Author Topic: Rem. Win. Ruger owners, interested in new Silhouettte Game?  (Read 2074 times)

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Offline K2

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Rem. Win. Ruger owners, interested in new Silhouettte Game?
« on: March 23, 2004, 07:47:34 AM »
Hi guys

I love to shoot silhouette and do so primarily with handguns but enjoy rifle as well.  I have been reading thru many of the rifle posts and find the same basic disagreements between the equipment racers and the off the shelf guys here as we have in pistol silhouette.  

Racers and non racers don't seem to be able to play well together.  The racers think the over the counter guys are not serious shooters and the over the counter guys think the racers just want to run the cost up as high as possible.  

The sport is plenty big enough for both and I am considering starting a brand new Silhouette association to handle the issues I have with the current games.  

A little background.  4 years ago I talked to the IHMSA president and asked why we didn't have an air pistol division with a few (2) categories where a young family or someone who didn't want to spend his entire paycheck could compete on equal footing.  He told me we didn't cause no one wrote any rules to make it happen.  Well I wrote some articles explaining why I felt it was needed in the sport and also wrote the rules with a $150 MSRP on what we called production (the two basic categories).  You had to use the gun with the sights, trigger barrel etc. that it came with.  Some interesting things happened.  Predictably there were those who said these cheap guns were junk and weren't worth shooting but a few like myself proved that good scores could be had even at this low level of equipment.  Freestyle perfect scores started to happen and that got the attention of more folks and the game took off.  

I found that I could run with the big dogs of the game given equal equipment, and predictably the racers got involved and now are screwing up a good thing with $140 aftermarket sights now being allowed on a sub $150 gun which seems silly to me but I am not a racer type.  

Long story short would you be interested in a rifle silhouette game that the target market was stock model 70's 700's Savages and Rugers etc. with a limit on the scope power and a moratorium on rule changes except say every 5 years?  For Small Bore rifle I would use the 3/8ths size targets instead of the 1/5 scale, and have a class for 10/22's Marlin 60's and guns of this type (no target barrels only barrels that have the manufactures name stamped on the gun etc.)  This new association would be for rifle, pistol, cowboy silhouette, muzzleloader, and BPCR.  People who simply enjoy shooting can in fact get along.

What I have found is that the competiton is very good even at a budget level of equipment, and the best still raise to the top but the top is within the reach of any who want to put in the practice and not limited to those who can spend like drunken sailors.

Let me know what you think, this would be a family fun oriented sport (with a jr. division with simplified format) where equipment debates and all the stuff that goes with it would not be happening.  The game will be set up so dual sanction with the other silhouette sports out there could also happen at the same match and could provide a much needed pressure relief valve for all the name calling that occurs due to rule changes and equipment racing.  Good for all in that more shoots at any match help keep the costs down for everyone.

Let me know what you think! :D

Offline davei

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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2004, 10:51:01 AM »
they way i figure it we have to spend our money somewhere... might as well be on a nice piece of equipment.  and if i am going to spend my time at the range i would rather do it with a well built piece of equipment that allows me to shoot to the best of my ability than shoot with an piece of horse crap that i am not proud of and is the limiting factor in my performance.  that is the whole point of having good equipment.  you take the limitations of the rifle out of the equation and truly have a competition between the shooters.

and...  spending like a drunken fool doesn't guarantee anything but a pissed off wife or girlfriend.  there are more than a lot of wonderfully expensive and well built rifles out there shooting 12/40.  thanks for the offer but i think i'll dance with who brung me.
dave imas

Offline Hornetx60

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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2004, 12:53:18 PM »
Akihmsa, You know me from my 10 years in ihmsa, I moved on to NRA rifle silhouette for a new challenge last year.  One thing that remains the same in both sports is the great people. But then things start to separate.  The top shooters in this sport will travel the country and some the world shooting matches. The level of competition at the top here is much tougher. Now don't get me wrong I'm not putting down IHMSA. I had a lot of fun while it lasted. But these are just some things I have seen since I have switched over to NRA rifle Silh. These shooters are not afraid to spend money on equipment or ammo. So the idea of a inexpensive category with less than the best equipment isn't all that appealing to all that many .
   personally. I work a lot of overtime through the winter and spring so I can afford all of my toys and trips, without having to settle for second best equipment. It will always be a money race and some will never get over that fact!

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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2004, 12:58:46 PM »
That works for me Dave.  I am looking for imput at this stage and suspect that there people out there who don't think their 10/22's or lever action rifles, or even their Model 700's or Model 70's are a piece of horse crap and that a competition can be built around them.  Good luck to you regardless of the road you travel ;~)  Shooters are a very diverse group and one size usually doesn't fit all.  

Anyone else have other ideas?
Quote from: davei
they way i figure it we have to spend our money somewhere... might as well be on a nice piece of equipment.  and if i am going to spend my time at the range i would rather do it with a well built piece of equipment that allows me to shoot to the best of my ability than shoot with an piece of horse crap that i am not proud of and is the limiting factor in my performance.  that is the whole point of having good equipment.  you take the limitations of the rifle out of the equation and truly have a competition between the shooters.

and...  spending like a drunken fool doesn't guarantee anything but a pissed off wife or girlfriend.  there are more than a lot of wonderfully expensive and well built rifles out there shooting 12/40.  thanks for the offer but i think i'll dance with who brung me.
dave imas

Offline K2

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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2004, 01:11:39 PM »
Hi Bill
The AIR game proved to me that a good competition can be built around anything and the best shooters raise to the top regardless.  I am shifting my focus in the IHMSA to plain ole Standing where the equipment makes the least amount of difference and that will keep me interested in the IHMSA for a few more years, but the racers own the freestyle events and that is fine.  Different sports have different amounts that must be spent to be in the running.  In go carting it is about $7 to 10K in top fuel drag racing $100,000 isn't enough.  One must pick what they like and can realistically afford.  The competition is still tough at any level.  

I don't expect this new game to appeal to all and as I told Dave, shoot what makes you happy.  I wish you the best of luck in your new game as well and suspect you will do pretty good in it as you are a good shot!  

