The educational system is a racket !

[ironglow]

  There was a time when a person could work summers and part time during the semester, and have his/her college paid off by graduation. ..But since big government got involved, costs have risen exponentially.

   Notice; In 1980, it would take 40.8 weeks work @ $3.10 to pay tuition.

  In 2016, it would take 169 weeks work @ $7.25, to pay for same.

    Still, some unearned, get their tuition paid for them...while others must go in debt even more, to cover the "free rides".

[guzzijohn]

Don't forget that $3.10 wage in 1980 would make minimum wage of around $12 today but that is not happening at the federal level.
GuzziJohn

[ironglow]

Don't forget that $3.10 wage in 1980 would make minimum wage of around $12 today but that is not happening at the federal level.
GuzziJohn

   Yes, you have a point there.. which means the $3.10 wage would have increased by 4, in the same time period.  However it still doesn't explain
    why the cost of school during the same period, increased by 10 times.

  When the government got in the business of loaning money to gullible youth, then guaranteeing repayment, that seemed to
    open the door for unbridled greed.

  In the final analysis, so as to account for inflation..the only way to break down such figures, is to assess how many hours one has to work to pay for any given product or service..

[Lloyd Smale]

just look at the difference in what a college professor makes compared to a high school teacher. then look at the HUGE difference in pay between administrators at both

[ironglow]

just look at the difference in what a college professor makes compared to a high school teacher. then look at the HUGE difference in pay between administrators at both

   ...And when I went to school, each centralized school had a principal in charge, while there was one administrator, at  county level.

   It seems in recent decades, that multiple "administratoirs' are showing up in centralized schools.  Parkinson's law, I presume.

[guzzijohn]

..And when I went to school, each centralized school had a principal in charge, while there was one administrator, at  county level.

   It seems in recent decades, that multiple "administratoirs' are showing up in centralized schools.  Parkinson's law, I presume.

Keep in mind that compared to years ago there is a huge amount of increased "accountability reporting" and testing requirements at the state and federal levels. A huge amount of administrative time goes into that. Also compared to decades ago sports are a much larger part of the school experience. At most of the schools of any size I worked at one vice principal spent about half their time on sports related stuff. Decades ago there were not consolidated districts that now need a full time administrators just to keep up with all the buildings. The list goes on and on.
GuzziJohn

[ironglow]

..And when I went to school, each centralized school had a principal in charge, while there was one administrator, at  county level.

   It seems in recent decades, that multiple "administratoirs' are showing up in centralized schools.  Parkinson's law, I presume.

Keep in mind that compared to years ago there is a huge amount of increased "accountability reporting" and testing requirements at the state and federal levels. A huge amount of administrative time goes into that. Also compared to decades ago sports are a much larger part of the school experience. At most of the schools of any size I worked at one vice principal spent about half their time on sports related stuff. Decades ago there were not consolidated districts that now need a full time administrators just to keep up with all the buildings. The list goes on and on.
GuzziJohn

   Sorry, but most of us consider how well educated the children are, as opposed to how much we are paying for the school costs.

   Most schools in the 1890s were a one room affair (the way I started in the 1940s).  Here is a final test administered by a school in Kansas for 8th graders.   You are from Kansas, aren't you? Could today's 8th graders pass this test...despite all the visual aids and a bevy of administrators they are
 blessed with?

  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2015/10/16/heres-the-famous-1895-eighth-grade-test-from-kansas-see-how-you-would-do/

[guzzijohn]

Most schools in the 1890s were a one room affair (the way I started in the 1940s).  Here is a final test administered by a school in Kansas for 8th graders.   You are from Kansas, aren't you? Could today's 8th graders pass this test...despite all the visual aids and a bevy of administrators they are
 blessed with?

