Author Topic: Slugs or buckshot for home defense? (Read 2291 times)

Gregory · « **on:** March 24, 2004, 03:28:41 AM »

The gun I keep in the first position in my safe is a Remington 870 LH 12 ga that I bought new in 1971. I keep a 20" smoothbore slug barrel on it and it wears stock Remington open sights. This is primarily a hunting gun, but would most likely be the first gun I grab for home defense.
I recently purchased several boxes of #4 buckshot (27-24 cal pellets) and plan to use these in a home defense situation if needed.
Would 00 buck (9-35 cal pellets) or slugs be a better load?

Lawdog · « **Reply #1 on:** March 24, 2004, 03:05:59 PM »

For defense against another human being in your home never use slugs unless you have absolutely no other choice. As ‘cknight98’ said over penetration is the problem. I have 00 buck in my shotguns that we have for home defense(20 and 12 gauge) and it has worked for LEO’s for many years and it still works today. Lawdog

DEPUTY · « **Reply #2 on:** March 24, 2004, 05:02:17 PM »

OO IS A GREAT CHOICE BUT YOU MUST FIND OUT WHAT YOUR GUN PATTERNS THE BEST THERE IS A DIFFERENCE, ALSO IN 3 SHOOTING WE HAVE HAVE SEEN WITH SLUGS A REGULAR FOSTER STYLE ONLY ONE LEFT THE BODY OF THE VICTIM! A LOWER RECCOIL LOW VELOCITY SLUG IS GREAT FOR THE HOME AND ARE MUCH BETTER STOPPERS THAN BUCKSHOT BUCKSHOT, I HAVE ONE DUTY GUN THAT IS AREM FULLY RIFLED 870 CUT TO 18INCHES AND RECROWNED WITH GHOST RINGS AND A SCOUT MOUNT ON IT WITH A AIMPOINT AND A SUREFIRE THAT IS MY MAIN DUTY GUN ALONG WITH AN AR-15 TO EACH IS OWN BUT AT LEAST GO WITH THE OO BUCK NOT NUMBER 4, ALSO IF THE SUBJECTS ARE WEARING BODY ARMOR YOU WILL LOVE HAVING SLUGS ON HAND FOR ME SLUGS ARE THE ONLY CHOICE

ranger730 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 24, 2004, 05:54:08 PM »

The way I have my mossberg loaded,3 shells of no.2 shot, 3 shells of 00 buck, then 2 shells with 2 3/4 in. slugs, That way if what evers coming be animal or human and it don't stop with the first few shots then I know the last two are slugs, but I don't have to worry to much about over penetration with the first couple of shots.just my 2cts worth :-)

Captain Hobo · « **Reply #4 on:** March 25, 2004, 03:40:02 PM »

I would think that you wouldn't even need buckshot for home defense. If you were to have to shoot someone in your bedroom, how far would that be? Maybe 15 feet, at that distance, number 8 shot would work. I dunno if you have a big house, but the longest shot that I could take in my house would be about 30 feet, again I don't think the size of the shot matters. I suppose if I had to shoot someone in my backyard, then I would want the buckshot. I have always thought that if I ever fired my shotgun in my house at night (at a dangerous intruder) the sound of the blast would deafen us all, and if at night, the flash would probably blind us temporarily. I really think that my shotgun would be for someone pounding on my front door late at night, one sight of the muzzle and they would go elsewhere! Just my 2 cents.

DEPUTY · « **Reply #5 on:** March 25, 2004, 06:59:17 PM »

in the last shotgun class i taught one guy had the same idea and we proved him wrong at 7-10yd range light birdshot didnt even penetrate the 1x2 standsif the intruder was wearing heavy clothing leathers, carharts,triplefats,fubu etc it wont do you any good, buck or slugs

Captain Hobo · « **Reply #6 on:** March 26, 2004, 01:43:18 AM »

O.K., I stand corrected. I've never taken part in those kind of tests. I guess it'll be 00 for me form now on!

