Author Topic: Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?  (Read 1868 times)

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Offline BamBams

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Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?
« on: March 20, 2004, 03:34:27 AM »
In my experience, painful as it was, I've encountered some pacifist religious leaders who'd have one turn the other cheek while your house is robbed, your wife get's raped, and your kids are kidnapped, and if you can get a word in edgewise while all that is happening, you are supposed to love the perpetrater enough to let him know that Jesus also loves him and that he shouldn't be doing all this.  If you aren't prepared to do that, then it's also a good idea to pray for him while he's cleaning out your home and allowing you to continue breathing. This doesn't seem to make a whole lot sense does it?

These "leaders" I've spoken with, will sometimes start quoting the scriptures about Peter who cut off the Roman soldier's ear and then Jesus healed it.  When that doesn't fly right, they'll usually move on to saying something like, "Have faith!"  or "Give God a chance to intervene."  Some will stretch it as far as suggesting that I was put on this earth to help that criminal experience salvation!  They've got an answer for everything.

It believe it's in the nature of a "Father" to protect family members from bodily harm, and vengeance indeed belongs to God, but self-defense is our responsibility. Christ taught us to think of God as the "Father." I have a REALLY hard time believing that our heavenly "Father" would hold it against any human "Father" who defended his family or loved ones from harm. There is an old Psalm that I like which speaks about believing in God. The advice of the Psalmist is to watch the animals and then inquire within oneself whether there is really a God. Watching a momma bear, a big buck, a pack of coyotes, etc makes it all quite obvious how things are meant to be when it comes to self/family defense. I seriously doubt that God intended everyone to just lay down and die at the hands of evil.

What do you think?  Are we "living in the flesh" when we defend our loved ones?  Did God allow the crime so the burgler could have something else to feel guilty enough about and pray for salvation?  What's the truth?
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Offline NYH1

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Re: Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2004, 05:50:41 AM »
Quote from: BamBams
In my experience, painful as it was, I've encountered some pacifist religious leaders who'd have one turn the other cheek while your house is robbed, your wife get's raped, and your kids are kidnapped, and if you can get a word in edgewise while all that is happening, you are supposed to love the perpetrater enough to let him know that Jesus also loves him and that he shouldn't be doing all this.  If you aren't prepared to do that, then it's also a good idea to pray for him while he's cleaning out your home and allowing you to continue breathing. This doesn't seem to make a whole lot sense does it?


I would love the "scumbag" so much I would arrange the meeting between him and Jesus, "Bang Bang". I'll defend my wife and kids in what ever way I have too. I won't apologize for doing it either.  :excuseme:

Quote from: BamBams
These "leaders" I've spoken with, will sometimes start quoting the scriptures about Peter who cut off the Roman soldier's ear and then Jesus healed it.


Well Jesus can try to heal his "double ought buckshot" wounds, I'll think it'll be a little to late by then, but he can try. :wink:

Quote from: BamBams
When that doesn't fly right, they'll usually move on to saying something like, "Have faith!"  or "Give God a chance to intervene."


I have a lot of faith, I shoot really well. :grin: God had his chance to "intervene" now its my turn! :evil:

Quote from: BamBams
They've got an answer for everything.


Or so they think. :eek:

Quote from: BamBams
It believe it's in the nature of a "Father" to protect family members from bodily harm, and vengeance indeed belongs to God, but self-defense is our responsibility.


Amen to that!!!

Quote from: BamBams
Christ taught us to think of God as the "Father." I have a REALLY hard time believing that our heavenly "Father" would hold it against any human "Father" who defended his family or loved ones from harm.


If he does then what kind of god is he?

Quote from: BamBams
 Did God allow the crime so the burgler could have something else to feel guilty enough about and pray for salvation?  What's the truth?


I don't think there is any truth in this!
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Offline Jerry Lester

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Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2004, 07:12:28 AM »
It's definately a touchy subject, and I know a lot of people vary in their feelings from kill'em all, and let God sort'em out, to love, and peace no matter what somebody is doing to them.

