Cast your own sabbots???

[Thomas Krupinski]

There is a thread going on over on the traditional forum as to what is the meaning of the word traditional as used in muzzleloading.  

After reading and posting on that I started to think a little more about some related things.  I had just acquired a 209x50 barrel with my new (to me) Encore.  Haven't fired that barrel yet, but was planning to use conicals I cast with real black powder, like in some of my sidelocks.

Got to looking thru some catalogs at sabbots and was considering using a sabbot with some of my heavy 310 grain Lee's.  Then I found the price on the bulk sabbots and choked.

Now I know that some folks cast plastic fishing tackle, so has anyone heard or found any body who makes or sells the equipment necessary to cast sabbots?

It may not be possible, but you know the expression about idle minds.

Thanks,

[Ironwood]

There was a thread such as this on another website.  I did a little expermenting with some .44 caliber bullets that I cast of pure lead and Hornaday Sabots.  Since it's been raining almost everyday here in East Texas the range was a mess.  I only fired 3 shots at two targets.  I was amazed that the impact was in the black on the first shot.  Here's what I was shooting.

The bullet was the 255 grain Lyman bullet #429244 without the gas check.  .50 Caliber Hornaday Green Sabot.  85 grains of Goex FFG.  The rifle was a CVA Hawken 1-48 twist with factory iron sights.  Shooting was done off a portable bench at 50 yards with 67 year old eyes.    The cost of bullet metal and sabot was about 10 cents.  When I get a chance I'll chronograph the load.  

The target photos below should be just about actual size.

[RandyWakeman]

Then I found the price on the bulk sabbots and choked.

Buy them in bulk from MMP-- I'm not sure what "choked" you, but it is only a few 'Happy Meals' for a year's supply for most.

[Thomas Krupinski]

Randy,  I could not find a site for MMP showing any buk pricing.  

What kind of pricing for how many can you get and where?  

By the way, I don't buy happy meals, too expensive.

[Ironwood]

Thomas... www.midsouthshooters.com has various brands of bulk Sabots including the MMP brand.  I think they all come in bulk packages of 50.  Price ranges from about $4.50 to about $8.00 per 50.

[RandyWakeman]

Randy,  I could not find a site for MMP showing any buk pricing.  

What kind of pricing for how many can you get and where?  

By the way, I don't buy happy meals, too expensive.

Give Del a call-- they pay the shipping, and the pricing keeps dropping in addition to that as you buy quantity. mmpsabots.com

[Thomas Krupinski]

Randy,

Those are the kind of prices that I am talking about!  What are they made of that makes them so expensive.  That is the kind of pricing that I pay for 500 shotgun wads and for the life of me I can't see what's so special about 50 sabbots that would make them cost that much, other than they got the price up due to a smaller market.

It kind of seem that the sabbots are less sophisticated than the shot wads and should be not that difficult for someone to make at home.  I mean you melt plastic and mold it into another shape.   If someone can cast lizzards and crawdads at home, they might be ablt to cast sabbots if the tools are available.

Now I am frugal (like that much better than cheap) but I don't buy bullets that I can cast and try to make as much stuff as I can.   Maybe there is a market out there for that equipment that some manufacturer has not tapped yet?

[Ironwood]

Tom... Take it from an ol' buyer.  There's a lot more that goes into making a sabot than a worm or crawdad.  I'm sure your shotgun wads as well as sabots are injection molded.  There's no way a company could make one sabot at a time.  Way back in the 60's the price of a plastic injection mold alone was at least $10,000 per mold.  At the same time a pack of Pall Mall's cost 25 cents.  No telling what they cost today.  Also the material used to cast a worm or crawdad is alot different than the plastic that will have to stand up to much more heat and pressure and that's gonna cost ya.  By the time there are as many sabots made as shotgun wads the prices will be very near the same.

Hope this helped you some.  When I get ready to order some more sabots I'm sure going to check out Randy's source.  Sounds like a good deal to me.

[RandyWakeman]

Randy,

Those are the kind of prices that I am talking about!  What are they made of that makes them so expensive.  That is the kind of pricing that I pay for 500 shotgun wads and for the life of me I can't see what's so special about 50 sabbots that would make them cost that much, other than they got the price up due to a smaller market.

The need to withstand up to 40,000 PSI or so - - - depending on application. Smaller market would be the understatement of the year, as there are more AA wads shot in one DAY than muzzleloading sabots in an entire year.

[Thomas Krupinski]

I know what you are talking about with an economy of scale for the sabot market, which probably explains the price.  But I am still trying to figure out what is so special about them that would mean they could not be cast by a hobbyist.

They are what, plastic cups?  I cast minni balls of lead that are also cups, as well as Lee shotgun slugs and hollow point bullets.  The material that is used for the casting media?  The stuff must melt at some tempature and the pressures involved in shotgun loads are not that drastically different from a lot of muzzleloaders.  

