357vs38sp

[slopoke]

Was told velocity of 357 from a 2'' barrel as one of s&w airlites is insignifcant compared to a 38sp. If this is true it seems to me there
is no advantage to having a357/38sp capable gun only disadvantage
of more noise and recoil.Is this correct or am I missing something?

[Questor]

There's a difference all right, if you're comparing the same bullet weight and type.  At those velocities, even an extra 200fps is very significant. The 357 is probably more like 300-350fps faster.

[Mikey]

slopoke:  Nope, you're not missing anything.  The 357 from a 2" bbl is more bark than bite and, from my personal perspective, is hardly worth the effort or expense.  I have fired a number of 2" 357s and find them to be difficult to control and to bring back on target for the follow-up shot(s), especially in high stress situations.  

The worst choice of ammo for those things seem to be the lightweight, high speed plus Ps that give you minus P performance.  

When I purchased each of my 38 snubbies I had the choice of a 357 or a 38 spl.  My money went to the 38s.  In each of my 38 snubbies I carry only one load - a 200 gn semi-wadcutter, or round nose flat point over 3.8 of WW231, for a modest velocity of 770'/sec (probably from a much longer bbl) at only 15,5K psi - well within the pressure limits for the 38 spl.  Shooting this load is no more punishing than shooting the 148 gn wadcutter target load, but it has a well deserved reputation for effectiveness.  

Save your $ and learn how to shoot the 38 snubbie and you should be happier.  HTH.  Mikey.

[slopoke]

Thanks Mikey. Much appreciated.

[Ken in SENM]

Mikey,

I hear ya talkin' a lot about your 200 grain lead slugs in your 38's and .357's. Where do you get 'em? I know they can be cast, but is there a source for these, especially in the flat nose configuration? If you can buy them from a supplier, are they swaged (very soft!) or are they poured and cast?

I like heavy slugs, and agree that these at a decent velocity would be as good or better than anything else for personal protection and other things as well. I shoot the 158 grain lead hollowpoints made by most of the majors and get along with them OK. I like them better than the lighter weight jacketed stuff at hyper velocities.

I have no real documentable evidence to say why. But I know that momentum is a factor in penetration, and penetration is ultimately what gets the pill where it needs to go, under the most difficult situations, ie heavy clothing, bones, etc. if the initial velocity is sufficient. I am not a great fan of high pressure loads. I would much rather shoot something that is both relatively easy on the firearm and easy enough on the shooter to be conducive to less flinching!! My wife shoots those kind better as well, and I don't want to be carrying two different loads between us. KISS is much better!

Loud noises can create tracks in underwear, but seldom do much more. Misses just don't count. I do not like a plain round nose slug, ie the old anemic 200 rain round nose slugs that used to be sold over the counter (tells my age, doesn't it?). A bit more velocity can aggravate the leading  potential, hence my questions about the softness of the bullets you use. This would be especially important if the slugs were used at the higher velocities of the standard magnum loads. I like large caliber, large sized bullets, but large framed platforms suitable for launching large calibers are not very handy for pocket or purse carry.

The .38/.357 caliber is, to me, a satisfactory compromise, if it is suitably loaded, and if a few of these pills can be applied to center mass quickly. I understand that lots of folks like the semi autos, but I have way too much subconcious training in the bank to give up my reeevolvers at this point in time. And when the flag flys and things get tense, whatever happens to be lodged in the subconcious mind is what is gonna get done!!!

Thanks for any info you can give about your sources for your slugs. I have quit casting. Takes a lot of time, and materials are not as available as they once were, and time is scarce for me these days. I do load, so I would like to find a source for a good bullet in this caliber. Again, I prefer a large flat nose, with just enough relief to make loading a bit easier than a straight wadcutter.  I look forward to hearing your comments.

[Robert357]

I will echo the question about 200 grain lead slugs in .357 inch diameter and where to get them without having to cast them.  

I would like to also ask a related follow-up question.  Since most of the comments about the 200 grain slug (I have read elsewhere) are that they "penetrate" very well, and since I have a bunch of Speer 200 grain 0.357 inch diameter sillouette total metal jacket bullets, would the Speer 200 grain jacketed bullet also be a reasonable self defence load, if I can get its long shape into a bullet that will not be too long for my revolver?  