How many here at our ages could pass that test without a lot of study? How much time back then was spent on standardized testing prep instead of useful teaching (Which exploded with Bush's "No Child left Behind.")? How come these test have no questions containing to the arts or music? Not considered important for a well rounded education back then? Different times and needs I guess.
GuzziJohn

[Lloyd Smale]

heres a good example that made me shake my head. biggest town around here high school sport teams were called the redman. woke bs made them change that name and there was an article in the local news that the school bought all new uniforms for everyone male and female that was in sports. the liberal news channel applauded it. fridays news had an article that said that school was having budget problems in there special education dept and might have to lower the iq levels of who qualifies.. what kind of insanity is that. by the way its in the only democratic county in the UP of mich. college there has billboard advertisements that brag that its the most liberal college in michigan

when a vice principal biggest job in taking care of sports programs somethings wrong. not one in 10,000 kids in sports ever make a living off of it and how many people do you know that make a living playing the tuba or a drum? how many people make there living painting pictures? these are all wastes of our tax dollars that should be going to educating our kids to face the real job market. if you want your kid to play football pay the entire cost of participating. you want your kid to draw pictures for a living or play the flute pay for a private school that emphasizes those programs and quit wasting my money on it. war comes with china. do we really need people who can paint pictures of it or play in the air force band? do we need a pile of yuppies with liberal arts degrees? Or kids that are good enough for college sports getting a free ride playing basketball barely squeaking by getting D's and coming out with teaching degrees and counting on them to educate our kids! probably not one in 10,000 of them ever makes a dime of pro money. guzzi said something that is FACT. these are different times and its about time our education systems start actually educating. scholarships should be given for things like computer science or trade jobs. not playing a game. if you want free school join the military and serve your country and use the GI bill

[darkgael]

when a vice principal biggest job in taking care of sports programs somethings wrong. not one in 10,000 kids in sports ever make a living off of it and how many people do you know that make a living playing the tuba or a drum? how many people make there living painting pictures? these are all wastes of our tax dollars that should be going to educating our kids to face the real job market. if you want your kid to play football pay the entire cost of participating. you want your kid to draw pictures for a living or play the flute pay for a private school that emphasizes those programs and quit wasting my money on it. war comes with china. do we really need people who can paint pictures of it or play in the air force band? do we need a pile of yuppies with liberal arts degrees? Or kids that are good enough for college sports getting a free ride playing basketball barely squeaking by getting D's and coming out with teaching degrees and counting on them to educate our kids! probably not one in 10,000 of them ever makes a dime of pro money. guzzi said something that is FACT. these are different times and its about time   trade jobs. not playing a game. if you want free school join the military and serve your country and use the GI bill

You are not alone in that point of view. The focus seems to be that the purpose of a high school and college education is to prepare a person for the job market. Programs like art and music and sports are not translatable, for most people, into making a living and are, therefore are a waste of time and money.
The thing is that that is a common, basic misunderstanding of what is supposed to happen in education.
Does anyone learn how to do a job in high school or college? Did that lineman up on a pole or a tower learn how to do that job properly in HS? The fellow running that grader on at the construction site for the new interstate...did he learn that in HS? The guy operating the boom from his little cab 80 floors up...where did  he get those skills?
The Cop in the car or on the beat.....did he learn everything that he needs to be effective and safe in school?
Most people learn how to do whatever job they have by doing the job every day often for years. They did not learn it in school.
So what did the learn in school....or what were they supposed to learn? Basically.....how to think clearly. how to speak clearly, how to write clearly. How to recognize when an argument is bogus. and how to respond with one that is not. They learn maybe that they are good with numbers and that what other students find difficult or boring is easy for them They need to learn what the choices are in the world of thought. They need to learn that, in addition, to the life of dollars and cents, of careers and ambition, there is life of the mind that needs to be fed.
Not every kid playing football or basket ball or field hockey or lacrosse or running cross country dreams of making even a penny.....they do what they do because they like and maybe they are good at it. Should that feeling of accomplishment that comes with making the team, winning a game or a race be encouraged or curtailed?
There is a whole other lengthy rant about what a youngster learns from sports. I will leave that for another person or another time.

Note: getting Ds and while playing in college.....that is misleading. The minimum grade average required for play in a D1 or D2 school is 2.3/4.0.  better than a C average.

