Author Topic: concealed carry gun suggestions?? (Read 4052 times)

dragonhunter80 · « **on:** March 15, 2004, 08:33:25 PM »

Hello everyone!

I am new here. searched for a forum and found this one, and like what i've read so far! been lurking around here reading for a couple hours already.

I am looking for a good gun for concealed carry. I've been looking at either a .380 or a 9mm, but i'm having trouble finding anything small enough to conceal easily given my petite stature and that i can afford. I really like a the Kahr PM9 for example, but just don't have $800 to spend right now.

Right now i'm looking at something in the $300 or less price range, with plans to upgrade/add to the "collection" later on :-) Presently all i have is a CZ-52, and at a whopping 5'1" , i'm not concealing that anywhere! LOL

So, if anyone has any good suggestions as far as a good, reliable concealed carry gun, please let me know!! Thanks!!

dragonhunter80

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 16, 2004, 02:06:57 AM »

Bersa line of semi autos. Try a bersa thunder >380 lite. right at $ 200.00.

jgalar · « **Reply #2 on:** March 16, 2004, 03:21:53 AM »

Kel-tec. Very reasonable in price, very small and very reliable.

http://www.kel-tec.com/

Mikey · « **Reply #3 on:** March 16, 2004, 03:47:56 AM »

Dragonhunter80: The Bersa is a good idea, as is the Kel-Tec. Another one is the Beretta - you can find some of the older Model 1935s at very reasonable prices and they are both accurate and reliable. They also have a nice grip for a smaller hand. HTH. Mikey.

Paul Sumner · « **Reply #4 on:** March 16, 2004, 04:47:28 AM »

These are good choices, but let me be the first to suggest that your first concealed carry gun be a revolver. I suggest that you look at a 2 or 3 inch, 5 shot .38, like a S&W 36 or a Taurus 85. For less weight, the Taurus 85 TI (titanium) is extremely practical. They fire .38 special (or in the case of the Ti -- .38+p) which is a quite an efficient stopper (with premium cartridges). Also, as an added benefit, when your budget permits, you can add crimson trace laser grips. The beauty of a revolver is that when you pull the trigger, it always goes bang. While semi-auto handguns can be quite reliable, there is always the chance of feeding and ejection problems and in a stress situation, without a lot of feed clearing conditioned response training, this could make your semi-auto a hinderence to self defense. Don't get me wrong, semi-autos are successfully carried by many, including me, for concealed carry. But for the first concealed carry gun, I suggest you look at a revolver.

bgjohn · « **Reply #5 on:** March 16, 2004, 07:40:40 AM »

I agree with Summer. Get a 5 shot 38 special revolver. My carry gun is a S&W 442. It's hammerless so it won't snag on your clothes. It is light and it disappears in my pocket.
JM

hogship · « **Reply #6 on:** March 16, 2004, 11:06:25 AM »

Mine is the Kahr K40 in 40S&W

It has never failed to shoot......can't get any better than that!

It's a keeper!

At times, they are hard to get, but well worth the wait.

hogship

bgjohn · « **Reply #7 on:** March 16, 2004, 11:11:34 AM »

Quote from: hogship

Mine is the Kahr K40 in 40S&W

It has never failed to shoot......can't get any better than that!

It's a keeper!

At times, they are hard to get, but well worth the wait.

hogship

Nice piece but it's too heavy :wink:
JM

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #8 on:** March 16, 2004, 11:15:32 AM »

dragonhunter80, you may be hard pressed to find something in that price range you quoted, but I think those 5 shot 38 Special revolvers would be your best choice.

I personally carry either a S&W Chiefs Special in 38 Special as mentioned above and switch off with a SIG 230 in 380. If you can spend a little more at this time it might be money well spent. By the way one of the Chief Special's is a 3" barrel model that I have the Hogue grips and had my gunsmith install a tritium front sight. Beautiful at night.

hogship · « **Reply #9 on:** March 16, 2004, 12:23:12 PM »

[quote="bgjohn

Nice piece but it's too heavy :wink:
JM[/quote]

I've heard that, before......that's your opinion.

