Author Topic: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..  (Read 905 times)

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Offline ironglow

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No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« on: March 01, 2023, 02:38:38 AM »
  I humbly suggest that no Abrams tanks be sent to Ukraine. Let them use the Leopard II and the Challenger...both excellent MBTs.
  Why no Abrams?  I say this because of the nature of the Abrams and the nature of the forces involved. 

  Again, logistics.. The Abrams is a complex machine, powered by a turbine engine. The Leopard and the Challenger are diesel powered.

 In recent conflicts, most US vehicles and armor, although listed as "multi-fuel", ran primarily on JP-5 fuel.

    The jet fuel worked well with the Abrams...so why "change horses in the middle of the stream".  Let European powers send in European tanks.  Fill their gaps with Abrams' if necessary..

   The Russians had the T80 which was a gas turbine..many of them were abandoned by Russian troops, when they ran out of fuel.
  Logistics and supply are tough enough where our army uses mostly JP5, I cannot imagine the problems that may be encountered in a rag-tag war such as in the Ukraine.  Let's not make the same mistake the Russians made.

   https://www.historynet.com/t-80-worst-tank-russia-ukraine-war/
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)
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Offline Dixie-Dude

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2023, 03:11:21 AM »
Unless Ukraine is planning a spring offensive, tanks seem to be obsolete.  Russia has lost an average of 150 tanks a month and they can only produce 20 tanks a month.  They are calling old tanks out of mothballs to use now.  Their recent offensive has relied heavily on rockets and artillery near Bakhmut with very little advance .  Bakhmut was a mining town and is almost abandoned.  Even if Russia captured it, it would take years to get mining operations and people back.  Anyway, today it seems like drones and missiles with hand hand held anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles.  Russia doesn't use their air force much for fear of losing more expensive planes. 
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Offline Dee

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2023, 03:25:46 AM »
Unless Ukraine is planning a spring offensive, tanks seem to be obsolete.  Russia has lost an average of 150 tanks a month and they can only produce 20 tanks a month.  They are calling old tanks out of mothballs to use now.  Their recent offensive has relied heavily on rockets and artillery near Bakhmut with very little advance .  Bakhmut was a mining town and is almost abandoned.  Even if Russia captured it, it would take years to get mining operations and people back.  Anyway, today it seems like drones and missiles with hand hand held anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles.  Russia doesn't use their air force much for fear of losing more expensive planes.

Agreed.  With missiles and drones, tanks look more like a heavy duty coffin for the people in'em.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Online Bob Riebe

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2023, 06:58:04 AM »
The tanks Russia is using, and in reaity every one, are Vietnam era tanks or developements there of.
The Leopard being sent  are first generation  that and not the exotic ones that NATO countries and Asia now have.
They are not as well armored as the later ones.

Obsolete far from it; without armor any infantry are sheep being led to slaughter.
 The lack of intelligent battle plans from Russia, of the reality that they still being led by Stalinist era tactics,  are the reason it is failing.
A War force defending its home land is always far more dangerous than the invading army; Germany found this out in WWII.


Offline ironglow

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2023, 06:59:57 AM »
  Could be, but the demise of the tank has been predicted on and off, since the end ow WW1.  Since then, it has gone through a seesaw of development.
  Improve the tank..then improvements in weapons used against it come along, then upgrade the tank again.

   Then with WW2 came the big tank battles in North Africa and the biggest tank battle ever..at Kursk, directly north of Kharkiv, Ukraine.

    Then there was Schwartzkopf's tanks in Desert Storm..   ..And let's not forget Mark Twain's statement;

   
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline phalanx

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2023, 07:14:24 AM »
How about American Air Power? We do very well in that department. And we still have a lot of older aircraft stored out in the Nevada desert.
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Online Bob Riebe

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2023, 07:21:07 AM »
How about American Air Power? We do very well in that department. And we still have a lot of older aircraft stored out in the Nevada desert.
For that you need absolute air superiority, some thing neither side has in The Ukraine.
A report yesterday, I did not check the details, said the Air Force is going retire the A-10s, so the grunts are losing a true air support tank killer.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2023, 07:54:18 AM »
How about American Air Power? We do very well in that department. And we still have a lot of older aircraft stored out in the Nevada desert.
For that you need absolute air superiority, some thing neither side has in The Ukraine.
A report yesterday, I did not check the details, said the Air Force is going retire the A-10s, so the grunts are losing a true air support tank killer.

