Which US weapons will reach the Ukraine first?

[ironglow]

Will it be whatever somewhat dated US equipment can be dredged up in Europe..to aid the Ukraine?

  ..Or will it be the enormous supply of first rate US military hardware left to the Taliban by Biden, be deployed against the suffering population of the Ukraine.

  https://www.the-sun.com/news/7215815/putin-us-weapons-afghan-taliban/

[Drilling Man]

  The report I heard on TV was that the NEW tanks would be treated like a new purchase, and the order is in.

  When they are built, they will be shipped.  In the meanwhile, Ukraine soldiers will be training to run them and ready to go when the tanks are shipped there.

  DM

[phalanx]

Hasn’t this gone on long enough?

[Mule 11]

So, we are supplying both sides. What could possibly go wrong?

[Bob Smith]

What have you sent to Russia?

[ironglow]

  Point being...through the Biden admin incompetency..now the Ukrainian forces may soon be facing armor and air elements that are far superior to anything the Russians could bring to bear.

Next question.. Was it incompetency, or something else?  Common knowledge of all warfare throughout history;
   Study ANY war..If you must leave material behind, destroy or disable it to the point where it is of NO USE to the enemy!

    Whether it is the destruction of excess boats on the enemy side of the Delaware river during the revolution, the occasional spiking of cannons during the Civil war, or the burning of our own fuel dump in Belgium, during the battle of the bulge, it should be second nature to any soldier.  Soldiers have been court marshalled for such an offense.

      Even though he should have known better, he also had all the advice of the joint chiefs of staff to draw from..

   So, I cannot but think the abandonment  he practiced, was handled in such a way, so as to provide some kind of personal or political gain.

[TrumpWon]

I think you exaggerate

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2021/08/30/what-military-equipment-left-behind-afghanistan-us/5658895001/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacharysmith/2022/04/27/us-left-7-billion-in-military-hardware-in-afghanistan-as-taliban-took-over-dod-reportedly-finds/amp/

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/09/republicans-inflate-cost-of-taliban-seized-u-s-military-equipment/

[ironglow]

I think you exaggerate

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2021/08/30/what-military-equipment-left-behind-afghanistan-us/5658895001/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacharysmith/2022/04/27/us-left-7-billion-in-military-hardware-in-afghanistan-as-taliban-took-over-dod-reportedly-finds/amp/

   Your sources are not necessarily trustworthy, being what we see in the NY Slimes and the Washington Compost on a regular basis!

   Besides one would expect that you would be so embarrassed over the stupidity of your demented hero's handling
 of the situation, that you would shrink from the subject..

  Many of our troops killed and helpful allies abandoned...you should be too chagrined to even come aboard on this one.

    And yes, desperate people falling from airplanes...carrying their promises with them..

[TrumpWon]

Bet the Russians can hardly wait to get some of this first rate equipment!

[Mule 11]

More of flounders gaslighting BS.

[Bob Riebe]

Ukrainians are not getting the latest versions of the Abrams or Leopard  tanks with reactive armor.
But the  Russians claim both tanks are designed to fire depleted uranium munitions, which they claim are dirty bombs. Which puts the war on the nuclear war  level in their opinion. Atomic Scientists just advanced the doomsday clock to 90 seconds  before midnight.   Way to go Joe....!

At best that is hype, or more likely BS.
This is the concern for Depleted Uranium.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-science-of-the-silver/

Also attractive to the military is depleted uranium's abundance. Depleted uranium is a by-product of the process by which uranium 235¿the most radioactive and most useful form of uranium¿is isolated from natural, mined ores (for more information, see the side bar). In 1998 the U.S. Department of Energy had about 500,000 metric tons of depleted uranium in storage.

Depleted uranium armor-piercing incendiary (API) munition comes in two main forms. One is fired from the suitably nicknamed "Tank Buster" A-10 Thunderbolt aircraft; the other shoots from M1 Abrams tanks, which are also enforced with DU armor. Both types of API munitions¿a total of 300 tons¿were used during the Gulf War. But only the A-10 kind was used during Operation Allied Force in Yugoslavia.

According to a statement by NATO Secretary-General Lord Robertson, some 31,000 rounds of DU ammunition were used throughout Kosovo during the 11 weeks of Operation Allied Force.
Each round of A-10 DU ammunition contains a 300-gram DU penetrator slug, which brings the total amount of depleted uranium dropped during the conflict to a little less than 10 metric tons.

Radioactive and Toxic
Image: ERNST SCHMID/CHRISTOPH WIRZ

DU AMMUNITION can easily destroy an armored vehicle such as the American M1 A1 above, which was accidentally hit by friendly fire.