I traded in a 1991a1 Colt officer's model for the Kahr......from my perspective, it's small, light, and just right!

hogship

bgjohn · « **Reply #10 on:** March 16, 2004, 12:40:59 PM »

Quote from: hogship

[quote="bgjohn
Nice piece but it's too heavy :wink:
JM

I've heard that, before......that's your opinion.

I traded in a 1991a1 Colt officer's model for the Kahr......from my perspective, it's small, light, and just right!

hogship[/quote]

And if you put it in your pocket it'll pull your pants down!

JM

hogship · « **Reply #11 on:** March 16, 2004, 01:48:09 PM »

[quote="bgjohn
And if you put it in your pocket it'll pull your pants down!

JM[/quote]

Yeah I know, that's why I keep getting drop jaw stares from the ladies!

:lol:

har, har, har!

hogship

papajohn428 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 21, 2004, 05:54:40 AM »

Kinda gives new meaning to that old phrase, "Is that a pistol in your pants or are you just glad to see me?"

I also vote for a revolver as a first CC gun, and I very definately prefer a three-inch barrel to a two inch. Longer sight radius make hitting easier, carries and conceals as well as a 2-inch, and if the bad guy tries to take it away, he's gonna lose at least some of his hand.
PJ

Ron T. · « **Reply #13 on:** March 22, 2004, 05:50:48 AM »

I carry a pistol every day at work in my son's pawn shop... a 1935 Walther PPK 7.65mm (James Bond's favorite pistol) that is complete with the German "Adlers" ("Eagles") holding the wreathed swistikas (sp.?) that weighs about 25 oz. fully loaded (7+1 hollow points).

I looked at, handled and have ordered a Kal-Tec P3AT semi-auto in .380 caliber (it's back-ordered). It weights only 7.2 ounces unloaded and 10.0 oz. fully-loaded with 6 rounds in the magazine +1 in the chamber. It is a "double action only" pistol and is also safe to carry with a round in the chamber since the hammer can NOT be forced forward until it is drawn back to full cock by pulling the 5 lb. trigger.

My Walther PPK, while a fine pistol, is 2½ times heavier (10 oz. vs. 25 oz.) and pulls "down" on my pants all day which is bothersome. I don't think the Kal-Tec will do that... plus I'm trading a 7.65mm (.32ACP) round for a more powerful .380 (9mm Corto or "short") round.

I'm not choosing this pistol to get into a "gun fight", nor am I looking for "trouble". I'm looking to avoid it if at all possible... I've got higher capacity, heavier hitting .45's in 1911A1's as well as a 9mm Ruger P89PD in 9 x 19mm with an 18 round after-market magazine plus two 15-round factory magazines that came with it for that if it would ever become necessary.

This little pistol is specifically for Concealed Carry. Ohio's new recently passed CCW statute becomes "law" on April 7th. and I'm going to apply for my Concealed Carry Permit. Therefore, I want something light, small, relatively powerful and yet, easy to carry & conceal. The Kal-Tec P3AT fills that "need" perfectly for less than $300 and on "special" for less than $240... it is 3" tall, 5" long and 3/4 inches wide and weighs only 10.0 ounces fully loaded. That "combination" is hard to beat.

My only concern is the amount of recoil it will produce considering that it weights only 10.0 ounces and is in .380 caliber. Recoil in such a light-weight pistol could be relatively severe.

I'm not a "recoil weenie", but I'm also having my wife take the required firearms course with me in order to get her Concealed Carry Permit as well. And, on those occasions she goes out without me, then she'll be carrying the little Kal-Tec pistol.

Of course, I have a good many other pistols and revolvers including a couple of "stubbies"... 2" S&W Chief's or Detective 5-shot, .38 Specials that would also be suitable for her, but they're not as "concealable" as the little Kel-Tec.

We'll see what happens... I bought 250 rounds of "ball" .380 to "break in" the Kel-Tec, so we'll have ample opportunity to see if my wife can handle the .380 semi-auto Kal-Tec's recoil.

Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #14 on:** April 09, 2004, 10:44:35 PM »

If we are giving some guy advice about what gun to carry for self-defense maybe we should consider the level of defense needed. If the only attack one can reasonably expect is from some little old lady carrying a loaded umbrella then a .22 caliber derringer loaded with shorts should fill the bill. If however, there is any possibility the attack may be launched by a physically large hardened ex-con loaded on meth, then heftier hardware is called for. I personally think it is sheer stupidity to pack a gun that will not handle the worst case scenario. My Colt .45 ACP Commander loaded with 240 grain Hydra-shoks will take down one or more large drug crazed criminals if I do my part. As a matter of fact, just about any .40 caliber handgun or a .357 mag. will do the job. But it is unconscionable to advise anybody to carry a small caliber handgun such as a .25 semi-auto or .32 revolver given the type of criminals who run loose in America today.

Dave in WV · « **Reply #15 on:** April 10, 2004, 03:22:15 PM »

A KEL-TEC will give you what you need. The .380 will have a bit of "kick" but there is no free lunch. You get that much power in such a small light package and there will be some recoil.

RollTide · « **Reply #16 on:** April 10, 2004, 05:19:47 PM »

Dusty,
We share the same opinion of the 25 ACP. It is a good round to carry if you cannot carry a gun. It beats throwing rocks unless you are reall good at rock throwing and have some available.

Respectfully, it is "unconscionable" to lump the 32 ACP and the 25 ACP into the same category. Although the 25 and the 32 come in similar size guns, in real life shootings, the 32 Silvertip is about equivalent in stopping power to a 380 or a 38 special in anything 2" and shorter. You must train for multiple taps with the 32, but you need that with 380's and 38's in a snubnose as well. Considering that you can shoot a 32 MUCH faster than most 380's and 38's in a snubnose, a 32 is actually a very viable alternative.

For a determined, well armed, Meth-hyped criminal, ONLY a CNS shot is likely to kill him before he can kill you. A 32 ACP through the brain will kill just as quick as a 45 ACP or 357.

Now don't get me wrong, if I have any idea I will face that level of threat, then my 357, 45ACP, or 40S&W will be with me because with less than perfect shots they will "stop" much quicker than a 32, 380, or 38 snub. However, one is only fooling themselves to think there is a very appreciable difference between the 32, the 380, and the 38 snub as far as stopping power. These less powerful rounds will all likely require multiple shots so speed of second and third shot may be critical. Especailly for persons of small stature, the 32 may be the best choice. I carry a NAA 32 everyday. If I need something bigger, the next step up for me is my AMT Backup in 40S&W which I can still conceal with just a dress shirt and slacks. If I have the option to conceal a bigger gun, then the 45 or 357 get the nod.

In reference to the original question, I would agree that the Kel-Tec P-11 is probably the best balance of price, concealability, stopping power, and shootability for someone of small stature, especially a female. For those unfamilar with firearms, a revovler is a better choice for reliabilty, but you must either sacrifice power to get a revolver in the size range of the P-11 or or you must sacrifice concealability and shootability to get a more powerful revolver.

Just my $.02.

Roll Tide

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #17 on:** April 13, 2004, 09:24:50 PM »

If you are dealing with hardened criminal high on meth you don't want a gun that requires more than one shot and you don't want to have to rely on a head shot (hard to pull off in a fast breaking situation). You want a gun with a reputation for making one shot stops, that's a .357 mag., 40 S&W, 10mm, 45 ACP, or something as bad (a properly loaded 9mm will do the job but I wouldn't want to try it). You don't know how resistent to pain those people are. If you don't cause an immediate (and severe) drop in blood pressure or pull off that head shot then you are in serious trouble. A .32 or .380 ACP or .38 spcl. are just not up to the task. If its your LIFE you are protecting, don't settle for anything but a proven stopper.

Ron T. · « **Reply #18 on:** April 14, 2004, 04:28:25 AM »

Dusty...

Everything you wrote is correct... as far as you went. But let's get something straight before this discussion goes any further.

