with the likes of a 25-06, it is not burning them at the same pressures, hence we don't see the same flame temperatures, and don't see the erosion effects as quickly as a 1.5 degree throat show erosion in a case like the 25-06 or 243 for that matter. I've done a pile of questioning on this over the last several months, and with chamberings like the 45-70, 44 Mag, 444 Marlin and similar, it seems there is more to be gained than lost. At worst, ones rifle simply won't respond to the treatment.

Early on in the advent of Marlin using Microgroove rifling, it was quickly found that those barrels did not shoot cast bullets at speeds above 1600 fps or so at all. The cure was the 1.5 degree throat, so that the bullet was not being subjected to huge swaging changes in its transition from the case to the bore and a better alignment with the rifling. Of late, I have been reading of bullets being sized to fit the throat of a chamber as a means of not only preventing leading, but of increasing accuracy as well.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #5 on:** March 11, 2004, 03:03:36 PM »

Thanks JPH45, a wealth of information, and appreciated!!!....<><....

Big Blue · « **Reply #6 on:** March 11, 2004, 03:28:49 PM »

Leftoverdj,
How about an unthroater for the .223? :lol: While not wanting to throw a wet blanket on your party, I don't know that I would be willing to chance throating the BC. I was thinking that I could always buy another barrel, I want a 22" anyway, and try it in that. I'll give it some thought and get back to you. I've never sent a rifle for another barrel before, I've always thought it was better to just buy another whole rifle. So if I do that, I'll drop you a line to get on the list. I do like using heavy cast loads.
Thanks for making this available.
Don

.308 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 11, 2004, 05:19:41 PM »

Quote from: Leftoverdj

Here we go again. I just ordered a 1.5 degree .458 throater from Dave Manson. Should have it in a couple of weeks. This is said to improve cast bullet shooting in .45-70s. I dunno, never tried it, but I'm about to.

If you want in, it's $10 a chamber and postage to the next guy in line. EMail or PM me to get on the list

Let's do it, I'm in. Email is on the way to you.

grendel · « **Reply #8 on:** March 11, 2004, 07:07:04 PM »

I'm in.

Grendel

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #9 on:** March 11, 2004, 10:35:52 PM »

Ok, I'm busted.... I haven't shot the dern thing much since I had the throating done :oops: I'm gonna do a baaaad thing and scope it this weekend so I can shoot some meaningful groups and I'll get back to ya on it. I'm a "Minute of Deer" shooter even from a bench if I'm using iron sights. Heck... if I'm not on a bench I'm a marginal MOD shooter whatever sighting mechanism is bolted to the thing :-D :-D

Ian

MSP Ret · « **Reply #10 on:** March 12, 2004, 02:38:23 AM »

:? , I'd really like to try it since I cannot seem to get my 45-70 to shoot cast bullets well but the darn thing shoots jacketed bullets so well (read that GREAT) I can't bring myself to change it with the possibility of hurting it's ability to shoot jacketed stuff. Besides, I have had it a few years now and it's like an old dog, It's a friend and I just want to make sure it stays here with me in good health as long as it can. Now if I could find/buy another 45-70 barrel to experiment on that might work, but for now this old friend of mine will stay as it is, as a matter of fact I just came up with a new name for my 45-70, from now on it will be called "OLD DOG", a name of endearment which it has truly earned ....<><.... :grin:

ajj · « **Reply #11 on:** March 12, 2004, 07:51:42 AM »

MSP: Just a thought...your rifle sounds like mine; great with jacketed but somewhat disappointing with the commercial hardcast bullets I tried. (I don't cast my own.) I used several different bullets and powders but they all shot about the same. Not awful, just disappointing with some true "flyers" way out of the groups. Then, I ordered some 400 grainers in 20:1 alloy and was very, very pleased indeed. More of the specialty casters are offering this soft alloy for the black powder crowd. As experiments go, if you haven't done that one it's cheap and risk free. Good luck and good shooting.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #12 on:** March 12, 2004, 11:10:02 AM »

Thanks ajj, I'm going to try to cast some up this summer...where did you get your 20:1 bullets?, which bullet style and number?....<><.... :grin:

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #13 on:** March 12, 2004, 11:48:20 AM »

MSP. Lee 459-405-HB is working well for me cast of equal parts of wheelweights and lead.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #14 on:** March 12, 2004, 12:02:17 PM »

Thanks DJ, I have plenty of WW ingots on hand, now to get up whatever pure lead I have laying around....<><.... :grin:

safetysheriff · « **Reply #15 on:** March 13, 2004, 06:39:49 AM »

MSP'

Nice logo', see you're still alive and well! I hope the retirement business is still good up North.

