Hunter Silhouette Get a Grip

[chunter]

I am an avid silhouette shooter, and have been at this sport for over 10 years.  However, I am getting a stomach full after watching how many different revisions have come through making the Hunter class more into a standard class.  I would like to ask a few questions:
1.What about the guys who got the Grand Slam before these new revisions?
2.What about the new guys who want to get involved?
3.What about the technology race that is killing silhouette matches all over?

I have seen too many silhouette matches shutdown because there is no new blood entering into them due to the technology race.  Yes I know there are classes, but they do not seem to be working. Many shooters want to compete, with others and themselves.  It is hard to tell someone with factory 10/22 that they are competitive after they get done holding your Anschutz.

I also think that we are undermining the shooters that have went before us by making the rules easier.  Does a Hunter gun really need a two stage trigger? Does it really need a thumbhole stock? Can't we leave them well enough alone, and learn how to shoot them?

I would like to see the Hunter class, be the hunter class.  Not a "see what money can buy class," leave that for the Standard gun.  

I would like to here other views on this also, so I can can judge wether I am off my rocker or not.

Thanks

[Bald Barry]

I'm reminded of the quip about finding a one-armed economist.
They always start "Well, on one hand...".

I hear what you're saying about pricing new shooters out of the game and the whole thing becoming a money race.  But, on the other hand, I think the difficulty of hitting a 2 1/2 X 3 inch chicken at 43.7 yards offhand without a decent rifle and scope pretty well leaves most shooters with non-competition equipment out in the cold.  Yes, they can shoot the match.  But, unless they gear up, they're either going to quit the game in humiliation or in disgust or both.

I can remember in the early 80s when the reverse taper barrels were all the rage.  If you weren't a gunsmith or real chummy with one, you were out a bunch of money.  And then they got "outlawed."

I'm afraid that silhouette shooting is a microcosm of our species'  competitiveness.  Humans have always competed or raced.  And when it gets formalized, the rules get bizarre.  Guaranteed.

Perhaps a "stock" class for off the shelf equipment with tight restrictions.  Perhaps an easier course of fire (i.e. larger, closer targets) for stock or juniors.  Something to get new shooters hooked.  Then they can continue in that class and/or they can gear up.

My wife tried smallbore hunter and quit.  Got her a cowboy lever action and she loves it.  I find it a lot more enjoyable also.

Yes, it's a real problem.  I'm curious to see what other folks suggest.

[longgun]

At present there are several low priced 22 rimfire guns on the market that will shoot fairly decent all the way to the turkey line, if you use decent ammo.   The lower priced guns can be make to shoot even better if you know how to work on them.   Unfortunately new shooters aren't able to tune their guns,  and most can't afford match ammo.   So they show up with a box of Winchester Wildcat ammo and their old rifle.   Obviously they are not going to be competitive.   I have some high dollar guns, but I also have a CZ 452 that shoots under an inch at 100 meters.  Also have a $99 surplus Brno # 1 that shoots small groups.  I know a couple of AAA shooters that shoot  factory 10/22's.  So cheaper guns can shoot good.   Good ammo can also be found now days that is inexpensive and shoots remarkably well.  S-K Standard plus and Wolf are only a couple and they are about two bucks a box.   A new shooter is going to have to look around at what other people are doing if he wants to play the game.

I think the reason most folks drop out is they don't want to take the time to practice and get competitive.   Very few of us are " Naturals".....I would expect that you have spent much time and ammo getting competitive.   When I started shooting,  I shot at least a brick of ammo a week,  and moved up into AA class in short order.    A new shooter who comes out thinking that he will win is just naive.  That is like me thinking that I will beat Cathy Winstead or Troy Lawton.....  I know that I wont, but I still play the game and enjoy it.   I beat lots of people who have better equipment than I have so equipment isn't  always the edge.