All the shooting sports will gain as more people from various walks of life participate in them.  
Quote from: Hornetx60
Akihmsa, You know me from my 10 years in ihmsa, I moved on to NRA rifle silhouette for a new challenge last year.  One thing that remains the same in both sports is the great people. But then things start to separate.  The top shooters in this sport will travel the country and some the world shooting matches. The level of competition at the top here is much tougher. Now don't get me wrong I'm not putting down IHMSA. I had a lot of fun while it lasted. But these are just some things I have seen since I have switched over to NRA rifle Silh. These shooters are not afraid to spend money on equipment or ammo. So the idea of a inexpensive category with less than the best equipment isn't all that appealing to all that many .
   personally. I work a lot of overtime through the winter and spring so I can afford all of my toys and trips, without having to settle for second best equipment. It will always be a money race and some will never get over that fact!

Offline Hornetx60

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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2004, 02:17:02 PM »
The biggest problem isn't the money race with new shooters, as a lot of people think. It is getting new shooters to get over their fear and ego about not doing well right away.  Very few new shooters can walk up to the line and shoot Master scores, but for some reason  a lot of them think they should be able to.  Then many will find excuses to not return, rather than practice and earn their way to those upper classes.

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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2004, 04:15:36 PM »
Silhouette or any offhand shooting is a tough game no doubt about it.  It took me a few years to get to the AAA and International levels with lots of practice between matches.  

One thing I have witnessed first hand is when the top scores are shot with really far out looking equipment the new fellows think that only top guns will get them where they think they want to be.  The big draw with the AIR game is that we showed them that even low buck stuff can work for the good shooters and that is something that can be very convincing to help a new guy stick with it for awhile as his skills improve.  With the low dollar 10/22's marlin 60's and such when used in conjunction with the 3/8ths scale targets the game is still tough but doable for these guns and as I have found, competition is competition.  This will not appeal to all but if it appeals to enough then it is worth doing.  
For a real world small game hunter the 3/8ths targets are excellent practice with what many people actually hunt with, the budget priced .22s.

I know a lot of shooters don't think too much of cowboy action shooting and I admit it is not my cup of tea, but it does get people out and shooting and that in itself is a worthwhile thing.  There are a lot more SASS members than silhouette shooters right now.  

I am proceeding slowly right now working on the rules and looking into forming a new association and all the work that goes with that.  If it gets enough positive response I will push forward, if not no big deal nothing ventured nothing learned.    
Quote from: Hornetx60
The biggest problem isn't the money race with new shooters, as a lot of people think. It is getting new shooters to get over their fear and ego about not doing well right away.  Very few new shooters can walk up to the line and shoot Master scores, but for some reason  a lot of them think they should be able to.  Then many will find excuses to not return, rather than practice and earn their way to those upper classes.

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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2004, 04:18:08 PM »
Quote from: Hornetx60
The biggest problem isn't the money race with new shooters, as a lot of people think. It is getting new shooters to get over their fear and ego about not doing well right away.  Very few new shooters can walk up to the line and shoot Master scores, but for some reason  a lot of them think they should be able to.  Then many will find excuses to not return, rather than practice and earn their way to those upper classes.

VERY WELL SAID!
I could not said it better, yes many new shooters think that they are at disadvantage because of equipment and not their skills, which is complete... you know what....
I strongly feel that if at any given day we would switch equipmnet between Masters and B or A shooters the score would not be so much different, Master migh not be able to shoot 38s and 39s anymore but their scores will be well above 30s where on the other hand B and A shooters will be shooting scores within their classes- gaining only few extra points,
So you make your judgment.
I did not upgrade my equipment until i was shooting high AAA and low Master, was I buying points? - maybe....  - we can find the answer to it at the range where I will switch equipment with you, and we might take a few shots.
I am not trying to be a smart #$@, just trying to prove my point, there is sooo much talk about unfairness of the custom equipment to the new shooter etc, which I think is a crap!, I think that we as a shooters improve with time and so should our equipment, so if there is someone that is shooting 10 or 15 years.... welll he had time to build his arsenal, so as a new shooter I can look into him as my goal
I remember somewhere I was reading abpout a shooter shooting olympics and something happened to his rifle so he had to borrow one, and he said " would it not be something to win with a borrowed gun" - very impressive - what is more impressive is that he did it - HE WON!
Have a good time at the range - thats already 20/40
shootingpaul

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Offline K2

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« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2004, 04:59:42 PM »
Hi Paul

I sure don't take your comments as being smart assed at all.  I think we are all in agreement that a top "Standard" rifle shooter would be a top shooter in a category that limited equipment to what americans own by the millions don't you?  (10/22's Model 700's, 70's, 7's,)

Here is the big question: Can a ligitimate competiton be based on lower cost equipment?  That really is it in a nutshell.  I think the answer is yes.  Who I need to hear from are the fellows who have been wanting a lower priced silhouette game.  If I don't hear from them then that will be my answer.  At that point you will be able to say for a fact "quit whining and start practicing!"  A minor league if you will could be a good thing for the guy who jsut can't handle the fact that he just fired 40 rounds and ended up with 3X's on his score card ;~)  

The up side for the current silhouette sports is a feeder group of people that tried Silhouette and liked it enough to say hey I want to shoot the smaller targets or see just how far I can take the game.  More shooters regardless is good for the shooting sports.  It could be that the racers are correct and the others just are looking for an excuse not to show up.   Time will tell.
Quote from: shootingpaul
Quote from: Hornetx60
The biggest problem isn't the money race with new shooters, as a lot of people think. It is getting new shooters to get over their fear and ego about not doing well right away.  Very few new shooters can walk up to the line and shoot Master scores, but for some reason  a lot of them think they should be able to.  Then many will find excuses to not return, rather than practice and earn their way to those upper classes.