The question now is whether the metal that lies scattered over a wide area of the Balkans presents a health threat to soldiers and civilians. "There are clearly two issues" with DU, explains David Brenner of Columbia University's School of Public Health, "the radiation and the toxicological issue." Indeed, not only is depleted uranium potentially dangerous because of its radioactivity, it is also a strong toxin. "If there are effects, it would seem to me that the radiation effects would be the smaller of the two," adds Brenner, a specialist in the biological effects of radiation.

In fact, compared to other materials, uranium and depleted uranium are not terribly radioactive (see the side bar). The latter is used to actually shield radiation from fuel rods in nuclear power plants. But that's not to say that they couldn't have some deleterious health effects. As uranium and its daughter products decay, they emit alpha-, beta- and gamma-radiation¿all of which behave differently within the human body. Gamma-radiation can reach far into the body, but releases its energy gradually. As a result, it has little impact on any one part or organ. Alpha- and beta-radiation, on the other hand, are more hazardous because they have a short range and release all their energy within a small area.
"The so-called RBE, the relative biological effectiveness, for alpha particles is about 20 times higher than that of x-rays or gamma rays," says Tom Hei, also of Columbia University, who studies radiation and cancer. Brenner agrees that alpha-radiation is the biggest concern, but adds that its short range also makes it less harmful in some ways: "The alpha particles have to reach sensitive cells to be of any relevance. The distance they can travel in tissue or water or something like that is in tens of microns." In other words, if a person is exposed to alpha-radiation from the outside of the body¿from standing next to a pile of uranium, for example¿the alpha-radiation won't penetrate the skin, if it reaches the skin at all.

So what is important, then, is not so much the amount of radiation involved, but how much enters the body. The relevant unit for the impact of radiation on tissue is the Sievert (Sv), defined as the amount of energy given off in one kilogram of tissue. Another unit to describe the same thing is the Rem (100 Rem is equivalent to 1 Sv).
In a normal setting, a person is exposed to between one and three millisieverts (1Sv = 1,000 mSv) per year. If you were to stand about three feet from 1 kilogram of DU for one year¿the equivalent of about three A-10 shells¿you would be exposed to about one millisievert per year. But the tissues exposed would most likely be skin or fat¿neither of which are among the sensitive cells Brenner mentions above. Indeed, to do real damage, the radiation would have to reach tissue such as bone marrow.

Theoretically that could happen if a soldier got fragments of uranium embedded in his or her body through injury in combat. During Operation Desert Storm, about 30 soldiers were hurt when their tank was hit by "friendly fire" that contained depleted uranium. As a result of the incident, several soldiers were left with DU shrapnel embedded in their bodies. "Then perhaps the DU is right next to bone marrow, for example, so the alpha particles would have enough range to damage the blood cells," Brenner says. The soldiers' health is being closely monitored, but so far there is no evidence of any ill effects.

Ingested or Inhaled?
Image: USAF

A-10 THUNDERBOLTS, such as the one above, carried armor-piercing incendiary (API) munition made from depleted uranium during Operation Allied Force.

Of course, there are other ways that depleted uranium can enter the body. When DU projectiles hit a target, they partly burn up, creating uranium dust particles, or aerosols. Unlike southern Iraq, Kosovo and Yugoslavia are agricultural regions, and some observers have raised the concern that uranium dust particles might enter the food chain through crops.

According to the AC-Laboratorium Spiez, an independent laboratory that tests soil samples for the United Nations and other organizations, only about 17 percent of the DU particles found after a DU explosion are easily soluble, and might thus find their way into foods. Of those, only 2 to 5 percent are actually taken into the blood stream through the digestive system, making it a negligible source of radiation. "That would be the smallest possible source of exposure," says Brenner. "Because, again, the alpha particles would then be within some stuff, within liquid or whatever and it wouldn¿t have enough range to get out."

Apart from ingesting the aerosols, they can also be inhaled¿a potentially more harmful path. "When you inhale some of these particles¿for instance, in the case of radon, which is a decay product of uranium¿these particles give off alpha-radiation, which could cause lung cancer," Hei says. The correlation between radon and an increased risk of lung cancer was first discovered in uranium miners, who inhaled large quantities. As many as 75 percent of them got lung cancer. Radon gas also rises naturally from the soil, especially in regions with high granite concentrations such as the New York/New Jersey area.
"It depends on how much [exposure] we are talking about here," Brenner says. "I think you would probably get a bigger exposure just from being in your house than from almost any conceivable DU exposure." Similarly, he does not believe that temporary exposure to the radioactive aerosols will do damage. "If you just inhale radon gas, for example, the alpha particles would be in the air in your lung and would have no range to get to any significant, sensitive cells."