I liked it better when the Hunter rules were tighter, but the scores haven't gone up any.   The same people win the matches, shooting the same equipment they have had for years.   The truth is the winners could beat me shooting their gun or shooting my gun,  and it is because they are better shooters than me.   So in my opinion we ought to stop complaining about the rules, and start practicing more.   There will only be one winner of the match,  the rest of us just also shot and some managed to have fun doing so.   For what its worth, this is the way I view this subject.

Don Weathersbee

[davei]

it is a difficult game.  perhaps one of the most difficult of the shooting disciplines.  i kinda like it that way.  

i'm just filing back through my own personal experience but i would say that most of the folks that try rifle silhouette and don't stay with it quit because they have a hard time not hitting what their ego dictates.  I would think that is much more prevalent than folks being scared off by equipment.  hunter rifle has certainly changed over the last 3 years or so.  a painful process with a high price but i would suggest we are better off now than before.  very little discussion (read argument) about which rifle is really an "out of the box" rifle.   teching is much easier.  rifles are more accurate and easier to shoot.  targets are easier to hit and so scores are going up.   my guess is that a shooter struggling to hit 8/40 and not enjoying him/herself will quit whether they are using my nice shiny sako or their own stock 10/22.  if using my nice shiny sako allows them to hit a few more targets and keeps them interested then i am all for it.  and, by the way, if we are at the same match, you are more than welcome to use my equipment.  lots of folks have.  

another thought along the same line.  at our local club we allow the youngsters to shoot off the bench for the match.  Myles, a good 11 year old friend of mine shot off the bench until he was consistently hitting half of the targets in a 60 round match.  at that point we set up the pistol targets for him to shoot.  he shot at those until he was consistently hitting half of them.   in about 8 matches Myles is now shooting at the regulation targets, hitting his share, loving every minute of it, and confident that he will get better.  i've used that progression for a number of new shooters with great success.  as long as shooters see some level of success and feel improvement, they seem to stick with the game.   really has nothing to do with equipment.  but then...  the kids and most women check their ego at the door and just enjoy themselves...  most of us men aren't that intelligent.

the more folks experience "bang clang" the better off we will all be.

i hate it when i make no sense!
dave

[shootingpaul]

I agree with you that the rules changes have done something to all of us, the truth is that no matter what is the rule, there are some people that will challenge them and try to make their equipment very VERY marginal.  So to get rid off it now we have a very broad hunter rule.  Of course new shooter can not afford the best rifle there is - hey!  neither could I, you can buy some points - but only some and I don't think that it will make a difference in winning a match unless you are shooting average 32-38/40.
I could not afford and justify a good equipment and not until I shoot off for Can Nat Champ using a Bushnell Trophy 6-18 scopes on all my guns.
These are $ 200 US scopes that won against Leopolds and so on...
I had factory Rem 700 and unfortunately it was not good enough to win, got a custom built exclusively by Ted Gaillard Rem 700 and ...WOOPS ... here I am winning another nationals
well I am getting carried away.....   The point is that as a new shooter you can shoot a 452 CZ toped with Bushnell Trophy and still make it up - up there and only then you need to look at possible upgrade.
I see a B or A shooter shooting top quality 22 ammo in their laser custom  guns scoring 15/40 - well as long they have fun and can afford it - but do they really need it ??
Well I do not want any one to be upset over my comments, there are many views - as many as shooters out there, and it was my 2 cents.
the new rule is here and we have to shoot according to it - but you know what? - there are still some trying to walk a thin line... why?

[Waldow]

New to this forum today.  Our club is running "HUNTER Silhouette" matches with a difference, Use IHMSA SB field Pistol (BIG) targets at IHMSA distances. Shoot with RF Rifle. No Heavy barrels. 6X max on scope. No changing sight settings during the match.  BUT - only 1 minute for five shots.  Different classes for bolt, single shot, semi-auto, iron sights.

Its a blast. lots of new shooters.

Also use half size big bore targets for High Power hunting rifles.