VERY WELL SAID!
I could not said it better, yes many new shooters think that they are at disadvantage because of equipment and not their skills, which is complete... you know what....
I strongly feel that if at any given day we would switch equipmnet between Masters and B or A shooters the score would not be so much different, Master migh not be able to shoot 38s and 39s anymore but their scores will be well above 30s where on the other hand B and A shooters will be shooting scores within their classes- gaining only few extra points,
So you make your judgment.
I did not upgrade my equipment until i was shooting high AAA and low Master, was I buying points? - maybe....  - we can find the answer to it at the range where I will switch equipment with you, and we might take a few shots.
I am not trying to be a smart #$@, just trying to prove my point, there is sooo much talk about unfairness of the custom equipment to the new shooter etc, which I think is a crap!, I think that we as a shooters improve with time and so should our equipment, so if there is someone that is shooting 10 or 15 years.... welll he had time to build his arsenal, so as a new shooter I can look into him as my goal
I remember somewhere I was reading abpout a shooter shooting olympics and something happened to his rifle so he had to borrow one, and he said " would it not be something to win with a borrowed gun" - very impressive - what is more impressive is that he did it - HE WON!
Have a good time at the range - thats already 20/40

Offline davei

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« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2004, 07:25:26 PM »
i don't think you really need a "minor league" or some other organization to divert our already diminishing population.  there are clubs at this time that set up pistol targets for kids or new shooters.  i should think it a much easier transition if they are shooting side by side with the regular targets.   and...  i apologize...  i was not referring to the 700's or model 70's as pieces of crap.  it was suggested that we shoot the competitions with $150 rifles...  they may be fine for shooting a tree rat or two but they will be a limitation when attempting to hit regulation targets off-hand.  to become a competent silhouette shooter means that you must work on your physical shooting skills, work on your mental skills, work on your mental toughness, work on our physical fitness, find ammunition that will shoot a reasonable group at 100 meters, find a scope that will repeat, find time to practice, and have some significant level of committment.  you address only one aspect of the challenge.  as Nomad suggested in another thread, and i completely agree, in the long run, the rifle is the least expensive.

with all that nonsense said, to suggest that things are peachy in the rifle silhouette world is ridiculous.  we definitely have experienced a loss of community and ranges in recent years.  we have danced around the challenges in the past but never really nailed it down and certainly haven't come up with a resolution that would be effective and deployable.  someone help me out here...  do we have discussions around these issues during our national committee meetings or am i just plain stupid to ask such a question?
dave

Offline cslcAl

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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2004, 01:57:41 AM »
We have had here at CSLC for many years a Deer Hunter class. This is a non NRA sanctioned purely for fun bring your deer rifle and get started in competitive shooting event. The rules are simple. No magnums; 2lb. trigger limit; 10 power scope limit; and no sight corrections. This is a gteat way to get new shooters. We even gave an award at the Pa. State tournament when we hosted it.
    It is interesting though that most of these newbies who are interested will be back the next month with some sort of real silhouette rig to shoot in the sanctioned classes.
Al Foust

Offline tedfl

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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2004, 05:49:22 AM »
Gentlemen, I am going to throw in my 2 cents for what it is worth. In the world of silhouette shooting, I am an outsider looking in. I have belonged to various gun clubs, the NRA, the NMLRA for over 40 years and I had never heard of silhouette shooting until two years ago. I have never seen anything in the gun books you buy at the magazine racks nothing in the NRA magazines that come with the NRA subscription nor anything you see on the TV sporting shows about silhouette shooting. The only information I find on the subject of silhouette shooting comes from the internet, mainly this web site. Says a lot for promotion of the sport. But back to the subject. I have seen this same thing happen in Archery. I started out as a beginner in the bottom class and worked my way up to one of the top shooters in the professional ranks. In my youth, I shot many pro tournaments and other money shoots and being sponsored by Archery manufactures, I know what it takes to shoot at the top and what it takes to stay at the top.

In the beginning, the thing that I found that kept mine and others interested in Archery was trophy’s, medals, ribbons etc. These were given in all classifications. The person starting out (with either expensive or inexpensive equipment) that came in first, second or third in there class was awarded a trophy, medal, ribbon etc. They were congratulated and made to fell as though they had accomplished something special even if it were in the lower classification. Some people, because they did not want to get into the higher classifications where better equipment, stiffer competition and more dedication was required, would simply shoot scores that would keep them at the top of there classification. They got there trophy and was know as the top shooter in XXX classification. They were happy while other shooters moved on in classification.

When the money shoots got started, there was no classification. You brought you equipment and your skill and the top, I forget how many places were paid, took home the money. You shot against the sponsored shooters and the unsponsored shooters, the best. Then, and I don’t think you want to go down this path, a Handicap system was instituted because the guy that didn’t want to put in the time, money for equipment or dedication wanted to compete for the money. Therefore a person shooting high scores had to give the lower score shooters enough points to make them competitive. It is hard to beat a person who has deliberately held his scores down and now shoots the higher scores plus the handicap he received. You put in hours and hours of practice, saved money for good equipment, he did none of these thing and is proud that he got a higher scored and beat the pro. I have never understood this kind thinking. It is a lot easier to pick up 10 points when you are shooting 12 than it is to pick up 1 point when shooting 37. Fortunately the Handicap system did not last very long and was done away with.

Things to consider:
1. For family attraction, have fun shoots where targets are easy and $150 guns can win a trophy, some will filter out to become top shooters, and you will probably upset the guy who bought his gun at the flea market for $20, and now complains he can’t complete with those expensive $150 guns.

2. Try promoting this sport through video tapes, media, magazines etc.

3. The people who shoot the top scores and the people who are trying to move up in classification whether they be “racer type” or not,. they have put everything into this sport they can. Leave them alone and give them the respect that they deserve. After all, when looking for knowledge, it is the best shooters you seek.  

I am sure that you have heard these things before, but I have wanted to say them for many years.
Sorry if I drifted off the subject.
Besides, I am have enough problems trying to squeeze the trigger when the dot is momentarily on the target.
Tedfl

Offline K2

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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2004, 05:54:52 AM »
To Dave and others already in the sport, you notice the same thing I notice fewer competitors each year as a trend.  As far as a diminishing population that may be true of the sport but is not true of gun owners in general.  There are more gun owners today in America than at any time in history, the fact that we can't seem to grow the shooting sports is due to some other reason.  (If I absolutely knew what that reason was I would be a genius but I am not)

To me the idea that we can grow a sport and ignor the guns that people buy by the millions is pretty nuts.   I am not up on the ins and out os rifle silhouette but in Pistol a very interesting thing is occuring regarding equipment. The only mass produced pistol that fould a large niche in the sport was the TC Contender.  As the sport aged the custom "production" guns such as the BF, MOA and XL became the gun of choice at the really big matches and the TC started to take a back seat.  About 5 years ago TC dropped the Contender from production and our sport slowly began to realise we were not attracting a lot of new members not even enough to replace the members that naturally depart the sport for a variety of reasons including just flat dying.  When TC did bring back the G2 Contender they did so without the 10 inch barrels.  Well the NRA has upped the barrel length allowed in the lower categories from 10 to 12 inches and the IHMSA is contemplating doing the same.  All to accomodate a gun that most "real" competitors wouldn't consider as a competitive piece of equipment.  To me this is an acknowledgement of the fact that without some mass produced equipment the chances of growing a shooting sport are pretty slim.  