I guess my question has to do with if the 200 grain lead slug is a "stopper" because of its weight and penetration or is there an expectation for "mushrooming" of the round nose or wad cutter bullet?  The Speer TMJ is a flat point, semi-wad-cutter shape.

Thanks

[Ken in SENM]

Robert,

I really don't think that any of the 200 grainers are gonna expand any at all, especially at the velocities that Mikey mentioned, and especially at velocities that can be reasonably generated out of a two inch barrel. You mention a major consideration of any 200 grain bullet. The additional length can cause problems of too much overall cartridge length for some revolver cylinders, especially if the round is crimped in the regular crimp groove.

That is why I asked the question. Bullet construction is definitely a consideration. Someone makes a 168 grain Keith style bullet that really looks good, and they claim it is designed so that the crimp groove seats it deeply enough in the case to keep overall length short enough to fit any cylinder. And it has a big flat face on it, that should really smack when it hits!

I am hoping that Mikey can shed a bit more light on just what bullet he is loading, and at what OAL, and maybe even with what load! Your full metal jacketed bullet will obviously not expand at all. The shape of it will determine how much shock it would transmit to its intended target. A round nose lead will slip right on through and may not disturb its target much initially even though it may be responsible for the demise of said target after a bit of time. Yours may also do the same.

I think I have seen a picture of your bullet. If so, it is a round nose with a small flat spot at the tip. I really think that the larger the flat spot, the better, especially for self defense purposes. I tend to prefer flat point jacketed bullets over hollow points for the same reason. I know this flys in the face of what many consider to be good advice for self defense rounds. But unless you drive a hollow point to screaming velocity, it will probably not expand out of a short barreled revolver, with the exception of a bullet designed to expand at lower velocity. Then you may have penetration issues. And a hollow point that fills up with leather, denim, polyester fiberfill or what ever has been demonstrated to act much like any other round nosed slug.

It is kind of a hard thing to make choices about. Everything is a compromise of some sort. What ever happens, in a self defense situation, if I have to fire at someone, I want to make certain that I get good hits and good penetration to hopefully hit the spinal column or other major bone/nerve structure, which will have the maximum possible effect to cause that person to immediately cease and desist. That is the intended result, to make 'em stop doing what ever it is they are doing that puts my life or someone else's life in jeopardy. And I also intend to keep on shootin' till they do stop or I run out of things to shoot. If death results, so be it.

I also know that overpentration can be an issue, but I will take my chances with that as opposed to little or no penetration. I don't think the bullets we are discussing would rate very high if evaluated by most of the "experts" who write about such things today. There are those who say we should not even consider using a handloaded round for self protection. That might be so, but anything can happen anywhere and things change pretty quickly in this day and time.

If the flag flys for me, I just want to be around to argue after the issue's over. I sincerely hope I am never again in that position. The liability is huge. But I really believe that it is just as important to be able to say that this round is the only round I use, and it is the only round I practice with, and I have practiced this much, firing approximately this many rounds, and I am supremely confident that I know where my rounds are going when I pull the trigger. I did not start this fight, so I am not really responsible for the results (as long as I have not done something that is patently irresponsible or stupid). That may very well not be agreed upon by whatever court I am standing before, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it!!

We each have to decide for ourselves what we are gonna do and what we are gonna do it with, and realize that we will have to accept the consequences of those choices, good or bad. The time to prepare is before the fact. Being ready is a state of mind as much as it is anything else. That is why I like to read and hear as much as I can about these things. Anybody's experience and opinion is worth considering, and sometimes the best thing we can learn is what NOT to do!!

[Robert357]

I thought that I would check out Midway for a picture of the Speer 200 grain and I found an interesting lead bullet with gas check.  Looks quite interesting as well

The 200 grain Speer TMJ is shown at the following
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/117763

Looks like Midway has a 200 grain cast lead bullet commercially available with a gas check in case you can drive it fast.
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/247808

[Badnews Bob]

Take a look at CAST PERFORMANCE bullets they are a sponsor of GBs forums here and make a fine cast bullet, Vera cast a 180 or 187 gr LRNFP GC round that is sweet, I've shot sub1" groups with thease out of my .357 max but they also chamber well and shoot well out of my GP 100 and marlin lever gun I belive he makes a 200grainer also. they are avalible from Midway but he also has a topic section here at GBs look for the ask Veral section.