Take care.

SS'

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #16 on:** March 13, 2004, 08:30:33 AM »

And the results are in... sort of..
I loaded up some 325gr GCs from a Mountainmolds mold, Lee's 400gr FP, a 400gr HP that I think is a Lee(courtesy of DJ), and Lee's 450gr FP.
These weren't "worked up" loads, just ones I picked randomly out of the book. I used IMR3031 for all of them. All of them were loaded out to just short of the lands except for the HPs (I loaded them first and had a brain fart). In general, the longer/heavier the bullet the better it grouped. The 325s shot a string about 4"long for 3 shots, the 400s shot about 2" and the 450s ended up shooting about a 1" (4 shots)group at 75yds. The 450s were extremely sensative to powder position. The first 2 times I shot, it poofed and the chrono said 750 and 950. when I tilted the rifle back to put the powder on the primer it jumped to 1350. Need some poly batting on top of that load. They also had to be loaded way long to get them to reach the lands. OAL was 2.92, I think I had all of the top lube groove and the edge of the 2nd one hanging out of the brass. I'd like to try some 500 grainers. I might order a mold in a few weeks.
I've never shot any jacketed out of it yet, I have some 405gr SPs enroute from Midway at the moment. I'll give them a whing when they get here.

Not very scientific but I hope it helped,
Ian

P.S. My chrony hates me now. I blew out the plastic covering the LCD readout with muzzleblast and the scotch tape I had covering the sensors for diffusers didn't last 2 shots. I think 3' might be too close to the end of the muzzle. wadda yoo tink?

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #17 on:** March 13, 2004, 12:02:42 PM »

Yeah, those 405 HPs are from a Lee mould. I disremember whether I cast that particular batch before or after I lapped the mould out. I know they were cast before I found that I got better results cutting the WW with an equal amount of lead

Seems to me that bullet of 50/50 ww/pb would be about as good as it gets for hunting.

I think Chrony recommends 15' from the muzzle. Your local hardware would likely have a bit of scrap Lexan to go over the face for a buck or so. With 3031, you are starting to get unburned powder that acts like fine birdshot at close range. Lord knows what the unburned powder from one of the real slow burners would do.

I like 5744 and 4198 for this work. RE-7 or H-322 is as slow as I am likely to go.

All in all, I'd say you are doing pretty good. First crack out of the box, you have loads you could go hunting with.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #18 on:** March 13, 2004, 02:06:59 PM »

, Hello SafetySheriff, It's been a long cold winter but spring is on the way, another month or 2 and it will be warming up, even got out to the range yesterday to shoot a bit. Glad to see you around the site, hope you have been well. Thanks for the comment on the "logo" (avatar?), It was a little big, but Mr. GB himself helped me to get it cropped and posted. This seems to be a great place to hang out, and no BM trolls!!!....<><.... :grin: ( it's been a cold but busy winter, had a new right hip installed, became a grandfather for the first time!!, my lovely grandaughter Maeve (bought her a Sportster already, want to get her a Pardner to go with it, she can use it in about 5 years I figure). My wife had a bit of a problem with a physical/stress test which led to a Cardiac Catherization at Mass. General Hospital in Boston, angioplasty and Stent installed, but she is doing well now, have put my rehab on hold because of that but I'm off my crutches and it's time to start now, spent all day today at a Hunter Safety Instructor mandatory annual workshop, just to busy to rest, sometimes wish I could go back to work just to get a day off!!!)

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #19 on:** March 13, 2004, 02:26:51 PM »

Ok, I'm flexible... :-) I have both Re-7 and IMR-4198 on hand. I'll load some up and repeat the exercise on Monday.... I think I'll use the Re-7.

DJ, did you get my PM?

shoot safe,
Ian

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #20 on:** March 13, 2004, 03:17:27 PM »

Got your PM, Haywire and sent a response. Since the system may have swallowed it, I just sent another response. If that one disappears too, we'll need to tell Graybeard.

I don't have a RE-7 load for the .45-70, but 30.0 grains of IMR 4198 works well with the 405s for me.

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #21 on:** March 13, 2004, 03:30:56 PM »

Erk... no 4198 under the magical reloading bench... It's been transmogrified into 4985 somehow.... good thing I was after the Re-7..

I bought a 45-70 Loadbook from Midway, it has all the info from the various bullet and powder manufacturers as well as RCBS and Lyman for cast.