My reality hit me when I started the AIR game in the IHMSA, even with a $150 cap on equipment we had more entries fired than the second newest discipline of 1/2 scale where the highest Dollar equipment plays.  The low priced guns are capable of perfect scores in the air pistol game so there really is no saying that the guns aren't capable.  To apply the same to rifle silhouette with 10/22's, remington 597's marlin 60's would simply mean adjusting the size of the targets to match these guns.  Using the 3/8th pistol targets works fine.  Someone who practices and can get to 30+ targets in this low cost game would also be good at the high priced games and vice versa.  It takes the same basic skills to hit a 3/8ths chicken with a 10/22 as it does to hit a 1/5 chicken with an Anschutz or am I missing something?  According to Marlin they have built over 11,000,000 model 60's.  Ruger has made millions of 10/22's.  the list goes on.  Does it make any sense in disparaging these guns as only being good enough for a "tree rat"  (by the way I eat squirrel) or to say this just might get more people shooting some form of competition?  

If simple rules and simple highly available equipment can't work for a competition then can there be any real hope for the shooting sports?  You have already admitted that these tree rat shooters are not getting into rilfe silhouette now so I sure don't see the diminishing of the population of competitive shooters by creating an affordable silhouette game that might get some thinking about the sport.  Is it possible that the decline in the shooting sports just might have something to do with not having any low priced equipment area available?   I don't know the answer but think it sure could be.  Shooting side by side with the smaller 1/5th targets is a great idea and as long as we are civil to each other both groups should benefit.  
Quote from: davei
i don't think you really need a "minor league" or some other organization to divert our already diminishing population.  there are clubs at this time that set up pistol targets for kids or new shooters.  i should think it a much easier transition if they are shooting side by side with the regular targets.   and...  i apologize...  i was not referring to the 700's or model 70's as pieces of crap.  it was suggested that we shoot the competitions with $150 rifles...  they may be fine for shooting a tree rat or two but they will be a limitation when attempting to hit regulation targets off-hand.  to become a competent silhouette shooter means that you must work on your physical shooting skills, work on your mental skills, work on your mental toughness, work on our physical fitness, find ammunition that will shoot a reasonable group at 100 meters, find a scope that will repeat, find time to practice, and have some significant level of committment.  you address only one aspect of the challenge.  as Nomad suggested in another thread, and i completely agree, in the long run, the rifle is the least expensive.

with all that nonsense said, to suggest that things are peachy in the rifle silhouette world is ridiculous.  we definitely have experienced a loss of community and ranges in recent years.  we have danced around the challenges in the past but never really nailed it down and certainly haven't come up with a resolution that would be effective and deployable.  someone help me out here...  do we have discussions around these issues during our national committee meetings or am i just plain stupid to ask such a question?
dave

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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2004, 06:29:19 AM »
Great points Ted and my goal is to get more folks shooting what they already own sitting in their closets and gun safes.  Those who want to move along to the top of equipment ladder are certainly welcome to do so.  Marksmanship and the competitive spirit can be taught with equipment at any level of manufacture.

On advertising and promoting silhouette you are on the dot that we keep our sport hidden pretty well.  The IHMSA has spent a bunch of money on its International match but has not put much into promoting the game to a broader base.  I don't know what the rifle side has done as I have only played with it informally, but I don't recall much info on it in the normal gun magazines.  

I keep getting chastized by the "serious" shooters in my game cause I think there should be a few low buck areas in which to play.  (Just so you know where I stand Ted I fired the first 40x40 in the AIR  pistol game that the IHMSA sanctioned 4 years ago and can run with the big dogs in our 3 gun aggregate (currently 2nd Internationally in the records), I do so with very basic equipment and absolutely agree that skill is more important than equipment.  That being said equipment does matter and the most skilled marksman in the world cannot outshoot the 15th best marksman in the world if the top guy has a $150 dollar piece of equipment and the 15th ranked shooter has a $2000 dollar gun.  Mass produced equipment is at a disadvantage when going head to head with custom equipment)  Money prizes really screw up the works in my experience as well in amatuer sports.  Moving up in skill level is enough for the bulk of the people I shoot with regardless of whether they win the match or not.  The NRA qualification courses are proof enough of the staying power of this idea.  When winning the "prize" becomes so important that a shooter will stay in a lower class on purpose then there is trouble in the game.

As an outsider looking in do you think I am headed in the right direction or not?  You are who I am looking for, someone who is not currently in silhouette, so your thought are very important to me.  I think the shooting sports needs more participation.   Thanks for your time  :D  
Quote from: tedfl
Gentlemen, I am going to throw in my 2 cents for what it is worth. In the world of silhouette shooting, I am an outsider looking in. I have belonged to various gun clubs, the NRA, the NMLRA for over 40 years and I had never heard of silhouette shooting until two years ago. I have never seen anything in the gun books you buy at the magazine racks nothing in the NRA magazines that come with the NRA subscription nor anything you see on the TV sporting shows about silhouette shooting. The only information I find on the subject of silhouette shooting comes from the internet, mainly this web site. Says a lot for promotion of the sport. But back to the subject. I have seen this same thing happen in Archery. I started out as a beginner in the bottom class and worked my way up to one of the top shooters in the professional ranks. In my youth, I shot many pro tournaments and other money shoots and being sponsored by Archery manufactures, I know what it takes to shoot at the top and what it takes to stay at the top.