[eroyd]

I have just taken over the running of our clubs smallbore silhouette and am struggling to dig up more shooters. Seems most folks that inquire are right from the onset worried that there equipment won't be on par. Usually the only real handicap for a beginner showing up with their hunting gun is the lack of an turreted scope.

If they get hooked they'll probably end up with a CZ or Remington or something in that price range topped with a $200 bushnell. That piece of equipment is capable of getting them up and into master class . (as I did) Anyone at that point is obviously very commited to this game and then may decide it's justifiable to pay the big bucks to attempt to buy a couple of points. The advantage of this great expense is so slight that it is only appreciated by the best shooters. I think a lot of these so called improvements are mainly perceived in this mental game . . . an boy this IS a mental game!

[nomad]

No matter what rules you install, there will always be people who complain.

My response is:
"Show me the rules and get out of the way. I'll play the game. Just don't play favorites, don't make ambiguous 'interpretations' and don't change the rules every time I turn around unless they're deficient in either safety or common sense."

If you have a solution -- rather than just a complaint -- write rules that will create a perfect game and submit them someplace like this. If the people here (some very talented and knowledgeable and some just starting out) find holes in your rules, they aren't as good as you think they are. If your rules are 'bulletproof' then you really might have something deserving of consideration.
You might have the key to making the game better. (But just saying: "I don't like what's in place so SOMEONE ELSE needs to make it better to MY satisfaction." doesn't cut it.)

The easiest way to create problems is to write bad rules. The old hunter rules didn't work. If they had, we wouldn't have had the constant controversy. Some aspects of the current rules need correction but, by making things more flexible, we've eliminated a lot of problems.
(Right now, IMO, the 'attachments' rule and the 'load after the ready' rule -- both of which fail the common sense test -- need to be fixed. The rest I can certainly live comfortably with. I plan to submit my thinking to the committee...although I think we're stuck with the loading lunacy.)

If anyone has a better system than what we have, I'm sure that the posters on this board -- and silhouette shooters everywhere -- would like to hear it...

[chunter]

Well glad to here Nomad had my number.

The situation is not going to go away quickly, I know this and I am not just complaining. I would like to hear and see other's solutions.

I have just started my own matches and have thought a lot about this subject.  Currently we are just shooting open classes to get the public excited and involved (these are not NRA approved matches and never will be.  Considering that I am one of the only NRA silhouette shooters around here, I do this in desperation of gaining interest for this sport). Currently we are gaining two to three shooters every week.  The shooters have soon realized that they would like some rules placed on what rifles could be used.  In the end the league will create its own rules and not really worry whether a local silhouette shooter likes it or not.

It makes me laugh to see how many people feel like they need to push the limits, on the other end of the spectrum are people claiming there is not a problem. These people are the shut-up and shoot folks.  All in all bringing up topics like these get people thinking.

Previous message edited. Sorry realized I wasn't making any sense first time around

[davei]

the only response for your shooters that i can think of is that there are rules already in place to define what kind of rifle they can use.  you as a match director can choose to enforce them or not.  personally, as a regular and relatively seasoned competitor, it drives me nuts when i go to a match somewhere and find they have decided to make up their own rules.   it just hurts the local shooters that may want to venture off their home turf and compete elsewhere and it is a pain in the butt for everyone else.  if you are going to shoot rifle silhouette then quit yer bitchin and play by the silhouette rules.  i don't like all of them either but they are what they are.

to your other point, we just went through years of "factory means factory"   "mass produced, not cusotm"  what a gigantic pain in the butt that was.  been there, done that, really don't want to do it again.  for those that are going to use the range rifles...  you will again be at a distinct disadvantage when you compete somewhere beyond your home range.  and...  will you not allow someone to shoot their own rifle when they show up at your match?  will this, perhaps, deter experienced competitors from attending your matches?

ours is such a fun game when you just play it. sure, people are going to push things.  just close your eyes to it and shoot your score.  i promise if you are tending to their issues you aren't tending to your shooting.  extremely difficult to do both and perform at your best.

dave

[chunter]

Just remembered that there was an older thread somewhat relating to this.
http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=13166

[nomad]

Chunter,

A few points on which I think we'll have to agree to disagree:

1. Technology isn't killing silhouette. The difficulty of the game is a far more damaging hurdle -- along with social change, the stigma with which the liberal left has surrounded shooting, the encroaching urbanization that makes it ever harder to find suitable ranges, etc., etc. ad nauseum.