[Mikey]

Ken in SENM and Robert357:  Fellas, you can get the 200 grain cast SWCs from Colorado Cast Bullets.  They are cast hard enough not to lead up the barrels of my 357s.  These are not designed to expand and probably would not expand or deform unless they impact on heavy bone at top speeds.  They are SWCs that cut a square hole through the target.  

Over 12.4 of WW296 for 1335'/sec from a 357 (longer barrel than mine, I'm certain) or 3.8 gn of WW231 for 770'/sec from a 38 spl (again, in a barrel longer than my snubby's) neither of these loads have ever shown any leading.  

Badnews Bob also provided that Midway sells the 200 gn gas check which might be the one available from Veral Smith - this would also be a good choice and I believe the gas check would prevent leading.  

As for the 200 grain tmj (jacketed) silly-wet bullet - although the pressures listed for both the 38 and the 357 are easily within acceptable pressure limits for both calibers, the 200 grain jacketed bullet may spike the pressures as bit, especially if you have to load it farther down into the case to get it to chamber in your cylinders (I had to do that for my 38 snubbies but not the 357s).  

In addition, the concern of overpenetration is very real with these loads - but, that is exactly why I choose them.  I want the bullet to penetrate through muscle and bone, which is why it makes an excellent hunting application.  Due to it's 'carry', even at lower speeds from the 38 Special, it is documented to have the same effect in defensive shooting situations.  The NYC Police Department documented the testing of the original factory loads (which were softer than the slugs now available) and specified that 'although they possess adequate stopping power they do not penetrate automobile bodies well - I think that was about the time the NYCPD determined that you can't stop a moving vehicle with a 38 Special.  However, then came the 357s armor piercing truncated nose fmj, which went right through them.  Whatcha gonna do?).

Years ago (and I guess this really shows my age) we could purchase case lots of the Winchester 200 gn round nose for next to nothing, take the entire case to the range along with a couple of snubbies and shoot all day long - but, they did lead a bit but not so much that they would screw up the accuarcy.  The fun part was that from a snubbie they would move so slow that you could actually see them move downrange and could adjust your fire to drop them right into the target.  

We used to set up sawn chunks of 4x4 or pieces of nailed together construction lumber and shoot at them with the different weight bullets we were shooting that day - the 158 gn rn would gently rock them off the ledge at 50 yds, the 158 gn swcs would knock them off a bit more affirmatively and the 200s would just flat out knock them off.  There wasn't any t&t penetration but you knew that once you adjusted your fire to hit that chunk of wood, that it would fly off the ledge when you hit it with a 200 grainer.  The only real problem was having to go back down range and set them all up again (LOL).  HTH guys, and thanks.  Mikey.

[Ken in SENM]

Thanks for the reply Mikey, and all the rest of you as well. Good information and sources here. I can tell ya from personal experience that nuthin much that you want to hold in yer hand will shoot down an auto, except of course in the movies. Even as tin canny and plasticky as they are, unless you are very close and hit at a direct angle, there are very few spots where you can penetrate the skin or glass of a motor vehicle and cause any real serious damage. About the best hope is to penetrate the radiator, which can be done if you can hit it, and wait for nature to take its course.

You would be positively amazed at how far a vehicle can go and at what speeds with the right front tire (and even more than one) flat. I could not believe it, and I was right behind the vehicle for many miles. One of the two lads in that vehicle hung out the window and fired back at me at fairly close range with a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with OO buck. It cracked my windshield in several spots, skint the paint off the hood in a couple more, and seriously compromised the whiteness of my underwear! Also caused me to increase my following distance somewhat. We were making about 80 at the time, and their right front tire had been flat for over 10 miles. I was trying to push them into an S curve to maybe get them stopped before they got into a populated area. They made the curve (a gentle one) at 80 and no problem other than lots of sparks. Well, that is another story.

Needless to say, I was glad nothing penetrated the windshield. I have other incidents  of experience as well. Even the bullets you mentioned, Mikey, will not penetrate a motor block as they were advertised to do, except maybe, maybe, at point blank range. Thanks again very much for the info. I will check out the sources listed here for more info.