In the beginning, the thing that I found that kept mine and others interested in Archery was trophy’s, medals, ribbons etc. These were given in all classifications. The person starting out (with either expensive or inexpensive equipment) that came in first, second or third in there class was awarded a trophy, medal, ribbon etc. They were congratulated and made to fell as though they had accomplished something special even if it were in the lower classification. Some people, because they did not want to get into the higher classifications where better equipment, stiffer competition and more dedication was required, would simply shoot scores that would keep them at the top of there classification. They got there trophy and was know as the top shooter in XXX classification. They were happy while other shooters moved on in classification.

When the money shoots got started, there was no classification. You brought you equipment and your skill and the top, I forget how many places were paid, took home the money. You shot against the sponsored shooters and the unsponsored shooters, the best. Then, and I don’t think you want to go down this path, a Handicap system was instituted because the guy that didn’t want to put in the time, money for equipment or dedication wanted to compete for the money. Therefore a person shooting high scores had to give the lower score shooters enough points to make them competitive. It is hard to beat a person who has deliberately held his scores down and now shoots the higher scores plus the handicap he received. You put in hours and hours of practice, saved money for good equipment, he did none of these thing and is proud that he got a higher scored and beat the pro. I have never understood this kind thinking. It is a lot easier to pick up 10 points when you are shooting 12 than it is to pick up 1 point when shooting 37. Fortunately the Handicap system did not last very long and was done away with.

Things to consider:
1. For family attraction, have fun shoots where targets are easy and $150 guns can win a trophy, some will filter out to become top shooters, and you will probably upset the guy who bought his gun at the flea market for $20, and now complains he can’t complete with those expensive $150 guns.

2. Try promoting this sport through video tapes, media, magazines etc.

3. The people who shoot the top scores and the people who are trying to move up in classification whether they be “racer type” or not,. they have put everything into this sport they can. Leave them alone and give them the respect that they deserve. After all, when looking for knowledge, it is the best shooters you seek.  

I am sure that you have heard these things before, but I have wanted to say them for many years.
Sorry if I drifted off the subject.
Besides, I am have enough problems trying to squeeze the trigger when the dot is momentarily on the target.
Tedfl

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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2004, 07:35:34 AM »
AKIHMSA - In my mind I view what you are trying to do (and what you did with air pistol) as an IROC type of event.  I like the premise behind your assumptions, but in practical terms it seems like it would just turn into an IROL (International Race Of Losers).  Now I'm not calling everyone who doesn't compete at the highest levels a "loser" just making a point that the people who do never seem to be willing to "step down" to lesser equipment.  I know of plenty of other sports where you can buy increasingly expensive equipment in the search of a better score, but rarely does it do any good without skill and practice.  Chalk yourself up as one of the smart ones that is able to make this distinction without costing yourself a lot of money on the journey to your destination.

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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2004, 08:41:33 AM »
24 years ago my Dad got involved in Silhouette and I was happy to be in tow. I was 14 and got to shoot my Dad's .243 with a fixed 6x scope. It was fun!

Having started competitive silhouette again last summer (after buying a 7-08) I felt like a real underdog with all the gadgetry and custom gear everyone else had. I didn't like it and if I didn't have some background in silhouette might have stopped.

This winter I've worked on quite a few things including my equipment which has a larger bearing on my score than is healthy (in my opinion).

So, my point is I'd rather see hunter class made simpler instead of having another organization start up. We need to have a strong base, committed membership and this is best done by keeping things simple. There are a lot of things that would help to simplify hunter class so the average "Joe" could show up and shoot. Things that were done 24 years ago like during the match don't allow any adjustments to the scope, max 6x, etc.

Just my 2 cents...

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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2004, 09:48:36 AM »
#1 I totally agree with tedfl
#2 I really like this discussion.
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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2004, 10:16:10 AM »
I definitely agree that we have button-holed ourselves, and that most people haven't heard of us. Especially fellow shooters.

Thanks to websites like shooting pauls and others we have some people that are trying  to get the word out.  Yet, we need much more.
I am no marketer, but we definitely need to start marketing to our target audience.
      If this means creating variations on the current  silhouette rules to inspire shooters, I guess we need to.  My range has done this, and they get new shooters all of the time.  The only major change they have made is to shoot open classes for any gun, but keep the same distances and animal sizes.

However, I don't know if this is the best answer. Maybe if we marketed better we could get a bigger population sample that was more dedicated to the game.  Then again we may be right back where we started with the attitude of "shut up and shoot."  This attitude definitely pushes away new shooters.

So we are back where we started to create or to modify what we got.  You are going to hear a lot of opinions from both sides.  Take them all with a grain of salt and do what you can to try to increase the population of the shooting sports,  while still trying to keep to the values that we have built.

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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2004, 10:45:33 AM »
HI B Koes!

What was interesting to watch was when some of the top guys jumped in and bought a Daisy 747 (~$110) and started shooting in Production.  At first they were skeptical and then most started to enjoy the game.  Some didn't but nothing is 100%.   I have shot lots of air guns since starting this one up and what I found was that the top guns such as the Styers and FWB's etc. got me about 2 to 3 points on average freestyle over the Daisy and Crosmans.  This has proven out with many of the competitors.  The game is fun, doesn't cost much to get into or to feed the gun even top of the line pellets are 2 cents a pop.   The NRA sat up and took notice and now offer freestyle in their version of the game as well though they don't have the two $ capped entries.  

Your IROC or IROL comparision is applicable and I have fun regardless.  I still like the rest as well (big bore and small bore).  What it does do is to get the money arguements out of the game except for the occasional fellow that thinks it is unfair that he can go head to head with a crosman equiped shooter using his LP10 olympic pistol :-D

Untimately we are at a point where we need to try new things if we want more participation and that seems like a good enough reason to me.

I am listening and hearing things like 6x scopes, and simpler rules.  Keep those comments coming and be honest I can handle it!  
Quote from: B_Koes
AKIHMSA - In my mind I view what you are trying to do (and what you did with air pistol) as an IROC type of event.  I like the premise behind your assumptions, but in practical terms it seems like it would just turn into an IROL (International Race Of Losers).  Now I'm not calling everyone who doesn't compete at the highest levels a "loser" just making a point that the people who do never seem to be willing to "step down" to lesser equipment.  I know of plenty of other sports where you can buy increasingly expensive equipment in the search of a better score, but rarely does it do any good without skill and practice.  Chalk yourself up as one of the smart ones that is able to make this distinction without costing yourself a lot of money on the journey to your destination.