[Lloyd Smale]

i have no problem with your kid learning from sports. but should i have to pay for it. ill gladly pay for all the math or computer clases your kid wants to take but if you wants to play games or beat on a marching drum or paint pictures that cost should be on you. not saying they should be eliminated but they should be paid for by parents. or at minimum have a separate millage vote on the ballot on voting day. There are many people barely getting by and could use the tax money supporting these things to actually eat! also how fair is it to the kid that wants to play soccer or golf or lacrosse or race motocross that there sport isnt supported. in school my two sports were boxing and baseball. we didnt have high school teams for either and my parents had to pay my way. why is it ok to spend thousands of dollars on basketball but nothing on baseball that our town fielded 3 babe ruth teams and two legion league teams that accounted for 4 times as many kids as basketball or football did. schools didnt provide even a uniform or a bat or glove for us. when we had a kid thats family couldnt afford it they brought it up in there monthly meeting and the parents were asked for voluntary donations i know im poking a dead dog because if it went that way all the black kids parents would be screaming racism because they sure arent giving up there smokes, beer or drugs to pay for basketball or much of anything for there kids. nancy and joe would be on tv tomorrow blaming it maga cultists

[darkgael]

i have no problem with your kid learning from sports. but should i have to pay for it. ill gladly pay for all the math or computer clases your kid wants to take but if you wants to play games or beat on a marching drum or paint pictures that cost should be on you.

What I disagree with there is the idea that certain courses/activities are more valuable than others in the process of making an educated person.

[Lloyd Smale]

tell me what your kids or grandkids would benifit more from. 200k spent on football or a new computer lab.

i have no problem with your kid learning from sports. but should i have to pay for it. ill gladly pay for all the math or computer clases your kid wants to take but if you wants to play games or beat on a marching drum or paint pictures that cost should be on you.

What I disagree with there is the idea that certain courses/activities are more valuable than others in the process of making an educated person.

[ironglow]

Most schools in the 1890s were a one room affair (the way I started in the 1940s).  Here is a final test administered by a school in Kansas for 8th graders.   You are from Kansas, aren't you? Could today's 8th graders pass this test...despite all the visual aids and a bevy of administrators they are
 blessed with?

How many here at our ages could pass that test without a lot of study? How much time back then was spent on standardized testing prep instead of useful teaching (Which exploded with Bush's "No Child left Behind.")? How come these test have no questions containing to the arts or music? Not considered important for a well rounded education back then? Different times and needs I guess.
GuzziJohn

  We have a different society now.  Priorities back then were to make sure the student was familiarized with our constitution, the beauty and uniqueness of the American way, and things that were necessary for everyday living.
  Music and arts were likely tested during classes that taught those skills, plus there was community back then.  Much music was learned through church attendance, and arts through everyday living and practices.

  Besides, how would one test music or art during finals?  Would they play a cello or carve a sculpture ?

  I am reasonably sure we disagree, but I consider music, arts and sports as "frills" added to the educational system..things that can all be experienced outside the classroom.  Certainly our history from the 1600s through the 1800s, produced great music and arts, despite the one room school "handicaps"..

   THe one room school such as I experienced, along with the centralized schoool system I also attended,. gave me enough understanding to know throiugh experience, that the single room teaching was superior to the centralized school, at least for the first 6 to 8 grades.

  BTW: Sports?  I didn't need sports, I kept in decent physical condition..harvesting crops, cleaning barns, working the woods and doing the many labor intensive jobs on the farm.  Nothing stopping today's youth from learning to enjoy hard work either.

[ironglow]

tell me what your kids or grandkids would benifit more from. 200k spent on football or a new computer lab.

i have no problem with your kid learning from sports. but should i have to pay for it. ill gladly pay for all the math or computer clases your kid wants to take but if you wants to play games or beat on a marching drum or paint pictures that cost should be on you.

What I disagree with there is the idea that certain courses/activities are more valuable than others in the process of making an educated person.

  What is pointedly missing, is basic citizenship classes.  Were students totally familiarized with the founding of ournation and the Constitution  which
 frames it, we may not have sommany lame-brains running riot in our streets, trying to bring the pain of Marxism into our country.
     
  Were they cognizant of our history, they would not be demanding the slavery of socialism or communism be installed here in America.

  Our government and Constitution should be diligently taught..since an uninformed populace could easily fritter our freedoms away !

   Since I have no experienced recent years of K-12, I am told the teaching of history, especially before mid twentieth century, is lacking.  Since we have some recent teachers here, please tell us how thoroughly history is being taught these days.