I'm about as passive as they come when it comes to things like people short changing me, bad buisness, bad service, or things like that.

A direct threat though, is a whole different matter to me. I'll sorta let a situation play out when it involves me alone against a threat. I'll give the guy, guys, or what ever every option to re-think their intentions, but I'll strike like lightning the second I see that a confrontation is inevitable. I have no qualms what so ever about throwing the first punch, or firing the first shot.

A threat against my loved ones or friends puts an attacker in a grave danger indeed. I'm not gonna play around with moral, legal, or any other implications. If a man is brazen enough to make feel that my loved ones are in danger, then he's pretty much told me that he's ready to see what's beyond the grave. If he's not armed, he's headed for permanant injuries that will remind him of just how stupid he was(if he survives at all). If he's armed he's gonna die, plain and simple as that.

As far as that goes; If/when I saw another family, or otherwise helpless person being threatened, I apply the same rules as if it was my own family.

Nothing makes me sicker than innocent people having to be afraid of low life scum.

Offline RIFLERANGER

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« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2004, 07:52:40 AM »
Bambams et.al., what kind of "Father" would sit idly by and watch 6,000,000 of his chosen ones and 7,000,000 others be murdered by a raving lunatic and his masses.

I believe in G-d almighty with all my heart and soul, and I am positive that He had his reasons for allowing this atrocity to go unchecked, as well as all the human crap before and since.

As far as defending myself and my wife and 4 children, this "father" holds no qualms about killing any dirtbag that enters my castle to bring crime inside my four walls.

I will let G-d teach criminals anything they might need to know after they are 6 feet under.

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Offline Shorty

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Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2004, 01:51:47 PM »
Christianity only works if everyone is a Christian.  
'Reminds me of a quote by George Bernard Shaw, when asked what he thought of Christians, he said, "I don't know, I never met one." :shock:

If Christians were to practice Christianity, the Moslems would have a hay-day.  The Israelis have no such qualms (about fighting back).  They live in the real world!  :wink:

Offline dodgecity

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Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2004, 02:59:19 PM »
I'm a Christian, and I see no conflict between my faith and acting in war or in self defense. The Bible says we are to live in peace with all men, so much as possible, but, some folks just won't let you.

Offline ihuntbucks

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Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2004, 05:10:15 PM »
God made man a free morale adgent.He came him the abilitly to think and reason;unlike any other creature on earth.Thus he gave you enough sense to know right from wrong and the sense to act on certain situations.He gave you sense not to do stupid stuff.All the faith in God in the world wouldn't save you if you jumped out a 10 story window,or walked in front of a speeding bus,ect...Some people are just down-right stupid as in the case of the fellow in this case.I bet God is just scathing His head over this one  :lol:                      Rick
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Offline handirifle

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Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2004, 07:04:17 PM »
There are some interesting posts here.  First, let me state I am a believer in Jesus Christ as my savior and Lord.  In Him is my salvation.  That said I find these posts curious.  Why would one who claims to believe in God with his whole heart not spell out His name?

God does tell us to turn the other cheek, but his is referring to presecution as Christians.  We are allowed to defend ourselves and our families, but, He does bless those greatly that can bless and pray for their enemies.  If I kill in the name of self defence for me or my family and it is wrong, I'll answer to Him for it.

Christ himself was the perfect example of this when he laid his life out for us on the cross.  He did not commit suicide, but allowed us to murder him, but only after beating him beyond recognition and beyond what any normal human could take and still live.  Yet he still asked the Father to "forgive them, for they know not what they do".  Sound familiar?

How could a "Father" allow 6,000,000 of His children to die and do nothing?  Believe me he hasn't.  His judgement for those will come in His time, which is not far away and woe to those whom He judges.  But God is also allowing Satan his time on this earth, and Satan's personal rule hasn't even begun yet.  You want to see Hell on earth?, wait till The antichrist (Satan) takes rule himself.

God never promised believers would not suffer and die, in fact, he told us just the opposite.  He has told us we would suffer greatly for His namesake.