Gregory · « **Reply #7 on:** March 26, 2004, 12:01:19 PM »

Thanks for the responses. I plan to do a personal defense practice day at the range. I'll compare the 00 Buck to the #4 buck on reduced silhouette targets and see which one patterns best.

jimmyp50 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 13, 2004, 02:36:49 PM »

at 7 yards my 20 inch double barreled 12 gauge (cowboy action gun) firing #8 low brass, target loads will punch clean through a white pine 3/4 inch board. It makes a big hole in the center but other shot that are away from the center punch through as well. I shot 4 boards with each board being 12 inch by 12 inch x 3/4 inch thick at my gun range. What surprised me was that the aguila minishells in the same loading punched right thru as well. Please note that besides the big hole in the middle there were individual holes for all shot that had spread out that passed through the board. You guys load what you want, I just hope you do not live near me. From my tests I know that even with a #8 load, there is still the possibility of shooting through your walls and injuring another family member. I am willing to be my life that a 12 gauge #8 shot, low brass load will stop any intruder wearing any type of street clothes at distances of 7-10 yards. If you do not believe this, try shooting a pine board yourself at this distance.

rockbilly · « **Reply #9 on:** May 14, 2004, 12:59:17 PM »

Several years ago I read about an individual that fired a shotgun with 00 buck at an intruder. He was successful in taking the bad guy out, but he also killed his grandson who was sleeping in the next room. I personally think a shotgun is great for home defense, but I would load it with birdshot as the first two rounds and maybe a #1 or 2 after that. If there are no kids or grandkids around, then move up to the 00 or to a .45 and do hat ya gotta do.........

Bikenut · « **Reply #10 on:** May 14, 2004, 03:20:28 PM »

I going to go against the general consensus about shotguns for home defense.

I think a 12ga. is overkill inside a house. Too much potential for incidental damage and injuring others inside and outside the house. So my shotgun choice for inside the house is a .410 with #6 shot. 4 of those #6's should change a perp's mind plus hold down on extra damage/danger to others.

Now I know a 12ga. will make a larger pattern than a .410......... but that happens only at longer distances. Inside my house the furthest I'd have to shoot would be under 20 feet.... so neither the 12ga. nor the .410 pattern's are going to open up very much at that short distance. I'm aware of this and understand that I'll still have to aim the shotgun and not depend on it being a "scatter" gun.

Feel free to inform me if my decision of .410 over 12ga. is misguided.

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #11 on:** May 14, 2004, 03:40:15 PM »

I HAVE FOUND THAT KEEPING FOUR ROUNDS OF #1 AND #2 BUCK IN THE TUBE AND SLUGS AND 00 ON THE CHEEK PICE COVERS EVERYTHING,SHOOT AND MOVE AND KEEP YOUR HOUSE DARK,DARK IS YOUR ADVANTAGE.

S.S. · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2004, 08:45:03 AM »

Inside of a house I would have to say that any
shot-gun 12,16,20,410 loaded with any size shot
would be pretty effective against a person!

BUT .........

Say your dog starts going crazy in your yard, and you hear what
sounds like an intruder entering your house! You grab your
.410 loaded with heavy bird-shot and head to look whats going on
and see a perp. standing on your patio pointing a gun at you
through your heavy sliding glass door! You will probably
loose that altercation due to lack of penetration. Sure, you
will blow glass everywhere but how effective will the lead be
when it reaches the target.
Over penetration is always a concern, But practiced home defence
tactics will help to lessen the threat. For instance, When you get to a doorway, don't go through standing straight up. Squat down low
and then you will be firing at an upward angle. This will also
decrease the size of you as a target to the perp.
When you are home alone, Unload your weapon and practice
sweeping and clearing your house.
Instruct your children on what to do if they hear something at night.
they should lie flay on the floor and get under their bed if possible.
Something else I always instruct people to do is to ALWAYS buy their
children white or yellow PJ's You do not want them moving around in the dark wearing dark clothes for obvious reasons.
I know every inch of my house and have several different types of weapons stashed here and there. They are not all firearms
(I have no kids to get them).
But the first thing I alway will grab is my .45 and My "Cold Steel"
PEACEKEEPER Knife! (I have retired my Ka-Bar for now).

The choice of weapons isn't easy if you try to think of all the
possibilities.

S.S. · « **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2004, 09:01:39 AM »

Deputy was correct in his clothing tests.
Some materials have an uncanny ability to
withstand penetration! They stretch and absorb
energy. It would still transfer most of the projectiles
energy to the target but the shot would be considerably
less lethal if heavy clothing in encountered. we found
that Some small caliber handgun bullets (.25,.32)
sometimes have trouble penetrating a heavy denim jacket.
if something relativley soft (a fat mans belly like mine for instance)
is behind it.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 27, 2004, 06:37:26 AM »