    “Those Who Do Not Learn History Are Doomed To Repeat It.”   (George Santayana)

[darkgael]

tell me what your kids or grandkids would benifit more from. 200k spent on football or a new computer lab.

i have no problem with your kid learning from sports. but should i have to pay for it. ill gladly pay for all the math or computer clases your kid wants to take but if you wants to play games or beat on a marching drum or paint pictures that cost should be on you.

What I disagree with there is the idea that certain courses/activities are more valuable than others in the process of making an educated person.

Obviously the computer lab would benefit more students. I hope that you did not expect me toe respond any differently. The thing is that those are not all or nothing choices. The one choice is sports, not just football. When I was teaching, the district built a new high school. They had a choice to make at one point....build a planetarium or a swimming pool. Which would you have done?

[Dixie-Dude]

Minimum wage today is $7.25.  Burger King starts a part time person off at $11.  Most places start people between $10 and $15 an hour in Alabama.  You can still work your way through college by going to a Community College first to get your 2 years of basics.  This is much cheaper.  Then transfer to a 4 year college.  Getting a job at a good restaurant can bring in a lot of tip money, even while being paid minimum wage.  Take out the expensive Ivy League schools, and other colleges and universities are much cheaper.  No need to go into debt for college. 

Also, America is in dire need of skilled blue collar workers.  Welders, electricians, plumbers, HVAC people, linemen, pipe fitters, etc.  One can make more money actually working with a 2 year trade degree than they can with a French Literature degree.  Most of the liberal arts degreed young people can't find jobs.  College degrees needed are engineers, doctors, nurses, chemists, etc, not literature, art, music, etc, unless you are really really good.  Too many useless degrees and no jobs for them. 

Germany has only about 10% of their population getting college degrees, but probably 60% getting trade degrees. 

[Dee]

Texas high school football is almost a religion down here. Has been for decades. They won't secure their campuses, they won't put up security fences, they won't hire armed security, they won't put in security doors, and bullet proof windows.

BUT! They will literally take the ballot boxes to home football games to get school bonds passed which will usually further enhance their sports programs.

THEN! When they have a school shooting or sumthin similar, they, like everybody else, blame the police.

[Lloyd Smale]

i agree a class in the constitution should be mandatory in school. but id fear how those teachers would warp the class to push an agenda. but id bet if you asked a college student what the amendments are 50 percent could tell you what any of them are and maybe fifty percent would know about the first two. but id bet youd get more blank stares then anything and theyd have to google it on there phone

[Lloyd Smale]

AMEN!!

Texas high school football is almost a religion down here. Has been for decades. They won't secure their campuses, they won't put up security fences, they won't hire armed security, they won't put in security doors, and bullet proof windows.

BUT! They will literally take the ballot boxes to home football games to get school bonds passed which will usually further enhance their sports programs.

THEN! When they have a school shooting or sumthin similar, they, like everybody else, blame the police.

[ironglow]

Texas high school football is almost a religion down here. Has been for decades. They won't secure their campuses, they won't put up security fences, they won't hire armed security, they won't put in security doors, and bullet proof windows.

BUT! They will literally take the ballot boxes to home football games to get school bonds passed which will usually further enhance their sports programs.

THEN! When they have a school shooting or sumthin similar, they, like everybody else, blame the police.

   Yes, I understand how football is so dear to many Texans, and I am not implying that anybody forego sports entirely.  ..But is it necessary to major
   in sports?  Today some high  schools are building multi milloin dollar stadiums, when it seems the community might do better, were citizens
   allowed to keep that tax money at home and in the business.  It seems like a plain old marked field with simple bleachers, worked fine back in the 1950s..

[Lloyd Smale]

when the airbase supported our school (again the tax payers) they built us a beautiful pool. when the base closed they cut the swim team and filled the pool with concrete because they didnt want to spend money maintaining it.  so much for the kids that wanted to compete in swimming but they sure didnt cut the football or basketball teams and like dee eluded to theve done nothinf to bolster security other the auto locking doors

tell me what your kids or grandkids would benifit more from. 200k spent on football or a new computer lab.

i have no problem with your kid learning from sports. but should i have to pay for it. ill gladly pay for all the math or computer clases your kid wants to take but if you wants to play games or beat on a marching drum or paint pictures that cost should be on you.