  A short explanation of the "combined arms" concept, which the US and allies have developed to to a remarkable degree.
  Russia doesn't seem to have grasped the concept, perhaps because there is still much rivalry among the branches of service there.

  We, the US, on the other hand, cross train between the branches. Regular troops competing with regular troops, and Special Operations troops with other Special Ops  troops.

  My grandson was MARSOC (Marine, special operations capable) at various times, he cross trained with Rangers, Green Berets and Seals etc.
   He trained in advanced 6weapons repair at Aberdeen Proving ground..an Army post.

    Dogs and the handlers to match them,  are mostly trained at Lackland air base in San Antonio.. "Enemy villages"
  set up at FT Polk, where Army and Marines trained, etc..

  Combined arms is how all the elements come together in the theater of operations..  Air power supporting ground power, and where needed, naval power joining in, none looking for 'glory' at the expense of others.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dee

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2023, 08:24:07 AM »
How about the United States minds its own business for a change. What a novel idea.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett
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Offline ironglow

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2023, 08:29:22 AM »
How about the United States minds its own business for a change. What a novel idea.

   Well, I don't have any control over that, and surely nobody in Washington will pay me much heed.  So, I just try
  to limit myself to a field where I have just a small amount of experience..not that anybody needs to heed me in
   that way either.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)
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Offline JBinMN

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2023, 09:14:27 AM »
How about the United States minds its own business for a change. What a novel idea.

Ditto.
And I want our $$$$$$$ back Yesterday.
After all those Billions in gear & pallets of $$$ were just left in Afghanistan by this puppet regime in DC, it is about time that we got a significant return on these Billions being sent over to other places. Instead of being used here at home for useful purposes, the $$$ get sent over to the crooks over there, and no doubt some of it makes it back here in laundered $$ to the ones who send it. Don't BS yourselves, it is happening.

USMC Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler was right. War is a Racket.
Grrr.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2023, 11:24:19 AM »
Dunno how many but rat now the US has civilian employees at Fort Benning getting Strykers ready to ship. Dunno how many will ship or when but the deployed the civilians to go to Benning in the middle of the night to begin getting them ready. Sent them out mid week as well. I don't ever recall in my 30 years there seeing such a deployment of civilians for such an emergency effort.

Biden has committed over 100 Abrams tanks I believe.

So we seem to be in this big time. We've already spent more than all of Europe combined I believe and that's before the Abrams and Strykers get there.


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Offline ironglow

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2023, 12:51:41 PM »
How about American Air Power? We do very well in that department. And we still have a lot of older aircraft stored out in the Nevada desert.
For that you need absolute air superiority, some thing neither side has in The Ukraine.
A report yesterday, I did not check the details, said the Air Force is going retire the A-10s, so the grunts are losing a true air support tank killer.
   According to a friend who deployed a couple times to Afghanistan with the 82nd airborne. He said the troops appreciated the Apache more than the A-10s.
  Oh the A10s are great, but he liked the ability of the Apaches, to remain in the area, popping up and down from behind he hills, while getting new targets from the ground troops...while with the A10s it was hit very hard...for a pass or two, then he's on hs way.
  The Warthogs are another weapon that has been pronounced dead a few times also. I doubt it will go without a replacement.


  G+-uess I missed that
    Where did this come from?  ... "The Abrahns sent will be diesel powered."  ..Guess I missed that!

  They must have done some quick engineering to replace a turbine with a diesel. "Haste makes waste", or a catastrophe.

  Frankly, I don't see a gain..pull the turbine for supply issues...then send in a jury-rigged tank that may very well have unforeseen teething problems. 

  Goofy... to do a major modification and without months/years testing in the field..send it into battle..