As far a George Bernard Shaw goes if he expected Christians to be perfect people and therefor by that he claims to never have met one then he has missed the whole point.  We are all called to follow Christ and will eventually be perfect but for now we live with imperfect sinful human nature.  That is until Christ's glorious second coming where we (believers) shall all be called to meet Him and be made complete.

Why do you think the muslems hate us so much already?  Because we have been spreading the Christian gospel throughout the muslem world and it is a doctrine that teaches the truth.  They do not want to hear it and will kill to try and silence it.  Like it or not, that's the way it is.

Just for the record, God did give us a free will to choose and He would prefer we all believe, be He knows all will not and those that do not shall be condemed to die.  His words and mine.

I'm sure someone disagrees with me but I have been called to tell others the gospel and hopefully that is what I have done.  My wish is not to offend or ridicule, but draw you near the Christ himself in hopes for your salvation too.
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Offline RIFLERANGER

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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2004, 12:40:58 AM »
Quote from: handirifle
 Why would one who claims to believe in God with his whole heart not spell out His name?


Us Hebrews generally do that out of respect to His name in all forms.
Strange, yes, but that is how I was raised.  Something to do with not taking His name in vain under any circumstances.

Hope that helps.

BTW, and FWIW, I personally believe we are and have been living in the time of your antichrist.  It may not seem as apocolyptic as depicted, but I have no doubt that evil of the last 1000 plus years is the work of a dark character.
I also believe it will get much worse progressively.

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Offline handirifle

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Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2004, 04:58:20 AM »
rifleranger
Ah yes I should have thought of that.  I knew that was the Hebrew custom and it slipped my mind.  I do respect that.  My appologies.

As for the end time, I respectfully disagree, but that (New Testament) is where we have a big difference of opinion.  No prob.

I agree that it's gonna get worse and, yes, there is a dark force doing it.  He just hasn't been allowed to unleash his full dark power yet.  Woe to those alive when he does.  

The Hebrews will still get another chance to acknowledge Christ before His return.  You are still His chosen people.  You don't have to accept what I say now, just please remember it.
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Offline mellow_1

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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2004, 05:47:29 AM »
First.... In the bible it says..... if a robber should come in the night and he should be struck so he dies no blood should be shed for him...or something to that effect. can't remember exactly where though.
As far as the mulslim / christian thing goes... true muslims or christians do not hate eachother. In fact I very strongly believe in God and one of my friends is a muslim who takes her religion very seriously ..... her beliefs are extremly simular to those of christians.
The idea that muslims hate christians is false..... Those people who hate distort there teachings to allow for it....The peolpe who spread hate are only the extremists, wich we also have here that call themselves christians.
Neither religion as far as I have ever known teaches hate... only love and faith.... The muslims worship the same God as we do.
There holy book is simular to the old testament of the bible.
Peace my friends.

Offline BamBams

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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2004, 06:14:14 AM »
Well, it looks like I'm not too alone in my manner of thinking.  I honestly never wrestled over this one though.  It just annoys me how some people become "so spiritual that they no earthly good" to anybody.

I guess it's kind of like Martial Arts training.  I've been to schools that try to get you to buy into their "spiritual" philosophies at the same time they teach you some skills, but in the BEST one I ever attended, the Sifu used to say, "If you want religion, then go to church, but we're here to learn self-defense.

What I'm really beginning to realize lately is how some politicians (need I name a party?) also want to make the vast majority of citizens into harmless, impotent  "sheep."

Here's my conclusion so far:  It's all about people CONTROL no matter where it comes from - church, state, whatever.  When someone wants to take away your God given testosterone - don't let them have it.

Just yesterday, we had a drunk guy try to remove a pistol from the gun shop by physical force.  When he started yelling, I called 911 on my cell phone and then came outside the office to defend the clerk and the customers.  All I had to do was put my hand on my holster and say, "Put down the gun!"  If I had not done so, we would have had an intoxicated customer roaming around angry with a pistol.  I also got to meet the most beautiful female police officer I've seen in a long, long time.