If there are kits out there to produce plastic fishing lures, why can't someone who makes these also make one that will cast plastic cups to be called sabots?   Now a company may not have the time to make sabbots 1 or 6 at a time, but a hobbist who casts bullets on that scale would.

Now I am probably just missing it, but I am trying to find a technical reason, other than market forces, that would preclude some manufacturer  from offering the equipment to the hobbist.  We have companies that make lead casting equipment, others that make plastic casting equipment for other hobbies.

Now I am well aware that this would not interest everyone who would use a sabbot and as Randy correctly points out, I years supply is not much.  But for the folks who don't buy factory ammunition and prefer to build their own there might be a nitche for that type of equipment.

[Thomas Krupinski]

Randy,

Those are the kind of prices that I am talking about!  What are they made of that makes them so expensive.  That is the kind of pricing that I pay for 500 shotgun wads and for the life of me I can't see what's so special about 50 sabbots that would make them cost that much, other than they got the price up due to a smaller market.

The need to withstand up to 40,000 PSI or so - - - depending on application. Smaller market would be the understatement of the year, as there are more AA wads shot in one DAY than muzzleloading sabots in an entire year.

Randy, I'll defer to you on the pressures for some of the muzzleloaders, but when you compare the prices for AA and Dusters, you see some big differences.  I think you and Ironwood are correct that it is just the economy of scale for the market price.

[RandyWakeman]

The stuff must melt at some tempature and the pressures involved in shotgun loads are not that drastically different from a lot of muzzleloaders.  

They are quite different-- sealing 12,000 PSI and sealing 35,000 PSI are different worlds. Plus, they have to be loaded from the muzzle. Do you know what the land-to-land bore is of your rifle?

[Thomas Krupinski]

The stuff must melt at some tempature and the pressures involved in shotgun loads are not that drastically different from a lot of muzzleloaders.  

They are quite different-- sealing 12,000 PSI and sealing 35,000 PSI are different worlds. Plus, they have to be loaded from the muzzle. Do you know what the land-to-land bore is of your rifle?

So is the plastic in sabots harder or softer than the soft lead I cast my muzzleloader projectiles?  It stuffs down and it seals.

Again, what is the difference that would preclude this material from being cast by a hobbist?  Are the tolerances of the sabbots more precise than those of lead bullets?  Do they not expand under pressure to fit the bore?
What's the reason other than nobody trying it, or maybe it has been tried and is unsuccessful for who know what reason?

I don't know the answer, but just trying to figure it out.

[RandyWakeman]

So is the plastic in sabots harder or softer than the soft lead I cast my muzzleloader projectiles?  It stuffs down and it seals.

Again, what is the difference that would preclude this material from being cast by a hobbist?  Are the tolerances of the sabbots more precise than those of lead bullets?  Do they not expand under pressure to fit the bore?
What's the reason other than nobody trying it, or maybe it has been tried and is unsuccessful for who know what reason?

Polyethylene, as used in sabot material, is not comparable to lead-- it is a synthetic formulated elastomer, not an element. It also has a memory.

The base of a muzzleloading sabot obturates to effect a gas check. The tolerances are harder to hold in sabots; it is not a matter of simple precision.

Certainly, people have tried it-- from shoving a cheap 28 ga. Claybusters wad down their bores, to casting much more expensive urethane. How much will you pay in time, equipment, and materials to make a ten cent sabot that is unlikely to work?

Brinell hardness is not comparable to durometer:

Shore (Durometer) Hardness Testing of Plastics
 

The hardness testing of plastics is most commonly measured by the Shore (Durometer) test or Rockwell hardness test. Both methods measure the resistance of plastics toward indentation and provide an empirical hardness value that doesn't correlate well to other properties or fundamental characteristics. Shore Hardness, using either the Shore A or Shore D scale, is the preferred method for rubbers/elastomers and is also commonly used for 'softer' plastics such as polyolefins, fluoropolymers, and vinyls. The Shore A scale is used for 'softer' rubbers while the Shore D scale is used for 'harder' ones. Other Shore scales, such as Shore O and Shore H hardness, are rarely encountered by most plastics engineers.

The Shore hardness is measured with an apparatus known as a Durometer and consequently is also known as 'Durometer hardness'. The hardness value is determined by the penetration of the Durometer indenter foot into the sample. Because of the resilience of rubbers and plastics, the indentation reading my change over time - so the indentation time is sometimes reported along with the hardness number. The ASTM test method designation is ASTM D2240 00.  Related methods include ISO 7619 and ISO 868; DIN 53505; and JIS K 6301,  which was discontinued and superceeded by JIS K 6253.

The results obtained from this test are a useful measure of relative resistance to indentation of various grades of polymers. However, the Shore Durometer hardness test does not serve well as a predictor of other properties such as strength or resistance to scratches, abrasion, or wear, and should not be used alone for product design specifications.