     Sounds like a Biden driven shortcut.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Online Bob Riebe

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2023, 01:34:12 PM »
I was wrong, they are deveoping , or developed a small diesel engine to power the Abrams components rather than have the turbine continually running which sucks up as much fuel as driving at top speed.

But there are conflicting sites saying the Ukraine tanks will not run on its specially developed based fuel but some other fuel.

Too much headline reading without opening the site I combined these two site into one conclusion. :o

But there is this:
M1 Abrams Was Once Tested With A Diesel Engine That Replaces Its Thirsty Turbine
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/m1-abrams-was-once-tested-with-a-diesel-engine-that-replaces-its-thirsty-turbine

The Abrams Gets An APU - Diesel Progress
https://www.dieselprogress.com/5031881.article

Offline Dee

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2023, 01:47:23 PM »
Ya know. I'll bet they've figured sumthin out. ;)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline ironglow

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2023, 02:21:39 PM »
  That Hatz 1D90 engine is an auxiliary engine, used to charge the batteries if needed. It produces 8.6 to 15 horsepower. Nice looking engine though.

 https://www.hatznorthamerica.com/hatz-engines/d-series/models/1d90/

  Our tanks way back when I was a tanker, had a Wisconsin single cylinder engine as an auxiliary.  Tankers affectionately called it "little Joe"..
  When I worked pipeline later, I noticed that most large dozers also had a "Little Joe'..some acting by direct mechanical
  connection, as I recall.

  For all the above reasons, let the Leopards and Challengers do the job.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Online Bob Riebe

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2023, 05:36:52 PM »
I wonder by what means the newest tanks, of any sort, are protected from munitions that hit from above.

The very newest Korean Black Leopard has dedicated anti-missile defense and loads of other gizmos that come with the computer age.
From the book I have, printed a few years back even the Abrams is not invincible but it is a matter of lose the drive system you ain't goin any where, as it listed the number of Abrams lost , technically, over the years by the U.S. and the countries that bought some.
A little different from the Russian T-80s that exploded from an internal fire when hit by RPGs due to poor design of ammo storage location.

It also listed some of the improvements, one being Hard Armor which includes Depleted Uranium among the components that it consists of.
Oddly some coutries that bought Abrams opted to not get the Hard Armor versions.

Poland has now German Leopards (newest versions), Abrams v3 and the Korean Black Leopard (newest version)
Tank warfare is not obsolete for awhile.

Offline Dee

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2023, 05:57:07 PM »
What can you do with a tank that 4 or 5 drones can't do better?
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2023, 06:35:53 PM »
Crush a car.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline ironglow

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2023, 12:34:44 AM »
What can you do with a tank that 4 or 5 drones can't do better?

   Take and hold real estate !   ...along with their accompanying infantry of course..

  One of the big mistakes the Russian forces have been making in the Ukraine, is inadequate infantry support
   accompanying their armor.

  You have not defeated your foe until you have your boots on and am occupying his soil...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2023, 12:41:53 AM »
BTW..after some searching, I found a situation where a German diesel was experimentally tried in an Abrams tank...

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/m1-abrams-was-once-tested-with-a-diesel-engine-that-replaces-its-thirsty-turbine
 
  It could possibility be an option for a Ukrainian deployment, although I still think the Leopard II and the Challenger II
    both, out class anything the Russians have.
   
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Offline Dee

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2023, 01:23:04 AM »
Crush a car.

But you can blow'em into scrap metal.

I can't imagine a tank being more efficient than several armed drones in holding ground, and controlling movement. Drones are more mobile, just as deadly, less of a target, requires less manpower, less maintenance, and are cheaper.

Russia is responsible for starting this war, but the Ukrainian government is every bit as corrupt, and the restof Europe is kicking back and letting the United States tote the note to the tune of 112 billion dollars and growing. Biden is writing checks OUR OVERTAXED ASS can't cash.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Online Bob Riebe

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2023, 06:12:02 AM »
What can you do with a tank that 4 or 5 drones can't do better?
Depending on the tank, 12-15 rounds per minute, out to 2 to 3 thousand yards with 90 percent hit probablility.