So where was God in all of this?  In my love for my co-workers, and in those blue eyes of hers.  *smiling*
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Offline NYH1

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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2004, 06:26:18 AM »
Quote from: handirifle


 I have been called to tell others the gospel and hopefully that is what I have done.


Really, who called ya? :?:  :?:  :?:
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Offline BamBams

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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2004, 06:37:10 AM »
Oh come on guys! Let's not turn this thread into something it was never intended to be and subsequently make me feel like crap for asking a simple, but thoughtful, question. Be respectful to one another please.
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Offline papajohn428

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« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2004, 07:04:51 AM »
Only man can take something so simple and make it all so complicated.  Take the animal kingdom, they don't have all this intellect to screw things up, they have instinct, and there is no gray area whatsoever.  If you appear to be a threat to a wolf pup, or a bear cub, and the She-wolf or Mother Bear is around, just kiss your butt goodbye.  You won't have it for long.  No agonizing, no second guessing.  They'll just very SIMPLY kill you.

Threaten me, or mine, and you'll get the same response.  SIMPLE.

God will understand.

PJ
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Offline handirifle

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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2004, 03:59:05 PM »
NYH
I as well as all Christians have been "called" by God to proclaim the gospel.  It's called "The Great commission" where Christ said just before ascending into Heavan, "Go ye therefore to all nations preaching the gospel....."  That is where we all got our calling.  No need to be defensive.  I have been called to tell it, if you don't want to hear it. that's your choice, no problem.  I am not called to stuff it down yours or anyone throat, just to tell it.

No problem for me since it seems you do not wish to hear it, I'll just talk to those that do. :grin:

BAM BAM it was a simple and thoughtful question but unfortunately a complex answer.  Life is like that.  As far as humans making it complex, well that is why God placed us above the animals, because we can reason.  I guess we don't all reason the same way :grin:  and that is OK sometimes too.  The question was asked and most of the replies seemed opposed to the Christian view on the topic so I thought I'd try balance it.  Quite a few here do not want to hear both sides apparently.  That's OK too.

Mellow 1
I partailly agree with you but that was never the topic so we don't need to go there.
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Offline NYH1

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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2004, 04:24:04 PM »
Quote from: handirifle
NYH
I as well as all Christians have been "called" by God to proclaim the gospel.  It's called "The Great commission" where Christ said just before ascending into Heavan, "Go ye therefore to all nations preaching the gospel....."  That is where we all got our calling.  No need to be defensive.  I have been called to tell it, if you don't want to hear it. that's your choice, no problem.  I am not called to stuff it down yours or anyone throat, just to tell it.

No problem for me since it seems you do not wish to hear it, I'll just talk to those that do. :grin:


I don't understand how someone can be "called" by someone they've never talked to before. I'm not picking on anyone, it just seems weird to me. I really do respect people's right to worship.
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Offline handirifle

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Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2004, 07:37:05 PM »
Newyork hunter
I can understand the confusion.  It becomes a matter of faith and believing in Gods word in its entirety.  Because of His word I believe Christ died on the cross to pay he price for sins I and everyone else in the world have or ever will commit.  Because of this belief, I also believe the rest of what the bible teaches me.  When Christ spoke to the deciples about the Great Commission, He was referring to ALL His deciples.  I am one of those and therefor I am called.  No I haven't heard Him speak in a voice to me, but I do read what He has commanded us as believers to do.

Many think that as Christians, we are all called to be meek and mild mannerd (SP?) but this is not true when it comes to standing up for our faith.  It's hard to be a believer many times because the temptation to conform to the worlds views and desires, but we are "called (there's that word again) out of this world to follow Him and His word.

The Great Commission was one of those "callings".
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Offline RIFLERANGER

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« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2004, 09:07:54 PM »
So Handirifle, my question to you is, if someone armed broke into your home with larceny and possibly something more evil in his heart, how would you deal with it ??
Would you shoot first, ask questions later as many of us seem inclined to do, or would you pray that you and your family get out the situation alive and unharmed and hope for the best ?