Of importance is where exposure to the aerosols occurs. "In an outdoor setting, like in a war or something, the concentrations would be very low," Brenner says. The worst-case scenario might be for the crew of a tank hit with DU ammunition. According to a study by the AC-Laboratorium Spiez, those soldiers could inhale up to 50 milligrams of uranium aerosol. Still, only about 25 percent of the particles with a diameter less than 10 microns would be deposited in the lungs. And as mentioned above, only a small percentage of them would be easily soluble. The rest would be incorporated into the mucus in the lungs, and coughed or sneezed back out in less than an hour.

Poisonous Legacy?
Image: NATO

KOSOVO was rocked with some 31,000 rounds of DU ammunition during the 11 weeks of Operation Allied Force. People must now remove any pieces that remain before they can cause any additional harm.

To be certain, inhaling or ingesting uranium aerosols delivers some additional radiation to the body, but the real health threat may have nothing to do with radioactivity. "Uranium is a toxin that effects the kidneys," toxicologist Bruce Kelman says. "Once you get the uranium into biological fluids, it mostly goes to the liver and kidneys. It breaks down the tubules in the kidneys that allow you to filter the urine out."

It is difficult to say how little depleted uranium it might take to make a person sick, Kelman says, because it depends on its physical form and whether it was inhaled, ingested or shot into the body. "The U.S. EPA [Environmental Protection Agency] determined that the most appropriate oral measure to use was a study in rabbits indicating that the lowest level at which there was an adverse effect observed was 2.8 mg/kg/day"¿that is, milligrams per kilogram of body mass per day. To put that into perspective, Kelman observes, "in terms of making the environment dirty, I don't think it makes it any dirtier than any other kind of military munition, where you have lead scattered throughout the environment, where you have toxic components of explosives that are left over."

So thus far, the threat seems negligible, but a certain amount of caution is warranted. "There is a general known lag period between radiation exposure and when a cancer is going to occur, if it's going to occur," Brenner says. "And it's on the order of 20 years or so. So you wouldn't expect to see radiation-related cancers from, say, Kosovo now. That would be against everything we know about how radiation causes cancer." There are two exceptions to that rule: thyroid disorders and leukemia.
"Radiation-induced leukemia occurs generally in the first five years."

Most of the controversy over Kosovo has, in fact, focused on leukemia. After several NATO soldiers who served in Kosovo were diagnosed, the World Health Organization investigated whether the number of leukemia cases in Kosovo had risen during the last few years. They came to the conclusion that it had not. But this past November, the United Nations Environmental Program followed up, sending a team of experts to Kosovo to take soil and water samples in 11 locations. "At eight sites the team found either slightly higher amounts of beta-radiation immediately at or around the holes left by DU ammunition, or pieces and remnants of ammunition," Pekka Haavisto, former Finnish environment minister and leader of the UNEP¿s Balkan Task Force team, said in a statement on January 11.

A later analysis concluded that some of the depleted uranium used during the war contained traces of plutonium and uranium 236¿neither of which occur naturally, but are created during nuclear fission. This discovery made the origins of the DU a hot political issue and raised additional health concerns because both materials are far more radioactive than regular DU. As it turned out, though, the traces of U236 were so small that they did not change the radioactivity of the depleted uranium; so too, the plutonium content varied from a negligible 0.8 to 12.87 becquerel per kilogram.

Although depleted uranium may not pose an immediate threat, because it is both radioactive and toxic, some action is warranted. Klaus Toepfer, executive director of the UNEP, sums up the recommendations made by the Balkans Task Force in 1999: "Highest priority should be given to finding pieces of depleted uranium and heavily contaminated surfaces. Measures should be taken for the secure storage of any contaminated material recovered.


What countries use depleted uranium rounds?
Depleted Uranium Weapons – State of Affairs 2022

    Russia and Ukraine. Russia has a significant number of different DU-rounds in its arsenals. ...
    United States. The US played a leading role in the production of DU ammunition in the past. ...
    United Kingdom. ...
    India. ...
    Pakistan. ...
    France. ...
    China. ...
   

[ironglow]

Bet the Russians can hardly wait to get some of this first rate equipment!

  Which points out that you have never served in the military.  On any operational base, there are going to be found,
   disabled equipment.
 
   Don't pee on our leg, and try to tell us it is raining.

[ironglow]

A bit of info...

