Author Topic: 10/22 owners would you try a new shooting sport?  (Read 884 times)

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Offline K2

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10/22 owners would you try a new shooting sport?
« on: March 24, 2004, 07:25:32 AM »
I like to shoot silhouette and think there is a need for a budget priced plinker area where we would use 3/8ths scale targets (about double the size of the normal small bore rifle targets) and limit the rifles to over the counter sporter .22's such as teh very popular 10/22 (not the heavy barrel model) the Marlin model 60 Remington 597 and this type of gun topped with stock sights for the open sight class and lower power scopes of either 4x or maybe up to 9X so the very popular 3x9 variables could be used.

The "serious" silhouette shooters say I am barking up the wrong tree and you fellows won't show up cause silhouette is too hard.  I counter that with you would show up if you don't have to shoot against highly speciallized target rifles costing up to $3000.  

Would you come and play or not?  Need to know whether to proceed or not, Thanks  :D

Offline Shorty

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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2004, 02:01:59 PM »
Basically, you're wanting to go back to the begining of silhouette - the way it started out!  Like most competitive games, it became an "arms race".  If you were to succede in this, pretty soon you'd have to start making rules and specifications all over again. :roll:

Offline K2

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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2004, 06:06:41 AM »
Hi Shorty

You are absolutely correct!!!  I have some experience in this area, creating a low budget area in handgun silhouette 4 years ago for the IHMSA.  The racers have now got ahold of it and will slowly kill it off growth wise.  The solution is not that difficult to put in practice.  It starts with the bylaws of the association and keeping a budget area of competition must be part of the goals of the association.   Rules done right do not require many rule changes over long periods of time.  Bylaws  written correctly will only allow changes that the majority of the members actually want (as opposed to a few that want to push the game their way) and are glaring in the need for change, these may come up but will be the exception not the "rule".  What I have found is there are quite a few shooters that would compete in a recreational sport where the shooters are on equal footing equipment wise and want that equipment to be what they already own for the most part.  If you already own a 10/22 then all that you need to spend is the amount to join the new association.  If you want to shoot silhouette in the existing games you need to make a choice of staying in the bottom classes or spending pretty big Dollars for scopes and rifles that on average make joining about a $1000 plus commitment from the start.  For some this is not a problem but for others it is enough that they don't join.  I for one do not believe the "class" system works for those who can't or won't spend what it takes to get to the top.  They are more interested in focusing on the shooter and not so much on the equipment.  

I proved conclusively that a low budget game can have very tough competition at the same time we are not spending our kids college fund or our retirement funds trying to keep up with the new toy on the block or supporting the local gun smith, only to be obsoleted a year or so later.  

The major manufacturers have steered pretty much away from silhouette because of having to run head to head with customized equipment.  They can't really endorse modifications to their equipment because of the liability that could result so they just keep on building what americans want for the most part.  Ruger is a great example and so is TC.  Both supported the handgun game with equipment offerings but of late have backed way off.  Ruger revolvers can't go head to head with a $1800 Freedom Arms and TC can't do it against the custom falling block pistols.  

Since Ruger and TC, Remington and Marlin etc. sell more equipment in one day than the custom houses sell in a year this is where we should base a sport if we want to see lots of participation.  It is easy to create a niche sport where 4 to 10 people show up to a local "match" on average.

It is also not that difficult to create a sport that caters to the vast majority of gun owners.  You do have to put that in the goals of the association from the get go and that is what I am proposing.

Long story I know but the real question is this:
Would you be interested in a sport that the rules stay very stable and your equipment is not obsoleted by constant rule changes?

For the Autoloaders you would have to shoot the gun with the barrel and action that the guns manufacturer makes.  Cosmetic changes such as gold leaf in the lettering or having your initials inletted into the stock would not disqualify the gun but action trueing and aftermarket triggers etc. would.  If you are short you could shorten the factory stock for length of pull or if you are tall you could add material to the butt of the factory stock, but you could not use an aftermarket stock etc.  

I have already found a few fellows who are interested in helping get this off the ground but we are seeing if people who own over the counter equipment will actually support it.  

This is not to take away from the current silhouette games out there they do a good job serving the group they have and will continue to do so.   Realistically over the counter equipment shooters are not on their priority list and I believe these types might enjoy silhouette given the chance.  Silhouette does not need to turn into an arms race and only does so because the rules allow for it.  

 
Quote from: Shorty
Basically, you're wanting to go back to the begining of silhouette - the way it started out!  Like most competitive games, it became an "arms race".  If you were to succede in this, pretty soon you'd have to start making rules and specifications all over again. :roll:

Offline bullfrog

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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2004, 04:43:24 PM »
I am interested and have boht a 1022 and a marlin. When is this going to start.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2004, 04:30:41 AM »
akihmsa -

I shoot "silhouette" all the time with my Browning .22 Semi auto.  I have a Simmons "22 Mag" 4x mounted on it.

My favorite "silhouette" is a prairie dog.  Under 200 yards the dog is toast.  Past 250 yards they are relatively safe unless they are dumb enough to let me range in.  