And as to the "second chance" thing, my wife, raised devoutly Catholic (don't ask !) and I debate the whole Jesus thing all the time, in a loving way of course.  
The Christian philosophy as a whole has some valid points, but you would have to believe in order to believe, if that makes any sense.
We usually laugh it off because all we have is ancient writings to live by, but the bottom line of what G-d laid out for us, is nothing more than being good to one another.  If that is done, everything else will fall into place.
Yes, there were some secondary issues, which were covered by the 10 commandments, but it all essentially boils down in keeping our belief in G-d pure, and being kind and loving to one another.
On the other hand, it appeared that G-d knew full well what our future held with regard to our behavior, having free will and all, and made allowances for retributions (penalties, if you will) for all manner of crimes that could and would be committed.
And of course, G-d was correct in his knowledge of the path of mankind, and I am sure of two things;
He knew full well that Adam and Eve would both eat from the forbidden fruit, and that giving man free will would cause pain, suffering, and death until the time that the Messiah comes.
Hence all knowing, if you ask me.
Ranger
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Offline handirifle

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Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2004, 09:44:01 PM »
Rifleranger
First, I'd deal with him as he intended to deal with my family.  Christ tells us that insofar that it is up to us be at peace with all men.  In my mind that means do not provoke them into it.  but if attacked I believe I am justified in defending my family.

You bring up a very good point.  With God being omniscient, and he is, then He knew that when given a choice mand would sin.  Knowing that, did he set us up for failure?  Cannot answer that one, but, He did know Adam and Eve would sin and thus make conditions for them to remove the sin, thus sacrifices.

That said, He also knew that men would need a greater sacrifice than animals to bring them back into His graces.  Thus He laid out the foundation for our eternal salvation with the only sacrifice capable of removing our sins forever.  The sacrifice of His only son, the only sinnless man to ever walk the earth.  Born of a virgin, from the seed of David, in Bethlahem, as fortold in the old testament and as prommised in Genesis, wes Jesus, the King of Kings, the true Son of God.  Christ who willingly laid out his life that mankind might have the eternal sacrifice and thus be able to commune with God.  The only thing He asks in return is that we confess and repent of our sins, and believe in Christ as the Son of God, the Savior, OUR PERSONAL SAVIOR, and the Redeemer.  That is the first thing we must do, then we are commanded to live our lives as you describe, at least as much as we humanly can.  When we do not we must confess our sins and He is faithful to forgive them.

God has full knowledge of what we will do, but wants us, in our own free will to follow His commandments.
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Offline RIFLERANGER

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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2004, 08:06:32 AM »
Handi, I am glad you answered as you did.
My mother-in-law, the devout practicing Catholic that she is, would, as it is said, "offer the other cheek".  She would no doubt get on her knees and pray if her home was ever to become a crime scene.
She is full of love and prayers and forgiveness, etc., and I love her for all that is good in her, but I can't convince her that there are times when violence is indeed called for.
Even my wife would use our home defense shotgun if it were ever necessary to do so.
As to religious beliefs, I was always raised never to discuss and debate religion with anyone I wanted to remain friends with, so let us agree to disagree on who the Messiah is and all that surrounds him.
Let us also agree that given free will, if all mankind willfully chose good versus evil, this world would be paradise on earth.
Something to think about.
Now, if we could only find a polite way to rid the planet of racists and radicals.
Ranger
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Offline MSP Ret

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« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2004, 08:47:28 AM »
Hey Ranger, I am a catholic, if not devout, however I am a devout Christian. Couple that with a lifetime of contact sports and 32+ years in law enforcement, local, state, and a special appointment as a Federal officer/US Marshall while undercover drugs and assigned to the DEA for a specific assignment. This after an honorable discharge from the US Navy.  I must state I am all for turning the other cheek, of course it would not be to allow the scum-bag, who I am sure I would love as a Christian brother, to strike me again, but more so that he would not see me smiling as I reached out to help pick up his unconcious carcass from the pavement. I will pray for all those who would not try to defend themselves now, that I am there when they need defending or that they learn to do it themselves....<><.... :grin:
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline Mauser

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« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2004, 09:27:27 AM »
As a believer in a supreme being, I would do the POS a favor and try to send him to meet HIM.