Ian

ajj · « **Reply #22 on:** March 15, 2004, 06:22:46 AM »

Hi, MSP: My 20:1's were from Bonus Bullets, www.bonusbullets.com. On checking, I see they were 415 RNFP. Lubed with SPG. Very accurate, very pretty bullet, as well they should be at $8.65 per 50 but they come packaged in a styrofoam box that keeps them separated and dent free. Hey, I know, I've gotta start casting my own.

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #23 on:** March 15, 2004, 03:07:17 PM »

Today I got 1" groups with the 325grainers and Re-7, the others were just bad, I'm pretty sure it was me and not the gun... I'll try again later.

Ian

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #24 on:** March 15, 2004, 03:25:37 PM »

I'll always agree with Haywire when he talks sense, It was probably him. :-D

dpastor · « **Reply #25 on:** March 18, 2004, 10:26:17 AM »

Haywire and Leftoverdj

It is interesting that the 405 gr shot well. Initially I tried 325gr, 405 gr and 500 gr (I don't have the Lee numbers, all are long flat nose). With open sights on my Handi 22" barrel, at 50 yds, the 405 outshot the 325 and the 500 wouldn't stabilize (keyholes). I think that the trouble with the 325 gr bullets was that the last driving ring is narrow and inspecting the bullets showed warping at the base. I don't know how to correct that little "defect".

I use Reloder 7 with a 1/2 gr poly wad (I cannot remember the load weight) or Pyrodex (no wad or poly). Both shoot about the same point of aim at 100 yards.

All bullets were either 5% Tin or straight wheel weights. All were sized .457 (the same as the slugged barrel). Unsized shot worse. 405 gr groups at 100 yds about 2"-2 1/2" with the open sights.

Rigby275 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 19, 2004, 04:11:05 AM »

Hi all -

The useful benefit to rethroating is to allow longer OAL, for longer bullets and/or more powder.
If that extra space isn't used, all one does is lower the loading density for a given charge weight, pretty much like lowering the charge weight itself in the "old" shorter OAL load.
Unless you shoot high load-density charges you don't gain anything and you loose pressure/velocity, not to mention the charge positioning problem Haywire noted.
With the new throat, if low/medium velocity loads are a must for you, slower powders that take up more room might give better results, and fillers such as cornmeal to top up the case might help. Kapok or tissue filler can only help the positioning problem since, being essentially massless, it has little/no effect on pressure.
You should think pretty much as though you were loading for a new rifle 'cause old favorites likely won't shoot as they used to. Consider the chances of one of your pet loads shooting exactly the same if stuffed into a .45-90 case.
Exaggerated, yes, but the same principle.

Sorry, but the real benefit only comes using full-charge loads and long, heavy bullets.
Just the way I like 'em! :twisted:

So if I haven't rained on the parade too much, I'd like to get on the list too.

regards,

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #27 on:** March 21, 2004, 10:51:33 AM »

Rigby, the system won't let me answer your PM. To get on the list, email your name and address.

You can certainly throat to seat out and gain case capacity, but my intent is to create a leade that will better align cast bullets. Doing this may force me to seat out, but I'm going to keep it to a minimum, < .100.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #28 on:** March 21, 2004, 11:25:03 AM »

DJ, I guess I will wait a bit on using the throater on my beloved 45-70. It just shoots too good for me to play with it. That is of course it shoots well with jacketed bullets, I can't get it to shoot cast bullets so far. I would really love to cast and load right over the fire at camp. Some day after my other projects are completed I will turn to on getting a good load designed for my gun that shoots a home cast, unsized, lead bullet which I can mold and load at camp or out in a tent with a bullet mold and ladle, and Lee Loader or hand press. One other reason for not throating "Old Dog" (my 45-70 Handi), is that it's the first Handi I ever owned, I traded it for an old double 12 and some cash. It now comes with sentimental value attached, and we all know you can't put a price on that. Good luck on the throating to all of you and I will be following your efforts with much interest....<><.... :grin:

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #29 on:** March 21, 2004, 02:52:55 PM »

MSP. this is frankly experimental, and, in your shoes, I'd hold off, too.

My intent is to fire several groups from each of my Handi's with my favorite cast bullet load with the factory throats, rethroat the rifles, shoot the leftover rounds, and then shoot more groups with the bullets seated out to match the new throat. I'll post all this before I pass the reamer to the first person.

If it works, or at least hurts nothing, perhaps one of the posters who shoots jacketed bullets can run a similar test with jacketed.

I'm sure enough of what I'm doing to do it to my barrels, but I'm sure not urging it on anyone else. and if I am unhappy with my results, I'll cancel the whole deal. I don't expect that to happen, but the mere possibility is part of why I have not taken any money up front.