Author Topic: Convert M70 .458 Mag. to .458 Lott? (Read 3916 times)

CptCurl · « **Reply #30 on:** March 25, 2004, 06:54:10 AM »

Thanks again to all. Talon, I got your pvt message. Thanks for the info. How does your conversion shoot? Do you notice much difference in handling with the Lott?

I don't know whether I really will follow through with it. Doubles are really my thing.

Who wants to talk about double rifles?

Best to all,
CptCurl

Fla Brian · « **Reply #31 on:** March 25, 2004, 07:25:26 AM »

Would that I could afford double rifles! I am unashamedly jealous of you, CptCurl!

How'd you like to swap one for a nice Turkish Mauser?

I didn't think so.

Lawdog · « **Reply #32 on:** March 25, 2004, 09:45:47 AM »

CptCurl,

Actually shooters of big bore rifle love to discuss them. I like the .458 Win. Mag. and the Lott although I don't own either. I do own a .450 Marlin in a M70 and a .450 Rigby built on a Ruger M77 Mark II Magnum action and a number of other different calibers in the big bore class. The Marlin is a step under the Win. Mag. while the Rigby is a step under the mighty .460 Weatherby. I have grown to love the big bores and they are like potato chips - can't have just one, or two or three or....... I would be willing to bet that Fla Brian and I could sit down, spend a whole day just discussing the different merits of different big bores and still go out to a nice restaurant that night as friends. Big bore hunters/shooters are a passionate sort and we never seem to be happy with what we have. It is for this reason I say that I don't own one of something YET, because there is a good chance that I may someday. Small groups and tight lines to you all. Lawdog

Fla Brian · « **Reply #33 on:** March 25, 2004, 12:33:15 PM »

Quote from: Lawdog

CptCurl,

Actually shooters of big bore rifle love to discuss them. I like the .458 Win. Mag. and the Lott although I don't own either. I do own a .450 Marlin in a M70 and a .450 Rigby built on a Ruger M77 Mark II Magnum action and a number of other different calibers in the big bore class. The Marlin is a step under the Win. Mag. while the Rigby is a step under the mighty .460 Weatherby. I have grown to love the big bores and they are like potato chips - can't have just one, or two or three or....... I would be willing to bet that Fla Brian and I could sit down, spend a whole day just discussing the different merits of different big bores and still go out to a nice restaurant that night as friends. Big bore hunters/shooters are a passionate sort and we never seem to be happy with what we have. It is for this reason I say that I don't own one of something YET, because there is a good chance that I may someday. Small groups and tight lines to you all. Lawdog

You bet we do!

I don't have a WM or Lott either, but I've got a .45-70 Mauser and an Officers Model Trapdoor Springfield replica from H&R. And .45 and .50 calibers in front stuffers. Not to mention the .44 magnum Ruger carbine that my wife lets me borrow on occasion.

How do you like the .450? I was thinking of sending in my Handi-Rifle receiver to get a barrel in that chambering. I like single shots too.

Passionate? Yes. Not happy with what I've got? No. Do I want more big bores to play with? You betcha! After some other needs are taken care of, I think I'm gonna have my custom Mauser mousegun (.270) rebarreled to something bigger, maybe a .375 or a .40 Whelen. I've even thought of going even bigger and letting it headspace on the case mouth like a pistol cartridge. I ran into a feller at the range who did just that with a .44 Auto Mag on a short action Rem 700. I just love big holes.

Speaking of big bores, have you ever heard of the Howell cartridges - .375, .416 and .450?

You'd win that bet. And, since you brought it up, you're buyin.'

Buckeye · « **Reply #34 on:** March 25, 2004, 01:36:42 PM »

Fla. Brian, have you seen the 460 H&H or the 400 H&H ??

Bukeye

Con · « **Reply #35 on:** March 25, 2004, 04:26:59 PM »

Brian,
Just to touch on a point you made about the 2.8" case of the 458 Lott re 2.85" case of the 375H&H. When you blow out a 375H&H case (in the Lott chamber) it shortens a little. I gather basic magnum brass was hard to come by back then, and Jack simply used blown out 375H&H cases.

CptnCurl: I had a CZ550 rechambered from 458WM to Lott. My 'smith didn't use a Lott reamer but rather a "458 throat cutter" and pushed it in furthur. Can't remember the details as it was over 3 years ago, but ask your 'smith, they'll probably understand. No modifications were required to get the rounds to feed, but modifications were needed to get reloads with 510gr Winchester softs to feed reliably. If you plan on going to Africa with your Lott, then it may benefit to have your chamber cut to take a Lott with 2.85" case as that's what's become factory available in Sth Africa (I believe?!). Personally, that should be called a 458 Watts, not a Lott. Regarding shooting 458WM in the Lott, I'm gearing up for a big range session in the next few weeks with both my Lott and WM, I'll make that one of my experiments and get back.