Offline BIGBOREFAN

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« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2004, 09:41:11 AM »
I would personally turn the other check after I give him a load of 16 gauge #6's. I'll continue to turn the check after every time I pull the trigger. :-D  If someone breaks in my house for anything it is a open invitaion for them to see God or the other guy personally, and it does not matter which to me. But personally I hope it is the other guy because I really liked the movie Little Nicky. You know the movie were the Devil is shoving a pinnapple up Hitlers ***. :twisted:  Kinda like to see every bad guy get that treatment. :)  Yes I know what my signature says about faith. But turning the cheek as nothing to do with that.


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Offline MSP Ret

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Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2004, 10:25:45 AM »
Remember hearing that old WW I phrase, "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition"?,  well those were simpler times with a way with the truth, and one thing to remember about the truth is, "The truth shall set you Free". Now my son, try to break into my home, or try to hurt my family, and prepare to "rest in peace"....<><.... :-)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline BIGBOREFAN

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Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2004, 10:29:45 AM »
Amen for the ''rest in peace''


BBF
LETS GO STEELER'S. BIG BEN JUST KEEPS ON TICKEN. STEELER'S IN JACKSONVILLE THIS YEAR!

Offline Major

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« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2004, 11:12:27 AM »
Quote from: BIGBOREFAN
Amen for the ''rest in peace''


BBF



Rest in peace or rest in piecesÂ… both work for me!!  
If someone comes into my home looking for trouble, they WILL find it.                          :gun4:
Deactivated as trouble maker

Offline handirifle

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Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2004, 02:38:10 PM »
Rifleranger
Your mother-in-law is a strong person.  Believe me it takes more strength to do what she says she would do than to retaliate.  I don't think my protector instincts would let me do that.  She is not wrong for what she does and it might cost her, I pray not, but glad to hear you respect her for it.

OK we agree to disagree, no problem.  Like I say, I'm called to tell not stuff.


I'd love to be a fly on the wall of your living room when you 3 chat though :grin:   Bet there is some very interesting discussion there.



Hang in there.
God, Family, and guns, in that order!

Offline ironglow

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Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2004, 03:32:00 PM »
Hi Ranger;
  Been looking for you since MT went moribund! Welcome to Graybeard's.
     Handirifle did a great job of explaining my theological roots also.
  Naturally, realizing the jewish roots to my own faith...I carry, as many Bible-believing Christians do..a real respect for Jews and Israel!
    Some "Christians" tend to be too soft, but I know very few of those.
Please note: I tend to associate with Christians that BELIEVE the Bible.
  Thnere are some that claim the title, but really don't fully believe His word...they like to be eclectic about the Bible...to pick and/or choose what parts they like...That type "Christian' is long on love...short on justice. Our God is a God of love , but also a God of justice...real Christians try to emulate him in every way!
   They are more like Mike Dukakis than Christians!
   Remember how he couldn't answer when he was asked about what he would do if his wife were being raped!
   
       Let me give you a couple verses that cover just such a situation; both New Testament..

  Luke 11:21
       When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace.

   Ephesians5:25
        Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her.
     (that is, he died in her defense)

   It is the general agreement in any Christian circles that I deal with, that God expects a man to defend certain things...such as, his faith, his family and his country!

   Yes NYHunter; I too have been called upon to deliver the Gospel; if you don't like the music...spin your dial!
   I won't force my message on anyone, nor do I expect them to attempt to curtail my 1st ammendment rights!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline handirifle

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Spirituality vs. Self/Family Defense?
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2004, 06:20:41 PM »
Ironglow
Welcome brother!  It's good to see so many believers.  I've been asked to moderate a site that is geared towards just the kind of subject matter we have dealt with here and I jumped on the chance.  I feel honered to have been asked.  I'll post the site link in my signature when it is up and running.  Shouldn't be too long, I hope.
God, Family, and guns, in that order!