I'm not "recommending" any pistol to anyone in this forum, I merely indicated what I'm choosing for myself to use. However, I do have both a commercial, blued Colt .45 ACP that has been "accurized" as well as a "Parkerized" old Army 1911A1 Colt-made .45 ACP that is loose as a goose, but still shoots sufficiently well to hit the "target" at 10 feet which is my own "personal self-defense range" as long as the "bad guy" doesn't have a gun. Anything further away than that would be called "murder" by a jury of my peers given my ability with a gun.

I also have a S&W Model 19 (4") .357 Combat Magnum that I shoot rather well... and a Ruger P89DC in 9mm that sports a high-capacity 18 round magazine plus several "stubby" .38 Specials that I could use with "P+" ammo.

Since my Ruger .44 magnum Super BlackHawk has a 7½ inch barrel, I'll not including it in this discussion 'cause it's just too darned big & heavy to carry, but I can "chase" a beer can @ 50 yards all day long with it if I decide to do so.

You are TOTALLY CORRECT about facing a drug-crazed, determined criminal with a big, one-shot stopper... a man always wants a "one-shot-stopper" in such cases. However, my friend... I have to CARRY this pistol for 6-8 hours EVERY day... and I have to weigh (NOT an intended pun) my chances of facing this drug-crazed criminal you've invented vs. having to carry 3 or so pounds of "iron" around constantly.

I agree with your thoughts that I'm not really SURE I could hit the criminal in the head in a "real", fast-moving situation, but I am confident I could make his sorry ass "miserable" with multiple body hits out of the Kel-Tec .380 I've got on order. And then, there is always the readily available 12 gauge pump shotgun behind the counter at the store... it's loaded with #6 bird-shot... a nasty load at 20 or 30 feet... far outside my personal self-defense range.

Using Winchester Silver-Tips, I've put 5 rounds in the "10-ring" at 7 yards using the little Walther PPK .32 ACP. It's accuracy shocked even me! I have also put 5 rounds of .45 ACP "ball" ammo in that same "10-ring" at 7 yards. Frankly, I really don't think I'd have ANY trouble fatally hitting the "drug-craze criminal" at my personal self-defense range of 10 feet... or even at 7 yards.

In fact, THAT is exactly why my personal self-defense range IS "10-feet"... 'cause I am VERY confident that I'll hit my aiming point at such a short range.

My "confidence" is born of over 40 years of shooting pistols, rifles and shotguns... sometimes as much as 10,000 rounds a year, but never less than 1,000 rounds a year.

Like others here have said, if I were KNOWINGLY going into the "scenario" you mentioned, yes... I'd carry a .45 ACP without a doubt... or better yet, a 12 gauge riot gun loaded with "0" or "double 0" buckshot which is even better than the Thompson Sub-Machinegun I have, on several occasions, kept "on" a beer can at 25 yards using 3-shot bursts.

You have to realize that here in this forum, we have a wide range of knowledge, experience and expertise with firearms. Not all of us ONLY visit the rifle range just once a year to sight in our deer rifles.

So give some of the rest of us some "credit" for knowing what we're talking about... or at least the knowledge of what might be best for our own PERSONAL use given our individual capabilities.

Not all of us are dim-witted "civilians" who carry .25 ACP's and feel sufficiently armed.

Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

RollTide · « **Reply #19 on:** April 14, 2004, 06:31:05 AM »

I think the Meth-hyped or similar assailants probably account for the 5% or so that ARE NOT stopped with one shot from a handgun in any caliber. I also agree with Dusty that the head shot is not something that can be reliably used in fast moving situations, but it is about the only thing that will stop 100% with a hangun. NO HANDGUN is a reliable one shot stopper in the worst of situations. Ron T. also makes a good point about balancing level of risk with level of protection, and keeping a long gun close for the worst case scenarios.

I would rather have a 12 ga if I ever have to use lethal force, but i can't carry one of those around all day. If I have to face a deadly situation with I handgun, I certainly would want one of the best calibers that Dusty mentioned, but I cannot always carry one of those either. I can carry a 32 everyday and I feel that it is sufficient for most of the situations I am likely to face. Carrying a small gun reinforces the idea of using it ONLY as a last resort and also takes away any FALSE security about being able to stop someone with one shot. Mindset counts for a lot. Carrying a small gun makes one focus on mindset first (or at least it should.)

