Author Topic: Rem. Win. Ruger owners, interested in new Silhouettte Game?  (Read 2075 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline K2

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 379
Rem. Win. Ruger owners, interested in new
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2004, 06:42:23 AM »
Hi Dave

I know that I couldn't force you to shoot a 10/22 if I want to and wouldn't try for the reasons stated above.  

Enforcement of rules really isn't that hard if they are set up correctly to start with.  To use the .22 auto class as an example, you require the barrel to be from the manufacture of the gun as indicated by the stampings on the barrel.  This alone eliminates most of the problems and the MD (match Director) can easily check it in seconds.  Trigger pull of 2 lbs or more is also very easy to confirm.  In the area of Scopes for the scope classes limiting the power to 4x or 6x is also fairly easy to see.  

By limiting the models to a small group the mods that give the most advantage would be a fairly short list as well again making enforcement a fairly easy process.  Dealing with those who would bend the rules is also easy simply by listing their names in the "rules bender" section of the newsletter.  

If it was desired to limit ammo this would also be simple in .22lr by simply requiring high velocity ammo, no standard velocity.  This is easy to confirm with a $50 chronograph and most clubs today own chronographs.   Center fire is reloading central and the only way to limit that is as done in Cowboy; the shape of the nose of the bullet itself.  Flat and Round nose ammo limits performance accuracy wise somewhat and is much easier on targets.   These restrictions would of course make a "super competitor" want to toss his cookies but that isn't who this is aimed at in the first place.  

You wouldn't need to worry over the rules at every oportunity either, only when the MD suspects something is amiss.   I certainly would not want to see guns being dismantled before every match, this is a sure way to run everyone off.  Protest fees limit the bickering to those who a very sure there is a violation worth checking into.  

The problem areas of silhouette revolve around names that promise something that isn't really delivered.  In the IHMSA we have an area called "Production".  To a large percentage of the shooting population this indicates a mass produced gun.  This is not however what the rules lay out and the custom guns rule the production categories at AAA and INT level.  In the rifle game you have the "Hunter" classes.  To the general shooting public this indicates something that they would go out and actually hunt with.  Reality is the top classes are shooting target rifles with target scopes of 24 to 36 power or more, equipment you just wouldn't see in a hunting camp.  The problems that have risen up is trying to explain to a new shooter that our definitions of the words are different than his definition.  When these fellows here of a hunter gun being specially built for the game they know they have entered into a race area.  

I am not up on the particulars of the rifle game but suspect that it is much like the pistol game you don't have much controversy in "Standard" just as we don't have much in "Unlimited".  90% of our rules controversy comes from the production area and I suspect hunter is where your issues live.  The racers don't like the idea of limits and the over the counter crowd doesn't like going head to head with custom equipment.  

To me it could easily be a non issue simply by giving each group what they want and then sharing the range and targets.  Larger participation lowers the cost of running matches so it could be a win win situation if allowed.  What shouldn't be allowed at the match is either group making silly comments about the other, nothing good will come from that.  Some people drive fords some chevies and some like ferarri's all can share the same road  :D  

In silhouette everywhere a lot of people have already voted silently that their interests were not being considered.  They do this by simply not showing up anymore, no yelling and screaming, we just don't see them at the matches anymore.  For many Match Directors this is a problem because without a certain level of participation running the matches becomes too difficult.

Quote from: davei
i guess what i have a challenge with is that you are suggesting we go backwards.  you suggest limits on equipment based upon the number of manufactured units, you suggest that smithing is "simply not allowed."  to keep true to your intent you will probably have to limit the quality of ammunition as well.
but heavens have mercy...  we just came from there.  it wasn't that the intent was bad, it was that the rules were near impossible to enforce.  we have been where you suggest and found it an extremely difficult place to exist.

but...  i guess i don't see a point in argueing or discussing the issue further.  as long as you are setting up something separate and not making me shoot a 10/22 i guess it really doesn't matter to me.  if you firmly believe this is a great idea, go for it.  good luck on your endeavor.  i wish you success beyond your wildest imagination.  

i don't think i have ever typed "heavens have mercy before!"

Offline CB

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
Marketing
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2004, 07:51:31 AM »
Shooting Sports was filming at this years SB Nats, they brought the cameras up to the HP range to film ram knockdowns. Said they were planning a special to air no sooner than 11/03. I've been watching for it and nothing as yet. Perhaps if others contacted ?

Offline K2

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 379
Rem. Win. Ruger owners, interested in new
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2004, 08:36:40 AM »
BK you hit one nail squarely on the head PROMOTION  In the beginning of AIR I was the promoter.  As more tried the game and liked it some of them became promoters too.  What I have come to realise is that I am NOT unique (though at one time I thought I was  :-D )  If the idea interests me I have found that it also interests lots of others and the big key is to find them and let them know about the sport.  Experience has also shown me that unless low cost is actually written into the guidelines it won't last.  I was fairly successful at the start up of the low cost IHMSA game but it is slowly and surely  being made more and more costly.  There is a very good chance the $ cap is going away this year or next because "it isn't in keeping with the spirit of the rest of the disciplines" or something like that.   I hope I have mis read the tea leaves but if history means anything I doubt it.  

On ranges, lots of those ranges lay unused 4 to 6 days a week.  There are some ranges that have two day matches (Saturday and Sunday) but many are only one day matches so a different group could find space fairly easily.   The toughest part of running a silhouette match is hauling and standing up the targets.  More than any other sport this one needs participation to deal with that aspect.   This is why so many MD's hold side matches, they need to do anything to keep the match going and they know it.  A sanctioned body will have a percentage of funds available for promotion and when it all shakes out, silly wet is silly wet.  