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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2004, 11:26:03 AM »
1) Do we really know if participation is down?  I seem to remember that at the lat Nationals I attended, we were told the number of participants was going up.

2) Why are there more High Power shooter?  Their equipment is even more expensive than outs.

3) Why are there more Bullseye shooters?  Their equipment is about the same cost as ours.

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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2004, 03:16:17 AM »
I believe that we have a case of "can't see the forest for the trees".  We already have a "minor league" or place where anyone can be competitive regardless of the cost of equipment.  It is called B, A, AA class.  Admittedly when you reach AAA and Master then equipment becomes more of an issue however you can have a poor shot with great equipment or a great shot with poor equipment and the great shot will win.

This sport gives you an opportunity to compete in a class that your skill level and equipment will let you reach.  If you are comfortable shooting your $150.00 rifle and occasionally winning or placing in your class then that is your decision.  If you are more competitive and want to move up in the standings and think that a better piece of equipment will make the difference then you are free to invest in better equipment.

The issue here is not whether equipment makes a difference but rather the fact that most people are either not competitive or do not want to look foolish.  An example: I have a friend that I gopher hunt with, he uses his 10/22 and usually kills many more gophers than I do by using my 5 shot bolt action rifle, however he usually shoots (sprays) 5 to 10 shots for every gopher while I usually use 1 or 2.  I finally induced him to attend a silhouette match and he shot a 4/40, he was frustrated because he could thought that he was such a good shot on gophers and yet could not hit a silhouette that was not moving.  No one else thought anything of it yet in his mind he thought that he looked foolish - therein lies the problem with most competitors in silhouette, it is difficult and many people do not want to have to deal with the fact that in order to be good you must work at it.

As far as having to have expensive equipment - I am a smallbore Master class shooter, I shot myself into Master using a Remington 541, a Tasco 6 - 24 silhouette scope and CCI standard velocity ammo.  Total cost of my equipment was well under $500.00.  If most people would spend the extra money on practice ammo instead of equipment they would be better shots.  Oh yes, I also shoot high-power hunter class using a box stock Wal-Mart purchased synthetic stock Remington 700 adl with the Tasco 6 - 24 silhouette scope, total cost was $369.00 for the rifle and $150.00 for the scope, I am AAA in high-power, so as far as having to have  big dollar equpment or a seperate organization for those who are either unwilling or can't afford higher priced equipment I feel that you are barking up the wrong tree - you would do the sport much more of a service by supporting the current organization.

Even if you a class was created with a price cap on equipment the same shooters that win now would win with a lower priced piece of equipment.  Then the also rans would complain about the shooters being "professional" or some other complaint in order to make themselves feel better about losing.  

By the way how do you plan on putting the price cap on the cost of equipment.  If I purchase an Anschutz 1700 for $150.00 then isn't that a $150.00 rifle? Or do you plan on capping it a $150.00 retail, fine - then what years retail are we working from?  Are you saying that I could not compete in your organization just because I happen to have a rifle I paid $150.00 for in 1970?  How about this scenario, I really like to win and have the funds available to facilitate it, I purchase 6 $150.00 rifles and shoot them until I find the best shooter of the bunch and then sell the rest and compete with the best shooting one - don't I have an edge that no one else does.  Or what if I take my $150.00 rifle and have it smithed so that everything true and have the trigger reworked so that it is nice and crisp - don't I have an edge over everyone?  If you were to have rule similar to what you propose in place you can be sure that there are people out there who will find ways around them and do things like that.

What I am hearing in your proposal is that you are trying to make a set of rules so that people can "feel good about themselves" by competing with inexpensive equipment - as far as I am concerned the only way to feel good is to practice and win - if you don't want to work at that hard and just want to be there for the social aspect then that is fine but don't try to handicap the real competitiors.

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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2004, 05:36:26 AM »
Drover pretty well sums up my thoughts as I've followed this thread. Akishma is to be applauded for working on ways to increase interest and I hope his plan works. If it snags new shooters who wouldn't have started otherwise, that's a good thing, whether they progress to regulation-size animals or not. But long-term I think the difficulty of the sport makes it self-limiting and that's not a bad thing. It's just the way it is. If it were easy, everybody would be doing it. I've brought out people who truly were excellent game shots. Hunters and shooters all their lives. They hit three or four and are profoundly embarrassed. You point out that what they've been doing doesn't prepare them for silhouette but it doesn't help. They're not coming back. It's youngsters we need to work on. And we all need to remember that: "You wouldn't worry so much about what people think of you if you realized how seldom they do."

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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2004, 05:45:44 AM »
Akihmsa:

As you know, each of the various shooting events have there particular following regardless of equipment price, Bench, military, 3 position, blackpower, cowboy, shotgun, etc. Therefore; you would in my option get a following. To what extent I don’t know. However; I think you will still get the shooters that hone the sears, replace trigger springs, add internal weight, beds the action, etc. in order to gain a edge. Whether it is a good idea? If anything encourages people that do not normally participate in shooting events to come out and shoot I would think yes, if it is to try and replace what is existing, I would have to say no. My strongest agreement is with Hornetx60. Dave, Pawel, B_Koes, lucho and drover. Silhouette shooting has the ability to be a spectator sport. It has action and speed. I even watch them shoot clay birds through rings on TV. To me this would create interest in the sport along with articles such as Interviews with the Champions, videos of silhouette nationals shoots, instructional videos on silhouette shooting and equipment etc. but I digress.
Tedfl

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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2004, 06:46:51 AM »
Hi Drover

Great questions!  

On the price cap, that is not essential and can be done by simply limited the models allowed.  In Small Bore auto it could be simply 10/22, 60's, 597's and 4 or 5 more of the very most popular autoloaders built in terms of numbers built.  The target would be somewhere in the area of 20,000,000 guns that are either in production currently or are very available.  Naturally there will be the occasional fellow that has an autoloader that is not on the list that will cry foul but you don't goof up 99% to try to accomodate 1%.  