Drones can be and have been shot down by both sides.

The only armor that Russia is using that is even remotely close to what The Ukraine will be getting is the T-90 and that still has its abstract from the 1960s.
The newer Armada is probably design equal to the what the West has but Russia simply cannot afford to lose even one and have the West get a close look at it systems.

Offline ironglow

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2023, 08:38:13 AM »
Apologies Bob, It just occurred to me that the link I offered in my reply #20, is the same link you offered in reply #13..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dee

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2023, 08:45:33 AM »
What can you do with a tank that 4 or 5 drones can't do better?
Depending on the tank, 12-15 rounds per minute, out to 2 to 3 thousand yards with 90 percent hit probablility.

Drones can be and have been shot down by both sides.

The only armor that Russia is using that is even remotely close to what The Ukraine will be getting is the T-90 and that still has its abstract from the 1960s.
The newer Armada is probably design equal to the what the West has but Russia simply cannot afford to lose even one and have the West get a close look at it systems.

Seems to me that most Russian tanks are taken out by drones.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2023, 09:01:51 AM »
  From Dee.. " Seems to me that most Russian tanks are taken out by drones."

   Could be I guess, but from the videos I have seen, the British NLAW or the US Javelin have been most effective
   against the Russian tanks.
  However, we must keep in mind, the videos we see on Youtube or TV news, are not devoid of propaganda, and
    mostly a one-sided presentation.

   However I doubt the combined military intelligence services of the US, the UK, Germany and NATO would be
   sending in tanks, if they were only to be destroyed by drones as soon as they arrive. They must figure that western
    tanks at least have a fighting chance.  ...Guess we just have to wait and see...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2023, 09:53:37 AM »
The tanks Russia is using, and in reaity every one, are Vietnam era tanks or developements there of.
The Leopard being sent  are first generation  that and not the exotic ones that NATO countries and Asia now have.
They are not as well armored as the later ones.

   Correct; some of the western tanks are not being sent in with their #1 armor systems, since those are highly classified and they don't want to risk them on a side fight.

Obsolete far from it; without armor any infantry are sheep being led to slaughter.
   Again spot on; neither infantry or armor should operate alone  with the exception of infantry in Spec Ops, or armor in a quick hit and run operation. in such an operation a tank commander if over run by enemy troops, can call for another tanker to "sweep him off".....with a 5.56 or .30 cal..
 
 The lack of intelligent battle plans from Russia, of the reality that they still being led by Stalinist era tactics,  are the reason it is failing. 
  Absolutely..that long line of tanks we saw early on, that was out fuel, tires etc, sat there on the road all parked in a row..close up to each other..great target. Then they try to operate W/O infantry..and do mnot include infantry while running through a city.  Besides, tanks should avoid cities where possible..

An War force defending its home land is always far more dangerous that the invading army; Germany found this out in WWII.  DITTO

   Not as simple as it may seem..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dee

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2023, 03:17:25 AM »
Ukraine had 2400 tanks a year ago when the conflict started.
Now they're down to a few; and they're demanding NATO to send more.
What's up with that?
.

FAKE NEWS

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/02/16/ukraine-is-going-to-run-out-of-t-64-tanks/?sh=3e2736bb6b69
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Offline ironglow

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2023, 04:43:47 AM »
  The T55s and T64s would have been the ones I would have faced so many years ago. The M47s and M48s that were my assigned models, would last perhaps 10 seconds with today's MBTs..
   
   Most likely, I couldn't even get within range of today's tanks, before being knocked out.  They can outrange me by at
   least twice the distance.

  One fearsome round that the Challenger II has, that is not shared with the other NATO tanks, is the HESH round.
  The HESH round can only be fired by a rifled gun, and the other NATO tanks are smoothbore, usually made
   by Rheinmetall.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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Re: No Abrams tanks for Ukraine..
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2023, 06:48:34 AM »
..As I see it, we should keep in mind that both the Ukrainians and the Russians are going to "pad every story", to
   make themselves look better and more honorable.  All sides did it during both WW1 and WW2..

 We just tend to see more videos from the Ukrainians, than from the Russians.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)