I had an acquaintence who happened to be our local coroner, when I first took the scheriffs qualifying course. I asked him the best thing for home defense. He didn't even hesitate, a shotgun loaded with bird loads. Seems he'd seen several men shot, accidentally and otherwise with these and had gotten curious. The shot at close range acts like a fluid mass and in the body begins a rapid deceleration creating a rapidly expanding shotpattern. The result is destruction on a produgious level.. He opined the person would need to be nearly standing at the door to the hospital to have had any chance of survival. I tested a bit back then and found that a shotgun blast will indeed penetrate a double plaster board wall but after that penetration has lost its cohession and will not be nearly as leathal.. On the otherhad, I had not trouble shooting holes in any type clothing, even multiple layers. The best protection seemed to be afforded by heavy canvas followed by quilted nylon clothing. The extrance hole in the back stop was amazing.. I'm sure the penetration was limited but the wound wound most certainly have halted any fight...trying to retain your innards would take up all your attention. My only direct interaction with a shotgun wound was with a high school acqaintence that did a bone head and shot himself in the knee with a single shot 410. He showed up in town with friends in the back seat of a car. The floorboard was covered in blood and the local dactor managed to save his life but the sight of his leg nearly amputated by a single shot from a 1/2 oz 410 shell never has left.. He lost the leg, there were only a few stripps of tendon and skin holding the leg together. He was wearing long underwear, blue jeans and brown canvas coveralls..insulated. I have many weapons about the house, handguns, rifles and shotguns, but if the excretia impacts the rotary impellor you can bet I'll grab the pump gun first. It's loaded with number 8's and 6's. One ounce loads.. When doing guard duty for my gunshow I use 00 buck. There the distances get longer...but in my house, light shot only..

jimmyp50 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 31, 2004, 11:57:18 AM »

I also had an aquaintence in Florida that had his leg amputated at the knee with a dove load in a hunting accident. My tests show me that low brass birdshot penetrates 3/4 inch white pine, I am sure that if you are a lawman, military, etc. and hunting trouble with a shotgun you would be silly not to use slugs or buckshot. On the other hand although any one of us can dream up some Rambo "what if" scenario that would indicate a homeowner buckshot prescription, I refuse to load it in my house. I will carry some #4 and 00 in the gun sleeve, but I feel the odds are way on my side with birdshot in a shotgun, against most types of possible home invaders. You have to look at the odds, yes it is possible that I may be "outgunned" by a home invader with a Mini 14 or Ar15, or shotgun loaded with buckshot. I am however pretty confident that the odds of facing a rifle, Class III, or shotgun in a home invasion is pretty low. While the odds of shooting through your walls with the resulting death of family or neighbors is pretty high with buckshot or let alone slugs. I hung up my Rambo hat a few years ago.....Jimmyp

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #16 on:** June 02, 2004, 08:46:42 AM »

At least TWO gun-writer/know-it-all types (Mass Ayoob being one) state unequivically that #1 shot is the way to go when using a shotgun for self-defense. What do I know, hell I've got a Berretta shotgun and don't even know how to operate it!

S.S. · « **Reply #17 on:** June 04, 2004, 09:43:17 AM »

There is no doubt that any shotgun will
make hamburger out of most things at point blank
range.Believe me I know! And all RAMBO stuff aside, I have been in
a situation much as I described in my earlier post.
The outcome was not pleasant for either of us!
I don't Get on these forums to BS anybody or sound like RAMBO
I attempt to enlighten people who seem like they are
really wanting the right answer or at least some information
that will help them to make up their own minds.
I base all of my posts on things I have seen first hand,
not things I have read or heard.
I have only ever been impressed with three gun writers
One was Bill Jordan one was Jeff Cooper
and the other was Elmer Keith.
I would take what they say as law! The others I would just heap
together as Toilet reading. I have worked with every branch
of the Military except the Coast Guard and was in law enforcement
For more years than I care to remember. I have seen and done
things and been places that the MAS AYOOBS and Evan Marshalls
of the world only have Night-Mares about.

So If I sound like RAMBO, Sorry about that.
Believe me when I say, I really wish I didn't know about
some of the things I comment about!

Lawdog · « **Reply #18 on:** June 04, 2004, 10:14:28 AM »

S.Sumner,

Quote

I have only ever been impressed with three gun writers
One was Bill Jordan one was Jeff Cooper
and the other was Elmer Keith.

We agree completely about writers. I have never trusted what Mas Ayoob or Evan Marshall has had to say. To much comes across as book learning and not practical, everyday experience. Weird things happen in real life happenings, some no one would ever believe if they hadnt seen it happen. Small groups and tight lines to you. Lawdog

Guardian · « **Reply #19 on:** June 05, 2004, 10:44:58 AM »

S.S.