On your I paid $150 for my $1000 rifle so it should be allowed.  That arguement is bankrupt from the get go and everyone sees through these type of folks.  All any match director need do is to offer $151 dollars to the "competitor" and he will of course turn it down proving he is in fact using a $1000 rifle.  "Smithing" the gun to true actions etc. is simply not allowed, nor do you have the association worry too much over this type of stuff.  The fellows that will do what it takes to cheat and "win" pass thru the ranks rather quickly, are found out usually by simply listening and there is enough real issues to be concerned over, to worry much over this red herring.

Lastly on the "support the current organization".  A new and slightly different association would be doing them a great service by interesting folks in silhouette that for one reason or another currently are are staying away.  Monopolies always like to say life would be terrible without the monopoly.  I remember when a long distance phone call cost over 10 time what we are paying today, due to only one provider.  Thanks to being able to shop around a bit now the number of people calling long distance has gone up even more than 10 times.   Does anyone really believe changes will occur without wider participation?  If I proposed a 10/22 etc. class at the committee level of a current organizzation, how far do you realistically think the idea would go?  In my association, in spite of the fact that AIR is growing rapidly while the others are not or are losing ground, what do you think the committee's have decided to tinker with?  You guessed it,  us guys at the bottom of the barrel.  We are now "allowed" to add a $140 sight set up on our sub $150 guns!  Oh boy just what we needed!  The $ cap is under attack as somehow either being "unfair" or not in keeping with the spirit of the game.   Very soon I predict seeing LP10's in the lower levels of the game, when that happens bye bye Daisy shooters.   It won't happen overnight but it will happen.  To hang onto a low priced area it must be part of the guiding principals laid out in the bylaws otherwise we all know what happens to good intentions.  

What I am proposing will in no way hurt the participation levels in the traditional silhouette groups.  You don't shoot at 3/8ths targets in your small bore game and you don't shoot at 50 to 200 meters in your Big Bore game.  

The fly in the ointment in the class system is as you put at the top levels.  AAA and above.  Equipment does matter and saying it doesn't won't change the fact.  

Whether you know it or not the "purists" tend to talk down to the folks with run of the mill equipment.  They call them "tree rat" shooters or "spray and prayers" etc.  The attitude runs many off.  Quite often the new shooter hears that they need to upgrade their equipment from other shooters.  In the case of the 1/5th scale game and a 10/22 they are correct.  However that would not be the case with a 3/8th scale game and a 10/22.  The purists also seem to be concerned over sandbaggers or that someone will bend the rules and therefore we need to loosen the rules so much that it doesn't matter.  Like you I have made it to International (IHMSA's Master level) in Standing using run of the mill equipment.  Like you I have seen a lack of youth and families in the sport and I think that can be addressed by what I am proposing.  The Hummer driver and the Jeep driver both can enjoy 4 wheeling.  

I have no desire to limit whatever you wish to do and absolutely believe that there is a large group of shooters that would benefit from a more basic game.  Those that will participate will become better shots.  Their safe gun handling skills will improve by participating in a sanctioned event, the shooting sports will gain new members, so I just am not seeing the downside nor the doom and gloom predictions.   (like I have the power to somehow ruin silhouette)  I know the low buck games can work cause I have witnessed it first hand.  

Quote from: drover
I believe that we have a case of "can't see the forest for the trees".  We already have a "minor league" or place where anyone can be competitive regardless of the cost of equipment.  It is called B, A, AA class.  Admittedly when you reach AAA and Master then equipment becomes more of an issue however you can have a poor shot with great equipment or a great shot with poor equipment and the great shot will win.

This sport gives you an opportunity to compete in a class that your skill level and equipment will let you reach.  If you are comfortable shooting your $150.00 rifle and occasionally winning or placing in your class then that is your decision.  If you are more competitive and want to move up in the standings and think that a better piece of equipment will make the difference then you are free to invest in better equipment.

The issue here is not whether equipment makes a difference but rather the fact that most people are either not competitive or do not want to look foolish.  An example: I have a friend that I gopher hunt with, he uses his 10/22 and usually kills many more gophers than I do by using my 5 shot bolt action rifle, however he usually shoots (sprays) 5 to 10 shots for every gopher while I usually use 1 or 2.  I finally induced him to attend a silhouette match and he shot a 4/40, he was frustrated because he could thought that he was such a good shot on gophers and yet could not hit a silhouette that was not moving.  No one else thought anything of it yet in his mind he thought that he looked foolish - therein lies the problem with most competitors in silhouette, it is difficult and many people do not want to have to deal with the fact that in order to be good you must work at it.

As far as having to have expensive equipment - I am a smallbore Master class shooter, I shot myself into Master using a Remington 541, a Tasco 6 - 24 silhouette scope and CCI standard velocity ammo.  Total cost of my equipment was well under $500.00.  If most people would spend the extra money on practice ammo instead of equipment they would be better shots.  Oh yes, I also shoot high-power hunter class using a box stock Wal-Mart purchased synthetic stock Remington 700 adl with the Tasco 6 - 24 silhouette scope, total cost was $369.00 for the rifle and $150.00 for the scope, I am AAA in high-power, so as far as having to have  big dollar equpment or a seperate organization for those who are either unwilling or can't afford higher priced equipment I feel that you are barking up the wrong tree - you would do the sport much more of a service by supporting the current organization.

Even if you a class was created with a price cap on equipment the same shooters that win now would win with a lower priced piece of equipment.  Then the also rans would complain about the shooters being "professional" or some other complaint in order to make themselves feel better about losing.  

By the way how do you plan on putting the price cap on the cost of equipment.  If I purchase an Anschutz 1700 for $150.00 then isn't that a $150.00 rifle? Or do you plan on capping it a $150.00 retail, fine - then what years retail are we working from?  Are you saying that I could not compete in your organization just because I happen to have a rifle I paid $150.00 for in 1970?  How about this scenario, I really like to win and have the funds available to facilitate it, I purchase 6 $150.00 rifles and shoot them until I find the best shooter of the bunch and then sell the rest and compete with the best shooting one - don't I have an edge that no one else does.  Or what if I take my $150.00 rifle and have it smithed so that everything true and have the trigger reworked so that it is nice and crisp - don't I have an edge over everyone?  If you were to have rule similar to what you propose in place you can be sure that there are people out there who will find ways around them and do things like that.