Roll Tide

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #20 on:** April 14, 2004, 11:14:56 AM »

Rolltide, you are quite correct that mindset is of the utmost importance. Keep in mind that there are TWO mindsets when a criminal attacks his victem. I want my mindset to include the idea that I have enough gun to handle the situation if it comes to that. If I have to deal with Freddie Folsom, all 6' 5" and 240 pounds of him, I don't want to have a small caliber gun to rely on in a last resort situation. True, a larger bore gun is usually less comfortable to carry but if its my life I'm trying to protect..........................

JohnClif · « **Reply #21 on:** April 15, 2004, 02:52:13 PM »

Dragonhunter... it sounds like you aren't really into firearms per se but want a defensive firearm. I believe you need to lean towards the revolver, and here's why:

Of the two major types of defensive handguns (revolvers, pistols), the former is easier to manipulate, more tolerant of benigh neglect, and simpler to shoot. If you are really into handguns, then I'd say "Get a pistol" but since you are asking the question in this forum then that in and of itself speaks of your interests and desires.

I would counsel AGAINST getting a compact lightweight 5-shot .38 Special revolver. These will have substantial recoil for a newcomer to handguns and not be at all enjoyable to shoot. However, there is a solution: buy a small lightweight 5-shot revolver in .32 H&R Magnum caliber.

Until you get to the level of the hot 9mms or the .357 Magnum, a handgun is basically a remote dagger... meaning that the bullet's primary means of incapacitation is by blood loss the same as an icepick or stabbing knife. The .32 H&R Mag will make a bigger hole than most .38 Special loads while recoiling quite a bit less because of the lighter bullet. Now, this doesn't mean that the .32 H&R is the ultimate defensive round... far from it. But for a small-statured and inexperienced shooter it beats the heck out of the .22 LR, .22 Mag, .25 ACP, .32 ACP, or mild .38 Special load.

I believe Taurus makes an Ultralight in this caliber, and I know that S&W does. My recommendation is for the Smith. I don't believe in saving money on my choice of defensive handgun, because if you really need it then how much is it really worth... and if it fails on you how much did you save?

My final recommendation: take a basic defensive shooting class, and borrow a standard medium-frame 4" revolver shooting .38 Specials for it.

rickd · « **Reply #22 on:** April 17, 2004, 09:30:13 AM »

I bought a .32acp Tomcat for my Wife, It's easy for her to pop the barrel open to load the first round. But, I've Carried it quite a bit 'cause its small enough to slip into the pocket of dress pants, shorts without being obvious. I load it up with Hydra-Shok's and hope to never really need it. My carry pieces are a S&W 640 S.S. 38spl. and can't beat the ole 1911.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #23 on:** April 17, 2004, 09:06:12 PM »

Rickd, do you have any real world data on that .32 caliber Hydrashok? There is nothing magic about the name "Hydrashok" and the .32 is a notoriously peeked round for self-defense. I don't buy this "any gun is better than no gun at all" crap. Dammit! If you are serious about self-defense then equip yourself and your loved ones with firearms that have a proven track record. I see a lot of wishful thinking in this forum on this issue.

Cameron · « **Reply #24 on:** April 18, 2004, 02:10:06 AM »

I would suggest a Walther PPK in Stainless .380 Calibre with Hydrashoks or Silvertips as ammo.I find it easy to control,offers a manual safety and rapid fire capabilities.I think that it points better than any lightweight 2" .38 revolver and can be quickly reloaded with a second magazine.I hit much better with it than a .38 revolver and its compact flat design conceals very well.Just my two cents.
In the event you want more power,consider a Glock Model 26 with 10 rounds of 9mm power.I suggest Cor Bon 115 grain jacketed hollow point which is very effective.I would also suggest Night Sights.

paladyn · « **Reply #25 on:** April 29, 2004, 04:32:01 AM »

I used to have a Bersa Thunder .380. Very good gun, but I sold it because I just no longer think anything lower than .38 special or 9mm is effective enough for protection.