Soon my Lott and WM will be joined by a Capstick... passionate about Big Bores.... you bet! If you ever hear of some Australian carrying a 30M1 chambered bolt action for rabbits and whistled foxes, that'll probably be me!
Cheers all...
Con

Fla Brian · « **Reply #36 on:** March 25, 2004, 05:52:16 PM »

Quote from: Con

Brian,
Just to touch on a point you made about the 2.8" case of the 458 Lott re 2.85" case of the 375H&H. When you blow out a 375H&H case (in the Lott chamber) it shortens a little. I gather basic magnum brass was hard to come by back then, and Jack simply used blown out 375H&H cases.

Con

Right you are. Lott points out that same thing in his article. He wrote that the 2.800 case length was based on trial and error. He even mentions his desire to created a similar relationship to the .458 WM that the .357 has to the .38 Spl and the .44 magnum has to the .44 Spl. Incidentally, for those who believe Jack Lott was just a self-promoter, he referred to his cartridge as the .458 Plus, not the .458 Lott. That's a name given to the cartridge by others.

I'm sure he could have gotten a hair more case length, but, apparently, his performance goal, and the ability to use .458 WMs efficiently out of the same rifle, was met with the 2.800" case length.

It's taken a while, but we're now seeing at least one factory rifle in .458 Lott. I would not be surprised if more were on the way. I guess the performanced edge and versatility of this rather special round is finally starting to be appreciated.

If one is a big bore lover, one might want to try to locate a copy of that 10th edition of Handloader's Digest. Not only does it have the Jack Lott article but an excellent piece about the .444 Marlin as a survival tool, one on big bore revolvers and an article by Ken Howell on his three big bore wildcats for African hunting.

Fla Brian · « **Reply #37 on:** March 25, 2004, 07:00:08 PM »

Quote from: Buckeye

Fla. Brian, have you seen the 460 H&H or the 400 H&H ??

Bukeye

No, but I like the sound of them. I'm guessing they're necked up, Improved cartridges based on H&H brass. Are they based on full length cases? If so, the 460 sounds like it might be somewhat like the 450 Watts.

I am completely fascinated by the truly big bore cartridges - .40 caliber and up. I get a kick out of the double takes I see at the range when folks glance at the muzzle of the .45-70 Mauser. There's just something about those gaping muzzles and the big holes they make. :biggun:

Lawdog · « **Reply #38 on:** March 26, 2004, 04:42:07 PM »

Fla Brian,

I've got two .450 Marlins. My modern day buffalo gun, a Ruger No. 1 (got a 29 inch Shilen Match Grade barrel) and a M70 SA Winchester. Both shoot great and the accuracy is what keeps me coming back to the big bores. As far as the new offerings from the fellows at H&H I checked them out but cost is prohibitive (if you think Weatherby's cost wait until you check out these). If you haven't seen them you can go to http://www.african-hunter.com/new_h&h_cartridges.htm and read an article on them. I didn't check out the Howell cartridges YET, but who knows what the future holds. Going turkey hunting with my big bore air rifle(.25 caliber) in the morning with the wife and our granddaughter. I guess the burgers are on me. Lawdog

Fla Brian · « **Reply #39 on:** March 26, 2004, 07:27:39 PM »

Lawdog,

Fascinating article. Ammunition cost shouldn't be all that bad for a handloader working with the .400 H&H. H&H brass is readily available.

I figure any magnum rifle could be either rebarreled or rebored to take the cartridge.

The requirement to start with .378 Weatherby brass for the .465 would make it kinda steep in the cost department though.

The Howells are based on cut down .404 Jeffery cases and are designed to fit in standard length actions.

So many rifles to choose from! Would that I could afford them all. C'est la vie!

CptCurl · « **Reply #40 on:** April 15, 2004, 03:49:27 PM »

Well, I've been away for awhile, and I'm not too garrulous anyway, but I thought it might be of interest that Winchester is now chambering the M70 in .458 Lott. I didn't know that until I stumbled on their website several days ago. I sure didn't know they are doing a .404 Jeffrey either.

Look at:

http://www.winchester-guns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=535&type_id=911&cat=001C

I just thought it might be interesting, since I launched the question originally.

Cheers to all. Let the lead fly!

CptCurl

unspellable · « **Reply #41 on:** April 26, 2004, 08:02:22 AM »

I have a 458 Winchester magazine rifle. I like it and I'll keep it. Many of the cartridge's early problems have been fixed, but I still don't think of it as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

First, for an equal comparision I'd take the rifle's OAL not it's barrel length. That's what you're carrying around in the field. It's an inherent advantage of the double or single shot that it has more barrel length than a magazine rifle.

Seond, if you're gonna play with the 458 Winchester it belongs in a magazine rifle NOT a double. Double rifle cartridges are RIMMED! Rimless cartridges in a double compromise reliability. A 20 mm cannon won't stop a Buff if it won't go bang!

Third, the published figures for the old British cartridges were actual velocities from real rifles, not the inflated figures American manufacturers are so fond of.

Fourth, small cases lead to high pressures. Big cases allow low pressures. An advantage in tropical heat. Difficult extraction is less than desirable when that Buff is wound up.

Incidentally, while this has nothing to do with the 458 Winchester vs something else, an acquaintance got a box of 458 solids from Winchester with no lead core in the jackets. I have a small collection of defective factory ammo in various calibers. Regardless of what you're using, give the ammo a real inspection before you get into a place where you really need to have it work.