What I disagree with there is the idea that certain courses/activities are more valuable than others in the process of making an educated person.

Obviously the computer lab would benefit more students. I hope that you did not expect me toe respond any differently. The thing is that those are not all or nothing choices. The one choice is sports, not just football. When I was teaching, the district built a new high school. They had a choice to make at one point....build a planetarium or a swimming pool. Which would you have done?

[Lloyd Smale]

use to be when i was in school the coaches were the gym teachers now they have full time paid coaches only cosession is the paid football coach has to be the assistant basketball coach and vice versa. id bet with wages and benifits  thats 200k a year just in coaches and thats a small school

Texas high school football is almost a religion down here. Has been for decades. They won't secure their campuses, they won't put up security fences, they won't hire armed security, they won't put in security doors, and bullet proof windows.

BUT! They will literally take the ballot boxes to home football games to get school bonds passed which will usually further enhance their sports programs.

THEN! When they have a school shooting or sumthin similar, they, like everybody else, blame the police.

   Yes, I understand how football is so dear to many Texans, and I am not implying that anybody forego sports entirely.  ..But is it necessary to major
   in sports?  Today some high  schools are building multi milloin dollar stadiums, when it seems the community might do better, were citizens
   allowed to keep that tax money at home and in the business.  It seems like a plain old marked field worked fine, back in the 1950s..

[Ranger99]

13 years ago Allen ( where the pinhead
shot up the mall and took the room
temperature test) spent 60 million dollars
on a school stadium with something like
18-19 thousand seats

I'd hate to try to be in charge of security
of all those unknowns.  I think it was
built with prestige in mind more so
than security

[Lloyd Smale]

wonder if they ever considered that high school sports might be part of the school shooting problems. who does them? the outcasted kid that the jocks laughed at and picked on that had few friends or was overweight or looked different. ill sit right here and admit i was one of those a holes that tormented them. i had one incident when one of the nerds made a crack about my learning disabled little brother and i beat him bad enough he had to go to the hospital. because my ma taught there and my boxing coach who was a teacher told the school board that boys will be boys a didnt even get my hand slapped. only thing i got was one of the only pats on my back i ever got from dad. those kuids are the ones that come back with guns

[Ranger99]

I would respectfully disagree
I was raised in the sticks and stones . .
but names will never hurt me
generation

These days there's people that
off themselves because of a
derogatory or negative
computer post online, or not
getting enough "likes " on their
website
People my age and back could
cope with adversity. People can't
anymore
Too much enabling and making
excuses plays a part too

[Lloyd Smale]

i could just imagine what my dad would have said if i came home crying because someone was poicking on me. at best there would have been a size 11 up my you know what

[gypsyman]

Wrong on many different levels. K-12 you've got teachers that don't care, and parents either. One has to work with the other, or just a waste of time and money. I believe this spring, a high school in Texas cancelled the graduation ceremony, less than 10 students could pass the final exam out of 90 or so. Jimmy Carter started the DOE, one of the biggest waste of federal tax dollar there is. 1958 federal govt. started college loans for students. Since then, all down hill. Nothing but a money pit, and now we have over 43 million people owing student loans, over 1.3 trillion. Yep, quite a racket, but I'm afraid, it'll bite us in the backside eventually!!

[Dee]

Wrong on many different levels. K-12 you've got teachers that don't care, and parents either. One has to work with the other, or just a waste of time and money. I believe this spring, a high school in Texas cancelled the graduation ceremony, less than 10 students could pass the final exam out of 90 or so. Jimmy Carter started the DOE, one of the biggest waste of federal tax dollar there is. 1958 federal govt. started college loans for students. Since then, all down hill. Nothing but a money pit, and now we have over 43 million people owing student loans, over 1.3 trillion. Yep, quite a racket, but I'm afraid, it'll bite us in the backside eventually!!

Wrong, it was 5, out of 33.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/26/us/marlin-high-school-texas-graduation/index.html

[Dee]

Here's a picture of Marlin High School football stadium. Pretty nice.

https://texasbob.com/stadium/stadium.php?id=109