There is a new 9mm from Rohrbaugh coming out that is smaller than a Bersa. I would consider it, a Para CCW .45, or a Keltec 9mm for carrying.
I currently carry a Walther P99, and I can conceal it fairly well. I'm 5'8", 145 pounds and noone has noticed it yet.

Gregory · « **Reply #26 on:** May 01, 2004, 02:23:37 AM »

Quote from: rickd

I bought a .32acp Tomcat for my Wife, It's easy for her to pop the barrel open to load the first round. But, I've Carried it quite a bit 'cause its small enough to slip into the pocket of dress pants, shorts without being obvious. I load it up with Hydra-Shok's and hope to never really need it. My carry pieces are a S&W 640 S.S. 38spl. and can't beat the ole 1911.

I also have a Tomcat, before moving to Illinois, I had CCW permits in my previous states. My first carry gun was a S&W M66 4", carried in a Bianchi shoulder holster, good for woods walking and in the winter under a coat, then I downsized to a Taurus M85 2" snub 38, again carried in a shoulder holster. In the summer months, when wearing just a T shirt and shorts, if going to the mall I'd leave those guns home, just no easy way to conceal them. So I went with the Tomcat, can carry in an inside the pocket holster so it doesn't "print", and the gun was always with me.
So contrary to Dusty's thinking, I felt having a gun with me was better than one left at home.
dragonhunter80, a Tomcat sells new for around $300.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #27 on:** May 02, 2004, 09:04:08 PM »

To support my earlier post in this topic I'd like to refer you to "Understanding Firearms Ballistics" by Robert A. Rinker. In chapter 26, Terminal Ballistics for Self-Defense (page 356) Rinker relates an incident that took place in Indiana. A perp entered a restaurant with a handgun and threatened to kill a bunch of people in addition to demanding the cash from the register. This guy was, evidently, just about maxed out on meth or PCP because the restaurant owner responded to his demands with a snub-nosed 357 mag. (125 gr. JHP) and proceeded to put six rounds in the guys chest. Well, six round didn't get the job done. You or I would've been thinking "head shot" by this time but evidently the owner decided that a repeat of the original would do the job. He reloaded and put another six into the perps chest. You're saying to yourself "NO WAY!!" Well, get a load of this, the guy didn't go down with TWELVE 125 gr. JHPs and the restaurant owner reloaded AGAIN and gave it ANOTHER try!! That's right, EIGHTEEN rounds from a 357 mag., the perp finally hit the floor! My point is, people on drugs are hard to stop, and while this is an extreme case one should always consider this possibility when selecting a gun for self-defense. PLEASE, don't ever suggest to anybody that they get a .380 auto or a .38 special as a defense gun. Ninety per cent of the time just showing the gun will end a confrontation but its that last 10% where things get dicey, and if you aren't prepared for that 10% it could cost you your life.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #28 on:** May 02, 2004, 09:09:10 PM »

I forgot, later in that same chapter Rinker relates a story about two cops who tried to take down a another drug hardened criminal using .38 special +P loads. One of the cops ended up dead and the other was considerably the worse for wear. Grab a copy of that book, its worth every penny of the cover price.

twodollarpistol · « **Reply #29 on:** May 06, 2004, 01:15:10 AM »

Dusty Miller
I would like to ask exactly how many drug crazy thugs have you shot? In fact how many people have you shot period? Or for that matter, how many times have you been shot. I would think that you would need some type of data to form such a hard line opinion. Yea , big is better, if you got big when you need it, but the best gun you can ever own is the one you WILL ALWAYS have with you when you need it. A good hit with a .32 is more effective than a .45 sitting at home because the uniform of the day doesn't allow for hiding your 1911 very easily. My Kel-Tec .32, which I call Mighty Mouse, is ALWAYS in my pocket, regardless of whatever else I am carrying. ALWAYS ! And I do carry other guns most of the time, up to and including a 4 5/8" RBH in .41 mag, in case I need to stop a drug crazy bus. There are as many choices of weapons as there are needs. Perhaps you should consider some of them.