[Underclocked]

Thomas, I have wondered the same thing.  I think Del makes them from recycled milk jugs anyway.   :lol:

You can get Claybuster/Harvester sabots at Midsouth for about 7 cents each.  Still too high for what they actually are, but ......

Try some cast boolits in the Encore, you never know.  I've got one in .45 that will handle conicals decently.

[Thomas Krupinski]

Polyethylene, as used in sabot material, is not comparable to lead-- it is a synthetic formulated elastomer, not an element. It also has a memory.

The base of a muzzleloading sabot obturates to effect a gas check. The tolerances are harder to hold in sabots; it is not a matter of simple precision.

Certainly, people have tried it-- from shoving a cheap 28 ga. Claybusters wad down their bores, to casting much more expensive urethane. How much will you pay in time, equipment, and materials to make a ten cent sabot that is unlikely to work?

In bullet casting the alloys used either for soft lead or hard are not a single element, but rather a mixture of different metals.  The lead REALS, T/C Maxi's and Maxi Hunters as well as the round balls I cast also obturate to fit the bore when the propellant gases apply force to them.  

Now I can understand the tollerances being harder to hold in dealing with a plastic material due to expansion, but lead also expands and contracts and is often sized after being cast.  With the plastic materials I don't think it is a matter of precision like lead casting, but rather one of chemestry and engineering.  Both are currently being accomplished by the present manufactures of the material currently used for sabots.  It is just a matter of testing as manufacturers and wildcatters have been doing for a long time.

The last part of what you said is the most important arguement for buying premade sabots.  The time, effort, equipment necessary to make it work although also experienced by people who use premade sabots would be slight compared to making your own (if that equipment and materials are even available somewhere), but that is why I think of it is as a hobby rather than business enterprise.  

If you try to factor a monetary value to it, how much is it worth to have the satisfaction from the accomplishment of doing it yourself.  And you have to weigh that against the expense of failure.  I have a whole bunch of project ideas that failed, but you learn from those experiences and very often you find you can utilize those concepts successfully on another project.

I am just trying to locate someone who has done it in the past or an outfit who is making the equipment and materials.  I may not even try it, just exploring the concept.

[Thomas Krupinski]

Thomas, I have wondered the same thing.  I think Del makes them from recycled milk jugs anyway.   :lol:

You can get Claybuster/Harvester sabots at Midsouth for about 7 cents each.  Still too high for what they actually are, but ......

Try some cast boolits in the Encore, you never know.  I've got one in .45 that will handle conicals decently.

That's what I was going to do is use my cast bullets in that Encore barrel with blackpowder, but I was just exploring the sabots and because I like to make thing, also doing that myself.

[RandyWakeman]

In bullet casting the alloys used either for soft lead or hard are not a single element, but rather a mixture of different metals. The lead REALS, T/C Maxi's and Maxi Hunters as well as the round balls I cast also obturate to fit the bore when the propellant gases apply force to them.

Now I can understand the tollerances being harder to hold in dealing with a plastic material due to expansion, but lead also expands and contracts and is often sized after being cast.

Pure lead and tin, that's it-- both elements. By memory-- I'm referring to expanding / contracting AS it goes down the bore, accomodating rough bores. Del Ramsay will be happy to tell you of the basics.

Milacron can sell you all the equipment you need-- http://plastics.milacron.com/InjectionMM.htm

[Thomas Krupinski]

Randy,

Thanks for those leads, that's a start of what I was looking for.  I will be looking into to them.  

A friend of mine had a commericial casting operation, chain machines and all the other expensive stuff.  It was a business and he produced excellent product.  However on a smaller scale my small hand moulds also produced a comparable product.  Because of his automation he could sell those, but that was much more than a hobby.  I am just trying to see if there can be such a parallel.

Thanks again.

[Underclocked]

At only $23,500 - the http://plastics.milacron.com/Babyplast/Babyplast.htm might be just the ticket.   :eek:

Putting plastic in a barrel just aint right!!......but some of those plastic combos shoot pretty good.  

Designing rifles that incorporate additional consumables (beyond normal load requirements) just aint right either!!....but some of those contraptions shoot very well.

I'm so confused.

Tom, maybe you could try some paper-patched stuff as an alternative to sabots???

[RandyWakeman]

Designing rifles that incorporate additional consumables (beyond normal load requirements) just aint right either

Naturally, no one was more surprised than I when the "Underclocked Joltmaster II" featured "SmartMedia" chips.  :roll:

[Busta]

At only $23,500 - the http://plastics.milacron.com/Babyplast/Babyplast.htm might be just the ticket.   :eek:

Boy, I hope the "Coffee Cup" (upper left of pic), comes with it at that price! :grin:

I used to work in Injection Molding 25 years ago, made lots of interesting stuff! Just wish I would have had Del Ramseys vision, I'll bet I wouldn't be working in the Auto Stamping Industry today. :cry:

That little machine would be pretty cool to have at home though, UC!