2. Two-stage triggers aren't some recent, cure-all elixir. They were legal long ago in silhouette -- when many of those early slams were accomplished? -- then they were outlawed and now they're back. I like them, although I'm still shooting a Finnfire with a single-stage, but they won't revolutionize anything. The only 40/40 I've ever personally witnessed was shot by Cathy Winstead. She did it with her hunter with a 2 lb single stage trigger. At the same match she was unable to duplicate that score with her standard rifle.

3. The biggest expense in silhouette for those interested in shooting beyond their own back yard isn't the equipment. It's the cost of travelling to the larger matches, paying the entry fees, taking time off, housing and feeding yourself while on the road and all the other ancillary costs that accompany this sort of thing. Equipment costs -- when amortized over the life of the investment -- are minor. (I've just been adding up some numbers: My wife and I both compete and, this year alone, we'll spend -- between the Conard Bernhardt Cup in PeEll, WA, the TX state SB/HP/Airgun, the Louisiana state SB/HP, possibly the Arkansas SB and the SB/HP nats at Raton -- more for our travel, lodging, food and entry fees than we have invested in equipment.)
Strangely, I've noticed people showing up at the match driving $30K SUVs...and complaining that they had to spend an extra $500 to buy a competitive rifle. Since the rifle is probably holding its value -- or better --and the worth of the car is dropping like a chrome-plated bowling ball with the holes filled in, I've often wondered about how they prioritize...

4. THE MOST DAMAGING problems I've seen in the game have come from the bickering and arguing that has developed over 'surprise' rule changes and poorly written rules.

5. 'Factory class/stock/non-custom', whatever, doesn't work. There'll always be high-dollar rule-beaters out there, there'll always be people willing to buy them and there'll always be other people complaining that they can't afford them. Even if you mandate a particular make/model there'll always be that 'abnormal' production rifle that's just better than the others off the same line -- and there'll be people prepared to buy a cluster of rifles in order to cull out the average and keep that special one.

6. Hunter is an entry-level game only if you're out there just to play at it. If you're really planning on being 'in the hunt', it's definitely NOT entry-level. (How can it be both more difficult than standard and 'entry-level' at the same time?)

I tell newbies to just come out and have fun; and that they can do that reasonably inexpensively.
Then I tell them that if they plan to be among the top few they'll be moving the project to another level entirely and they should expect to expend significant time, sweat and money on the effort and the gear.
And I tell them to get a rule book and comply with it.

[still_learning]

as a member of a ROTC team.  In those days, most kids grew up shooting.  No one thought twice about seeing a group of teenagers on bicycles with BB and pellet guns going to the woods to plink away a summers day.  Not anymore.  Also gone are the days when you could go plinking just about anywhere with a .22 within a 30 minute drive; or go to hardware store a buy a rifle or shotgun. I think the difficulty that we face in attracting new shooters is the same as any other shooting discipline.  It's not the equipment, nor any single factor; but a combined effect from a bunch of sources.  Among them, the negative image of guns in general, the loss of significant portions of places to shoot, the time it takes to become competitive and the things you have to give up to make the time to shoot.  The culture that made kids want to shoot in the first place is dying out.  Sure, there are rural areas that pride themselves on hunting and shooting, but these areas are also changing.  When I go to a prone, 3p or silhouette match these days I see a bunch of mostly middle age and older shooters who grew up in a shooting culture.  And, I don't think changing targets or equipment will help.  A lot of prospective young shooters would rather focus their time in becoming expert at something that reflects the culture of their peers, such as golf, tennis, etc., and provides the social and business contacts that shooting offered 30 years ago.  And it's not just the young shooters that are impacted.  I am also finding that the older I become the more excuses I come up with not to shoot matches.  I mean, I really enjoy shooting.  I go to the range 3 or 4 times a week and have a great time for an hour or two.  The matches, however, are a different story.  A 1600 prone match starts at 8 am on Saturday and will not finish untill 1 or 2 pm.  Same for a half course 3p match.  For me, the problem is not being outclassed in ability or equipment, it's the 5 to 6 hours it takes for the actual competition.  In the past you didn't notice when the older guys stopped showing up because there were always a fairly large group of young shooters taking their place.  Thing is, the younger group is smaller and we now notice.