       Yes, depleted uranium projectiles are used, but the level of radiation is so small,  we also use it in our armor
   plate of our own tanks.  That radiation emits only alpha particles..which cannot penetrate to skin.

   Frankly, if I were in a tank with an enemy HVAP round headed on my way, whether there was enough radiation to
  hurt me down the road 30 years, would be the LAST thing on my mind.

   https://www.epa.gov/radtown/depleted-uranium#about-depleted-uranium

     POT CALLING THE STOVE BLACK...... Russia does the same thing, and has been doing it
    since the 1970s

      https://www.icbuw.eu/depleted-uranium-weapons-state-of-affairs-2022/

[Dee]

Ukrainians are not getting the latest versions of the Abrams or Leopard  tanks with reactive armor.
But the  Russians claim both tanks are designed to fire depleted uranium munitions, which they claim are dirty bombs. Which puts the war on the nuclear war  level in their opinion. Atomic Scientists just advanced the doomsday clock to 90 seconds  before midnight.   Way to go Joe....!
.

If the Russians went home, they wouldn't have to be concerned about "depleted uranium". Instead, the Russian military occupy their time, shelling, and rocketing schools, hospitals, and civilian apartment buildings.
While I agree that the Ukrainian government is corrupt, the civilian population doesn't deserve the Russian government to come in and destroy their lives over "perceived politics".

[ironglow]

If western tanks are showing up without reactive armor, that may put them closer on par with the Russian tanks,
  which are showing up with reactive armor that is filled with rubber, cardboard etc.

  Same corruption that brought faulty equipment, tires and etc. to the Russian forces which invaded in the first place.

    https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/fences_and_stones_as_an_alternative_for_active_protection_on_russias_tanks_whats_in_the_reactive_armor_containers-3850.html

  https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1557414498859974656

[Drilling Man]

If the Russians went home, they wouldn't have to be concerned about "depleted uranium". Instead, the Russian military occupy their time, shelling, and rocketing schools, hospitals, and civilian apartment buildings.
While I agree that the Ukrainian government is corrupt, the civilian population doesn't deserve the Russian government to come in and destroy their lives over "perceived politics".

  I wish there was a thumbs up button!

  DM

[phalanx]

I think you exaggerate

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2021/08/30/what-military-equipment-left-behind-afghanistan-us/5658895001/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacharysmith/2022/04/27/us-left-7-billion-in-military-hardware-in-afghanistan-as-taliban-took-over-dod-reportedly-finds/amp/

   Your sources are not necessarily trustworthy, being what we see in the NY Slimes and the Washington Compost on a regular basis!

   Besides one would expect that you would be so embarrassed over the stupidity of your demented hero's handling
 of the situation, that you would shrink from the subject..

  Many of our troops killed and helpful allies abandoned...you should be too chagrined to even come aboard on this one.

    And yes, desperate people falling from airplanes...carrying their promises with them..

I’m glad my old plane wasn't involved in this. But Biden gave up, and left a lot of our equipment there we could have hauled out.
Europe based squadrons combined were six at this time, including us which were only two operational aircraft. Unless they flew out from Virginia. And refueled in Germany, or the UK. Biden really did hump the bunk on this one.

I wonder if my old squadron is involved in that Ukraine fiasco, hauling US weapons. Big fat Globemasters must be the ones doing that. Scary thought right there , armed fighter jets all over in the sky’s. They must have some kind of an escort.
Some NATO countries ended up with our old C141 Starlifters.

[phalanx]

What have you sent to Russia?

Nothing recently. At one time i was able to buy some of their old military surplus. Bought a big water proof canvas field tent with a heater, Cots,  Cooking pots. Great for Deer hunting. 

[Bob Smith]

Thanks for a sensible and not childishly rude answer.

[Drilling Man]

  This is interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/@realukr/videos

  DM

[ironglow]

  This is interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/@realukr/videos

  DM

  A very informative video..  It seems we are dealing with 4 entities, #1)Washington, #2) Moscow, #3) Ukraine and
   #4) NATO.
      All corrupt to some degree...and I believe I may have placed them in proper order, starting with #1..

     However, pending more information, I may move NATO up a bump or two..

[ironglow]

It appears that Americans are oblivious to the current state of affairs, which is we are closer to a nuclear war than the Cuban missile crisis or any time in history. Doomsday clock is at 90 seconds to midnight.
Dr. Paul Craig Roberts turns on the light:

https://rumble.com/v27d3hs-nuke-war-bioweapon-awakening-dollar-dies-and-paul-craig-roberts-2.html

Keep in mind the central theme of the WEF/Demofascist Biden Regime occupying Washington is depopulation and breakup of the USA.....anyway they can get it.
.