What I am hearing in your proposal is that you are trying to make a set of rules so that people can "feel good about themselves" by competing with inexpensive equipment - as far as I am concerned the only way to feel good is to practice and win - if you don't want to work at that hard and just want to be there for the social aspect then that is fine but don't try to handicap the real competitiors.

Offline drags

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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2004, 07:22:35 AM »
Would a new silhouette association help or water down what we have now? The reason I ask is we had a silhouette match closed because the two guys that run it got interested in BPCR and cowboy action. The one guy quit shooting HP silhouette and started BPCR, and the other dropped the HP silhouette match and put the cowboy action in its place. HP silhouette could be a spectator sport when I'm not shooting or spotting I like to watch other people shoot, ( I love to watch those rams go down). The other question I have is if Silhouette was a olympic sport would this spark more interest in the sport using the same rules we have now?
Drags

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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2004, 03:06:11 PM »
Hi Drags and Ted!

Ted this in no way is meant to replace what is already out there nor would it.  The guys that really like to tinker with their equipment and upgrade when they think it is going to make a difference are not going to drop their sport for a budget gun sport.  They might add an occasional fun match to their shooting now and then but that would most likely be it.

Drags, great questions especially the match directors packing up for other things.  I restarted a match about 5 years ago and when I left the area it instantly died out.  No one would step up and run the match.  You describe the same thing.  People come and go all the time for all sorts of reasons.  You can't force someone to play a game.  This is exactly why the shooting sports need more participation.  The larger the numbers the greater the chance of someone willing to run things.  

On the olympics, you might get them to look at small bore but in most countrys 500 meters with a center fire rifle is probably against some law.  For silhouette to be considered it is going to have to get a bunch more popular (exactly what I am trying to see if it can be done  :D  )

One thing we so far have all agreed upon is the need to get more folks shootin steel (or anything where they learn to be better shots) !  That is a very good starting point.  
Quote from: drags
Would a new silhouette association help or water down what we have now? The reason I ask is we had a silhouette match closed because the two guys that run it got interested in BPCR and cowboy action. The one guy quit shooting HP silhouette and started BPCR, and the other dropped the HP silhouette match and put the cowboy action in its place. HP silhouette could be a spectator sport when I'm not shooting or spotting I like to watch other people shoot, ( I love to watch those rams go down). The other question I have is if Silhouette was a olympic sport would this spark more interest in the sport using the same rules we have now?
Drags

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« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2004, 04:29:39 PM »
i guess what i have a challenge with is that you are suggesting we go backwards.  you suggest limits on equipment based upon the number of manufactured units, you suggest that smithing is "simply not allowed."  to keep true to your intent you will probably have to limit the quality of ammunition as well.
but heavens have mercy...  we just came from there.  it wasn't that the intent was bad, it was that the rules were near impossible to enforce.  we have been where you suggest and found it an extremely difficult place to exist.

but...  i guess i don't see a point in argueing or discussing the issue further.  as long as you are setting up something separate and not making me shoot a 10/22 i guess it really doesn't matter to me.  if you firmly believe this is a great idea, go for it.  good luck on your endeavor.  i wish you success beyond your wildest imagination.  

i don't think i have ever typed "heavens have mercy before!"

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« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2004, 06:29:21 PM »
i don't think i have ever typed "heavens have mercy before!"

And you shouldn't ever do it again!  :)
E Kuney

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« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2004, 06:35:54 PM »
Hi guys, I'm new to this site, but not to the game.  Quit once for 10 plus years because I found the game so frustrating.  Interesting ideas in this thread.  Perhaps what is needed to keep new shooters interested is not a new discipline, but simply two categories available at signup, where each shooter selects whether they want to compete against all other shooters, or only against themselves.  New shooters could be either steered or even required to shoot only against themselves for 3 (?) matches before being allowed to 'step up.'  Shooters in the second category would be recognized for personal best scores, or for firing a score in a higher classification, etc....The award scenarios are endless, but the point is to focus the shooter on who he really is shooting against, and that is his past performance.  At least for me, that is the key that made the game enjoyable again....Salty waters 8)

Offline B_Koes

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Rem. Win. Ruger owners, interested in new
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2004, 06:14:23 AM »
Well look at you AKIHMSA...you certainly know how to start a thread that will get lots of posts! ;)  Like I said, I like the premise in theory but it just seems to me that it will cannibalize the sport because in my view there just aren't enough ranges.  I envision that a range with enough gumption to support this is already doing something with another sanctioning body.  This would then cause them to choose organizations (depending upon range layout).  It just seems like a big uphill battle, but I do know that you are one who likes a challenge! :grin:

You know as a match director that much of this starts at the local level anyway.  What you propose is similar to smallbore cowboy silhouettes except obviously not limiting it to lever actions.  We do not shoot as a sanctioned event yet it is one of the most participated in categories.  The other ranges nearby shoot big bore cowboy silhouettes as a non-sanctioned event and again it is one of the more popular entries.  Would this new category benefit from a central organization...maybe it that organization could effective aid in promotion, otherwise probably not.  If I sound like I waffle from one side to the other of the fence of discontentment and frustration then you see right through me.  For long period of time I looked to become involved in IHMSA (or NRA) silhouettes but could not find where to participate.  Silhouettes didn't recruit me...I hunted it down!  How can we expect numbers to grow if others must follow a similar track??  

I think that a point we differ on is that equipment has caused the dwindling participation.  I suspect that politics, bickering, and a hard to understand rules structure have contributed to it.  Proceeded by the dwindling of actuall ranges which I think is a huge issue as most of the local ranges are fighting zoning batttles.  Oh did I mention the other influence??  Most shoots I am barely able to get 3 guns in before having to scramble back home to my wife and young kids.  I hardly get to see them enough during the work week to spend most all of my weekends away from them too...even if it is for such a worthwhile activity as shooting! ;)  This also limits the number of weekends that I can even spend shooting.  Is it any wonder that this is an "older person" sport?  I suspect that I will shoot more silhouettes once the kids get older and I can convince one of them to take up shooting! :)

So here I am...I've come full circle and not solved anything yet my brain hurts!  I'm interested to see what you come up with because I do not have this same vision that you seem to have.  You have proven to be an innovator in the IHMSA silhouette world so I would not bet against you.