[lucho]

I can understand the Pro's and Con's of the new Hunter Class rules.  I think the key with reguards to new shooters is to remind them that the bigest variable in shooting is the shooter.

New shooters can improve only buy practicing and not buy buying a high priced gun.  

Only at the highest levels do the firearms make a difference.  Everyone has heard the old saying "Don't buy a new gun buy more ammo."

Most shooters get higher scores when they buy a new rifle because they tend to shoot it more and thus practice more.

Those that can afford new equipment will buy it because they can.  That doesn't make them a better shot.

[Steel killer]

Some people are happy to go to the Driving range and hit a few balls with what ever club they can barrow , they may go bowling and use a ball off the rack (that doest fit) and rent the shoes (Don't even want to think about that). In neither case does that make them a golfer or a bowler. Our sport is about accuracy, You can not become a skilled rifleman with a 3 moa rifle. You got to know that you hit because you did every thing right, not that the cone of fire caused by a inaccurate rifle lucked you into a target, or caused a miss. If you are going to learn good shooting form or conditions you must know that your rifle will shot to point of aim.
    If by changing the rules you want to help the new guy win ( to get him to hang around ?)  you have done our sport a disservice. The only score any shooter should worry about beating is there personal best.
    To help new shooters enjoy the experience we set up a reduced course
we call our sportsman match, even allow young shooters to shoot off a rest. One out of five may go on to shoot NRA matches, the rest come and go never helping or hurting the club.  

Steel killer

[nomad]

Steel Killer's Sportsmens' Match is excellent.
At our club we run a similar 'Fun' match where we set the hunter pistol targets on the stands and let anyone shoot anything chambered for .22LR. (Normal ammo limits applied.) You'll see everything from full-house match rifles to plinker pistols. Kids shoot off the benches until they can stand up and compete. Awards are by drawing so there's no worry about an equipment race. Using this setup, people who think they may want to move on to the 'real' rifle game learn the procedures, commands and time limits, get solid zero settings at C, T, and R and they'll be close on pigs. (If you're unfamiliar, NRA hunter pistol pigs are at 50m.) We see a lot of new SB rifle shooters who started in the fun match.

[chunter]

Sorry to hear I am doing "your" sport a disservice. I actually can't really see the difference in what I am doing from your sportsmens match, except that I keep the correct animals and the correct distances. From there shooters can decided whether they really want to move onto the actual silhouette leagues that are going on around the local states.  

I am getting people interested in shooting, and have young people also coming out to try these shooting sports.  In the end I don't plan on selling anyone on my ways,  I can tell you though, that I have saved a dying sport in our area.

The real issue in this post is that the shooting sports seem to be dying.  Granted as everyone wants to point out that technology is not the problem, partially.  The big issue comes down to peoples' attitudes. This post proves it. Peoples' attitudes are what fuel the technology races, the competiveness, and turn people away from the sport. If there were more shooters that were willing to step back and ask the question " is this the best thing for our sport" then we may see change.

If we can put ourselves in check and see what we can do to get more excitement built in our communities and with the younger generations we might see less opposition in the shooting sports.  I also feel that in order to do this we need to get the older shooters more involved with the younger ones.  Once again I may have put a bee in someones bonnet, so be it.