One getting lots of posts, this is the purpose of ALL promotion.  Get people thinking about the sport regardless as long as you don't start to pee on someone elses back  :D

Quote from: B_Koes
Well look at you AKIHMSA...you certainly know how to start a thread that will get lots of posts! ;)  Like I said, I like the premise in theory but it just seems to me that it will cannibalize the sport because in my view there just aren't enough ranges.  I envision that a range with enough gumption to support this is already doing something with another sanctioning body.  This would then cause them to choose organizations (depending upon range layout).  It just seems like a big uphill battle, but I do know that you are one who likes a challenge! :grin:

You know as a match director that much of this starts at the local level anyway.  What you propose is similar to smallbore cowboy silhouettes except obviously not limiting it to lever actions.  We do not shoot as a sanctioned event yet it is one of the most participated in categories.  The other ranges nearby shoot big bore cowboy silhouettes as a non-sanctioned event and again it is one of the more popular entries.  Would this new category benefit from a central organization...maybe it that organization could effective aid in promotion, otherwise probably not.  If I sound like I waffle from one side to the other of the fence of discontentment and frustration then you see right through me.  For long period of time I looked to become involved in IHMSA (or NRA) silhouettes but could not find where to participate.  Silhouettes didn't recruit me...I hunted it down!  How can we expect numbers to grow if others must follow a similar track??  

I think that a point we differ on is that equipment has caused the dwindling participation.  I suspect that politics, bickering, and a hard to understand rules structure have contributed to it.  Proceeded by the dwindling of actuall ranges which I think is a huge issue as most of the local ranges are fighting zoning batttles.  Oh did I mention the other influence??  Most shoots I am barely able to get 3 guns in before having to scramble back home to my wife and young kids.  I hardly get to see them enough during the work week to spend most all of my weekends away from them too...even if it is for such a worthwhile activity as shooting! ;)  This also limits the number of weekends that I can even spend shooting.  Is it any wonder that this is an "older person" sport?  I suspect that I will shoot more silhouettes once the kids get older and I can convince one of them to take up shooting! :)

So here I am...I've come full circle and not solved anything yet my brain hurts!  I'm interested to see what you come up with because I do not have this same vision that you seem to have.  You have proven to be an innovator in the IHMSA silhouette world so I would not bet against you.

Offline urika20

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Rem. Win. Ruger owners, interested in new
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2004, 05:47:27 AM »
This post brings back memories. Back in 79 I shot my first 22 silhouette match. I was using my Rem 581 topped with a 4x scope and my father was using a similar setup. As I can barely remember most of the other shooters were using stock bolt actions. Being a 17yr old at the time I thought I was a good shot. Little did I know how small metal targets can humble you. That day I shot a 22x40 and not to brag but I won that match. I took a trophy home that day. I still have it.

I have not shot formal silhouette since. Back then my parents didn't have a lot of money so I really wasn't able to go back again. A few years later dad had a fellow coworker make up reg sized 22 targets that we hung by chains and shot at those with friends. Moving ahead to today it is more a lack of facilities and places to shoot than time or money. I've been caught up in the equipment thing but not so much with firearms than the other sports I enjoy. ie: $300 softball bats and $300 drivers.

Myself, I would rather do the over the counter shoots with trophys given out than monetary prizes. I applaud the guy with the expensive rigs and the dedication to be very good at what he does. I should be so disciplined. Most of the gun clubs around me have basic rifle sight in ranges. So maybe its a lack of resources I suppose.

Good luck on your endeavor, bringing in more people to the shooting scene is important. To all of us. From the weekend guy to the fellow that travels around the country doing what he is an expert at. As far as getting the shooter back who shot a 5x40 with his wally mart special that will be a tough sell. It's an ego thing. I guess I just would like to go back to that warm August day in 79 and do it again where it seemed the place to be.


urika20

Offline K2

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 379
Rem. Win. Ruger owners, interested in new
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2004, 10:51:54 AM »
Excellent post urika20

Going to the 3/8ths scale targets will bring the game more in line with the lower priced rifles level of accuracy and help the fellow who only can get 2 to 5x40 targets.  

Expectations have a lot to do with how the game will be received.  For the guy that things he is a pretty good shot it is a real shock to his expected outcome to only be able to hit a few targets.  Even with the larger targets and using over the counter guns with lower power scopes he still isn't going to get a 35x40 unless he is very good but he may get 12 or 15 and that is easier on the ego  :D
Quote from: urika20
This post brings back memories. Back in 79 I shot my first 22 silhouette match. I was using my Rem 581 topped with a 4x scope and my father was using a similar setup. As I can barely remember most of the other shooters were using stock bolt actions. Being a 17yr old at the time I thought I was a good shot. Little did I know how small metal targets can humble you. That day I shot a 22x40 and not to brag but I won that match. I took a trophy home that day. I still have it.

I have not shot formal silhouette since. Back then my parents didn't have a lot of money so I really wasn't able to go back again. A few years later dad had a fellow coworker make up reg sized 22 targets that we hung by chains and shot at those with friends. Moving ahead to today it is more a lack of facilities and places to shoot than time or money. I've been caught up in the equipment thing but not so much with firearms than the other sports I enjoy. ie: $300 softball bats and $300 drivers.

Myself, I would rather do the over the counter shoots with trophys given out than monetary prizes. I applaud the guy with the expensive rigs and the dedication to be very good at what he does. I should be so disciplined. Most of the gun clubs around me have basic rifle sight in ranges. So maybe its a lack of resources I suppose.

Good luck on your endeavor, bringing in more people to the shooting scene is important. To all of us. From the weekend guy to the fellow that travels around the country doing what he is an expert at. As far as getting the shooter back who shot a 5x40 with his wally mart special that will be a tough sell. It's an ego thing. I guess I just would like to go back to that warm August day in 79 and do it again where it seemed the place to be.


urika20