I detect a little hostility in your last post! Just understand that in the overall picture, most of the people in these forums only have what they read or see on T.V. to go on. I understand your tone! I too have been in the places you describe as "Night-Mares"....And only someone who has been there can truely understand.

"All For God And Country My Friend"

litman252 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 09, 2004, 02:03:16 PM »

If you don't mind Gregory, I'm going to muddy the water a wee bit.
We have 2 schools of thought in this thread. One for penetration and one for lack of penetration due to capabilities of the shotgun. I personally agree with the thought to error on the lack of penetration side while still having a fair amount of penetration. ( I sound like Kerry )
Here is the mudd- Every time I see a post on Magsafe or some other frangible bullet for handguns people think the idea is nuts??? I don't understand it. Is it only OK to use birdshot in a shotgun due to 1oz while a .45 is shooting around 165 gr. of magsafe??
Tony

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #21 on:** June 09, 2004, 09:11:59 PM »

Hey Summer, you sound a little to ragged around the edges for me, I gotta put you on my IGNORE list.

S.S. · « **Reply #22 on:** June 14, 2004, 08:46:19 AM »

Do as you please, I have fought to give you that right.
I will shed no tears over it one way or another.

Guardian · « **Reply #23 on:** June 14, 2004, 09:34:49 AM »

Ragged around the edges?
I must have missed something! In any case I think that was not called for.
Flames are something that should not be tolerated in these forums, and the moderator should eject your user for that post Dusty. This is a great
forum with a lot of good folks on it. By the number of posts Sumner has
he must have been around here for a Long While! I have not been posting that long, But I know that these forums do not need anyone trying to make trouble. Opinions are fine but you got a little too personal I think.

S.S. · « **Reply #24 on:** June 14, 2004, 11:09:33 AM »

Guardian,
I appreciate your intentions, But his post
Ruffled no feathers on my part. Man if he really
knew me I don't think he would have said RAGGED,
He probably would have used frazzled or Jagged
or something like that. One of our briefing tents
used to have a sign above the door that said.
"For those who fight for it, Life has a flavor the
Sheltered will never know". Some people are
truely SHELTERED in their lives, and simply don't
understand the real world. Those people do not
offend me. I just hope that when reality does
come knocking that it will not injure them too severely.

S.Sumner

DangYankee · « **Reply #25 on:** June 18, 2004, 09:30:38 AM »

That was the most eloquent "punch in the Mouth" I have ever read!
I kind of like this forum!!!

DEPUTY · « **Reply #26 on:** June 18, 2004, 08:06:58 PM »

Keep it civil, we are adults here and i dont want to drop the hammer on anybody. got it

S.S. · « **Reply #27 on:** June 23, 2004, 09:07:53 AM »

Deputy:
I'm not even quite sure what the fella' took offense to
in the first place?
But If I offended him by something I typed,
I thing he did the right thing.
I don't mind being ignored, My wife and my pets do it all the time!

Big Paulie · « **Reply #28 on:** July 01, 2004, 10:14:34 AM »

Whew, a little heated in here. At any rate, a few quick thoughts:

1. A person should perhaps not say too quickly that he will take over-penetration any day, if he has children sleeping in the house. They will be the ones that will be killed or maimed. Two thicknesses of drywall makes for poor protection for your kids if you are shooting buckshot or slugs indoors. Imagine having kids asleep in two or three bedrooms upstairs, and letting loose with one or more 12 gauge loads of buckshot or slugs.

2. Last year in Memphis, an intruder was shot at 20 feet (down a hallway) with a single shot .410 loaded with bird shot. He was killed instantly. Although footpounds isn't everything, I believe that a 3 inch .410 packs about the same wallop as a 44 magnum.

3. I am sorry. But based on 35 years of shooting experience, I believe that a 12 gauge or a 20 gauge magnum, loaded with number 6 birdshot, would blow an enormous death-giving hole in anyone up to a distance of about 25 feet, and I don't care what type of clothes they are wearing. Maybe not with number 7 1/2 , 8, or 9, but definitely with no. 6. If you are really really worried about it, then go buy some no. 5s. Buckshot and slugs are simply not necessary for home protection. Remember, any time you start shooting a shotgun in a dark house, anything that can go wrong will go wrong.

Just my opinions. But, for those of you that are 50 years old or so, I am sure that you have seen many articles in gun magazines discussing this very same issue and reaching the same conclusion. Number 6 birdshot will do it.

Big Paulie

Mitch in MI · « **Reply #29 on:** July 06, 2004, 12:59:14 AM »

Would steel flechettes be a good compromise between duck loads and buckshot?