   We are in a geopolitical vise, both Washington and Moscow, are after the same end, the dissolution of the USA.

  At least Putin is acting in character, and with basic honesty Khrushchev once threatened, "we will bury you",
  in which case, old Nikita was being a heII of a lot more honest than is today's leftists.

   Both, whether they admit it or not, are moved by a core group of Marxists..and yet we face the Chinese threat,
  once called the "yellow peril".

[phalanx]

Bet the Russians can hardly wait to get some of this first rate equipment!

TrumpWon ,were did you come up with those two crazy pics. One is a training airplane , in a hanger. The other is only an old command, air conditioned ,radio truck. It had NO dish satellites (look at the top) in accusation ability. Even the  Russians wouldn't want either. Or you.

[ironglow]

Best I can tell is the Abrams M1 tank has a firing range of 3000 meters. Likewise for Leopards.

It's is known that the Russian side has moved great numbers of Shturm-S antitank vehicles into theater. This is a track vehicle, manned or remote operated with 14 missiles on board having 8000 meter range. So, whomever is operating those tanks will have to contend with those.

This is the only video I could find on this weapon, apparently just released by the Russian government on Jan 23....

https://youtu.be/X_af7rEnMkk

.

   The Abrams tank has the 120mm smoothbore gun built by Rheinmetall It is smoothbore so it can fire missiles as well as projos.  This gun is so good there is an entire list of nations that use it on their tanks, scroll to bottom to see the list..  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_Rh-120

  The missile fired by the Rhienmetall 120mm, is the longbow/hellfire;

   " The tank cannon has a maximum effective range of about 3000 meters, and precise aim is required to make a hit. The self-guided missile, however, can — like Longbow Hellfire — be effective to more than 8000 meters, and the electronic brain continually corrects the flight path as necessary.

The M1A2 Abrams: The Last Main Battle Tank?

 When you have something that good, don't mess with it !

  Even the Bradley has tank killing capability, and did destroy several T72s during the battle of 73 Easting.

[phalanx]

Space force is now looking into having a war from space, or in space. I don't see any kind of space related fruition just yet.

[phalanx]

Thanks for a sensible and not childishly rude answer.

Ask a derogatory guestion and then play the victim card...

How absolutely leftist of you...

Most of your posts are unamerican socialist woke drivel yet you expect fair treatment. How comical

I don't see that much in Bob, just an avid poster here. Nothing to get very upset about.

Bob, i did enjoy the pubs and the fish and chips. And the lady’s with that accent back then, WOW!!

[ironglow]

  One difference, and I don't know why..  It seems the UK is not near as paranoid over suppressors on  a fox rifle, as they are here..  Almost every .22 it seems, has a suppressor mounted..may be mandatory.

[Drilling Man]

  Speaking of Britts and foxes, I follow this guy,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzYx2FZkjus

  DM

[Dixie-Dude]

To me it makes no sense to send tanks without first sending planes, drones, and anti-tank weapons.  They could use some A-10 Warthogs to knock out the Russian tanks, but they need F-16's for fighter cover to protect them.  Also, drones, especially battlefield drones to see where the enemy is and help knock out their tanks, trucks and supply vehicles.  Tanks to be would be the last thing to send after getting good air support.  Then use the tanks with infantry to take back their territory, especially territory with the majority Ukranian population.  Only a couple of provinces in the east and Crimea were majority Russian speaking.  Crimea has deepwater ports and air bases.  The two eastern provinces are where most of Ukraines mineral ores are located.  Thus you see why Russia wants them as well as Crimea.  If Russia only took those to start with, and left Ukraine alone, there might not be a war going on, but a lot of diplomatic talk.  Russia wanted more, as in all of eastern Ukraine, as well as all of southern Ukraine.  This turn Ukraines resolve against Russia and also most of the rest of the world. 

Russia had already taken Crimea in 2015 with very little backlash from the west.  They could have probably taken the two eastern provinces the same way.  But no, they had to try to take more.  Even Russian speaking people in liberated areas have turned against Russia.   

[Graybeard]

If Russia were not a nuclear power and a major one at that, the world would already have whipped their asses and sent them packing back home. But ya just can't really spank a nuclear power and send them home.

Russia is just plain wrong and really needs to be done on their own home soil what they are doing to Ukraine. You just can't do that to a nation with nukes tho and that's the only reason everyone is walking on eggshells in regard how to deal with Russia's invasion of another sovereign nation.

TM7, you can take your pro Russia, nazis are to blame for it all rhetoric and stuff it. No one else believes it.