[shootingpaul]

oooo boy oooo boy, and I was thinking that I got carried away...........

well readding the whole topic i must say that for a newbe there should not be any dissadvantage to compete with any type of the rifle, and shooters one thing is clear that silhouette game needs scopes with turned knobs, as to the rifles any will do, my point is that if I choose to shoot 3 pos then I need peep sights (which might cost me anywere from 150 - 400; which is a price of the good scope lets refraze GOOD SILHOUETTE scope).
So if you want to shoot silhouette you need that type of equipment (I am talking about rifle silh) and be it.  I can get going for about $750 Cdn or about $550 US and it will give me a desent CZ and a good Bushnell trophy 6-18 with the KNOBS I want) So it is cheap compare that to the set of golf clubs and a membership in the club.... well I hope you feel my point.

In my earlier post I tried to get across that you dont need the high priced stuff untill you will be top AAA or bottom Master, because this $550 stuff will get you there with no problems.  but if you want to buy points then sky is the limit.
But if someone is not ready to spend 550 to shoot silhouette then I would refer him to basketball or something.  
My daughter is figure skating, she is 11 and her skates were $700 - that will be good for one season!, not talking about lessons.

shootng is a hobby and if you love it enough you will find money.  Any sport you want to take will cost you.
hope did not offend anyone,
hit them in the center and enjoy the klang

[eroyd]

I see some great posts here and I'm really learning a lot. Being new to running matches I'm really scratching my head trying to figure out how to get people out to shoots. My home town, Victoria, has a population of about 300,000 but I'm only getting 12 - 20 shooters per match. This trend is not limited to just Silhouette either but all shooting sports. The other observation is that I am considered one of the 'young guy's' and I'm pushing 40 :eek: .

So to save shooting we have to get new shooters, especially kids out matches. To do this I am willing to let them borrow equipment and shoot off rests if they need to. Maybe call it a "Sportsmans Class". Even if someone shows up with a 14LB prone target rifle I'm not going to chase them off. They may not be shooting for score but at least they are learning the routine and most importantly of all . . .having fun!

As for equipment, I've never felt that I was beaten by someone because they had better equipment. (which they usually do.) I'm always beaten because that person is simply a better shot!

[davei]

Mr. CH,

I believe the reason for some of the more vehement replies is that you are asking, suggesting that we go down a path we have already traveled unsuccessfully.  I don't know how long you have been shooting silhouette or if you are aware of the trials and tribulations of the past three years but going backwards now is not really an option.  I certainly don't have the numbers but I would guess that we don't have any fewer new shooters coming to the game now than when we did in the "mass produced" rule era.  At first blush I would hazard that the percentage of folks that try this game and stick hasn't really changed in the last 20 years.  Clearly there are numerous reasons for the decline of shooting sports; some global to the shooting community, others specific to rifle silhouette.  I think the equipment is the least of our challenges.   And please don't misunderstand...  I am pretty sure that I speak for everyone when I say that any efforts you personally make to maintain or increase the shooting population in your area are greatly appreciated.   There are those generous souls among us that run the matches, I teach clinics, lots of folks drag their unsuspecting friends to the range...  It all counts and it is all important.  Glad to have you among us.

dave

[JimInNJ]

A few thoughts.  I will try to keep it to under two cents worth.

Silhouette is not easy.  Seems that in today’s society most people are no longer interested in a challenge. The pace of our lives has gotten so fast, and we have gotten so used to immediate gratification, that it hard to sell people on the idea of a sport that actually requires dedicating time to practice.

If you ask a young person how they would go about getting into a new sport they would probably say something like, log onto the Internet, find out what the “best” equipment is, order it overnight, and go win with it that weekend.

There is also the ego thing.  Seems that for the past few decades society has gone crazy telling everyone how great they are, lest their feelings get hurt.  People aren’t prepared to discover that they may not score as well as someone who has been working at it for years.

How do you know you are getting old?  When you catch yourself going on for three paragraphs about what is wrong with the youth today!

I guess my real point is that I don’t think perfecting the hunter rules will get many more people into the sport.

An unofficial "Sportsmans Class" that brings people out to a local match so they can have some fun and see what silhouette is all about sure sounds good to me.

I have recently been helping coach a youth shooting league.  We have over thirty kids ages ten and up who come out twice a month.  We are teaching the NRA basic rifle course and going through the light rifle qualification program.  It may not be silhouette, but it is thirty potential new shooters and future voters.

Well, looks like I blew my two-cent budget.

- Jim

[Gringo Grizzly]

JiminNJ,

Since this forum is a place that we can comment - and won't have any effect on future rules anyway, I'd like to take the opportunity to voice the way I feel about hunter rifle rules status - as it is today.

I personally wish the rules hadn't been changed from the production - oriented rifles which were mandated up until a few years ago.

I just thought this was more fun and closer to what the group that originally came up with the hunter rules had in mind in the first place.

What we're getting to is indeed a rifle built "for the rules" instead of "off the shelf".  Just a lighter full-race silhouette rifle.

There's no doubt in my mind that regardless of the rules, the best shooters will almost always win, regardless of rifle configuration.

I just liked the production types better.

This doesn't mean I have any intention of quitting - on the contrary, I'm thinking about building a rifle similar to a few I've seen of late that really are made for the game, but I'd just as soon go back to where we came from.


Anyway, thx for running the forum.  Don't comment much but usually catch up on reading at least once a week!

Gringo

[Jerry G]

There seems to be more opinions than people.  It's time for my 2 cents worth.  The cost of rifle silhouette is not killing it.  It is the dificulty of getting a high score.  I don't care what competition you have, guns, cars, boling, you name it, it gets to be a dollar race.  I just wish they would set the rules and leave them be for a few years.  Every year I have to shell out another $1.50 for a new rule book and before the end of the year they change it again.  That is getting expensive.  Lets just shoot and have a good time.  Maybe if I practice like I should I can take my old rifle and work my way into master class.  But then again practice is a lot of work so maybe......

[Fla Brian]

Gents,

I have not done any silhouette shooting for a number of years, and I don't have a current rule book. Am I to understand that hunter class centerfire silhouette rifles no longer have to be as issued from the factory? I was considering getting into that game backalong, but most of my rifles are either custom Mausers or, in the case of my Remington 700, mounted in an aftermarket stock. I didn't want to have to buy another rifle dedicated to the sport so I gave up the idea. From what I'm reading here, it seems that that rifle, or even my custom Swede, would now be legal. Is this so?

Speaking of the tech race in competitions, a plinking "fun shoot" was organized at my range a number of years ago in which the targets were, predominantly, pop cans (10 shots per row in 90 seconds - four rows per match). When the competition started, all sorts of run of the mill semi-auto plinking rifles, like standard 10/22s and model 60s showed up. I even competed successfully occasionally with a Marlin 25N bolt gun. I remember beating the one guy who showed up with a bull Ruger in a shoot off with my standard 10/22 with only action/trigger mods.

Well, I didn't participate for a few years, and, when I returned to shoot a match - lo and behold - there were all kinds of bull barreled Rugers in evidence - some full up silhouette models.

Kinda defeats the original vision we had for the shoot, but that's just the nature of the human approach to competition, I guess. Maybe what we need to do is set up a separate class for hunter rifles in that shoot as well. Let the plinkers compete against other plinkers. It's just that it was never supposed to get so complicated.

[Mongo1]

Brian,

The present rules are fairly simple.

The rifle must not exceed nine pounds (eight and one half for smallbore), the trigger must lift a two pound weight, the barrel must be tapered ("no bull or varmint barrels"), the stock must generally present the appearance of a sporter stock (and recently changed, not be a thumbhole stock).  The cartridge must not be a wildcat or a magnum and must be 6mm or larger.  

That's about it.  

Get to the range and have some fun. :grin:

[Fla Brian]

Mongo,

Thanks for the quick response. It's good news for me. My old 700 would now be legal in hunter class.

On the barrel issue, with regard to my Swede, would a stepped military barrel be legal in either class?

[Mongo1]

Brian,

In my opinion it is a tapered barrel. Most people think that the purpose of the wording was to prevent the use of the "bull or varmint" barrels...whatever that really means.  Nine pounds pretty much limits things anyway.

As a practical matter, the 700 is probably a more competitive action because of the lock time.  Mausers are wonderful, reliable actions, but the lock time is on the slow side for silhouette competition.  That said, if it is what you want to shoot then have at it.

[Charles/NM]

My comments as an infrequent 22lr silhouette match shooter:
I shoot a few 22lr silhouette matches each year with a variety of my sporter rifles.  I don't know what the rules are and frankly don't care.  I just know that if I show up I'm always welcomed by friendly shooters and I also know that I can either shoot B class smallbore at the teeny targets or, if I'm lazy that day, shoot at the large pistol targets in a more or less Hunter class.  Most of the time I use an old free Glenfield/Marlin model 60 rifle that I've 'tweeked' with a 4 power Redfield or Daisy 3-9 power airgun/22lr scope on it.  It'll shoot 1/2" 50 yard groups with Winchester Dynapoint ammo that I buy at Wal Mart wihile the wife is picking up dog food.  I tried Wolf, Fiocchi, Lupua and several other exotic brands of ammo and found the good old cheap Dyna Point ammo grouped just about as well.  
When I shoot Smallbore I am usually shooting against shooters with expensive Anschutz sporting rifles with Leuplold scopes.  The fun part for me is that more often than not I can beat them.  That's great fun for me.  My wife says it's mean to do that and my shooting buds accuse me of cheating because I shoot my airguns almost every day at my home range.  
My point is this:  I enjoy shooting silhouette, but I'm not the least bit interested in buying an expensive rifle and scope to do it with.  I'm a typical 'just for fun' silhouette shooter.  You need more shooters like me. My one complaint with matches is the length of time I have to wait for my next relay to come around.  That really bothers me.  I would shoot matches more often if the 2 minutes per relay time were reduced and the matches were run faster.  As it is, me and my buds, who do own high priced guns, meet during the week at the Butterfield Range and just shoot for the fun of it.
Just my 2 cents.

[Fla Brian]

Mongo,

Thanks once again.

I haven't weighed the Swede, so I don't know if it would make weight for hunter class. But, the lock time wouldn't bother me since I would be shooting more for fun than to be all that competitive. One of the fellas I saw shooting in centerfire silhouette one time was using a typical 3-9 hunting scope. He was more into having fun and honing his marksmanship skills as a hunter than in winning competitions. Good attitude I thought.

[blamethewind]

Shortly before Shooters Talk folded, an almost identical thread like this appeared.  Many of the same points being made here were made there.  This thread is like psychology- one can successfully make a case for any theory.    

Trying to limit the quality of equipment is fruitless, as is trying to level the playing field.  Silhouette shooting like any other sport is a personal endeavor.  You really shoot against yourself.  There is always someone better than you- sooner or later- and usually sooner.  There is always better equipment than yours.  

Only a fool would run out and invest a ton of money on equipment before he found out if he liked the sport or had any aptitude for it.  However, once those questions have been answered, those that can afford better stuff will and should spend as much or as little as they want.  That's called FUN.  One must still stand on his own hind legs and pull the trigger.  

I am glad they got rid of that silly "factory offering" rule.  The sport only needs basic rules- weight, trigger pull, and stock style.  Once you go beyond these, the game gets screwy as we have all seen over the years.  If a guy wants to spend hundreds of dollars on a .50/17 or some other magic  caliber- let him do it.   There is no magic combination in the sport of silhouette.  It is a shooter's game.  If you can shoot well with your deer rifle, you may or may not shoot better with a "custom" gun.  Just show up, be happy with your equipment, yearn for better, and don't covet thy neighbors goods.   Winning is great, beating your score from last time is priceless.    

Blamethewind.