A few weeks ago I was at the range with Daughter #2.  She was busting clay pigeons I had put on the 200 yard berm, no problem.

You are right -  I have maybe $225 in the Browning and scope.  With two girls in college this fall and retirement on the (very) distant horizon, buying a race gun is out of the question - if they are required to be competitive, I'll stick with dogs and pigeons.
Coyote Hunter
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Offline K2

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« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2004, 05:49:53 AM »
Thanks for the vote of confidence Coyote Hunter :D

I have a fair number of "serious" competitors tell me that a low budget game won't work.  I am betting they are flat wrong.  People like to shoot as evidenced by the amounts of ammo sold.  They like the budget guns as evidenced by the vast numbers of these guns made and sold.  What they will not do is go shoot a marlin or ruger against an Anshutz or a Kimber and pay money to do it.  

The new game will be running in the near future Bullfrog.  Nothing worth doing should be rushed just to start and then have to fix things that were overlooked in the rush.  There is a bunch of work that needs to be done like a web domain, a rulebook that works, and a match director handbook for those people that will be the backbone of the sport.  

I have a computer guy designing a database to keep records from the very beginning.  I was frustrated by the lack of records kept in my past Silhouette association when it came to knowing who shot the top scores in each State and region.  People like to know these things and it makes a great "On this day in History" column for the newsletter.  It keeps the association in touch with its roots etc.  

In the mean time you can practice on paper silhouette targets that can be downloaded from the internet and start trying out a fun game.  Make a template out of cardboard and simply spray paint flat black onto another piece of cardboard thru the template.  Soda pop case trays make a great source of cardboard you can get for free from any grocery store, just ask and they will gladly give you as many as you can take!  Only count as a Hit a full caliber hole on the animal and away you go :wink:

The .22 targets are 3/8ths of the full scale targets.  Distances are 25, 50, 75, 100 yards.  If you can only shoot at one distance say 50 yards then rescale the targets to the appropriate size.  For the ram that is normally at 100 yards you would make it 1/2 of the 3/8ths scale or 3/16ths of the full size targets.  

Coyote Hunter what ammo do you normally buy?  We are thinking of only allowing high velocity .22s as that eliminates the high buck Target ammo from whupping up on someone shooting promo ammo too badly.  

Again lower cost is going to mean more participation from a wider group of people who believe their childrens college education is more important than whether they shoot a 1 inch group or a 2 1/2" group  :D  Heck just the dog gone gas prices lately are pinching a lot of us in the recreational area.  

Take care and keep it fun.  
Quote from: Coyote Hunter
akihmsa -

I shoot "silhouette" all the time with my Browning .22 Semi auto.  I have a Simmons "22 Mag" 4x mounted on it.

My favorite "silhouette" ia a prairie dog.  Under 200 yards and the dog is toast.  Past 250 yards they are relatively safe unless they are dumb enough to let me range in.  

A few weeks ago I was at the range with Daughter #2.  She was busting clay pigeons I had put on the 200 yard berm, no problem.

You are right -  I have maybe $225 in the Browning and scope.  With two girls in college this fall and retirement on the (very) distant horizon, buying a race gun is out of the question - if they are required to be competitive, I'll stick with dogs and pigeons.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2004, 02:39:49 PM »
Quote from: akihmsa
...
Coyote Hunter what ammo do you normally buy?  We are thinking of only allowing high velocity .22s as that eliminates the high buck Target ammo from whupping up on someone shooting promo ammo too badly.  


Some time ago (several years) I shot Winchester, Fedreal and Remington side by side and was amazed at the different points of impact.  Since my rifle was zeroed for Remington, I just stuck with that -- the 36g/1280fps loads in the 550-count bulk packs.
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Offline Ron T.

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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2004, 04:23:28 PM »
About 5 years ago, I took my Ruger 10/22 (Ser. # 9xx) and every brand of .22 hi-velocity ammo I could buy (about 15 different brands or types) and shot all of them off the bench rest using my 10/22.

My rifle turned out to "like" 38 grain Federal Hi-Velocity Classic hollow-points (lot#CH350) the best...  Super-X Hi-Velocity hollow points were a close #2.

My Smith&Wesson K-22 (6-inch) liked the Federal ammo the best as well.  As a result of this test with both my rifle and revolver, I bought a whole case (5,000 rounds) of lot#CH350.

This was an "honest" test... 5-shot groups carefully fired from the bench rest with sandbags and a rifle rest at 25 yards.  Both the Federal & Super-X ammo made small, one-ragged-hole groups, but the Federal "groups" were slightly smaller.

My 10/22... one of the first thousand made... was/is totally "stock"... nothing has been done to it and no "after-market" parts added or original parts changed.  But with a 3x-9x by 30mm variable scope on it, the little rifle shot pretty well.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."  - Thomas Jefferson

Offline K2

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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2004, 08:04:42 AM »
Good information Ron  :D

My hunch is that keeping the cost low thru normal guns and high velocity ammo will not adversely affect scores more than a few points and the competion will be quite good at that level.  Would thousand dollar guns and $10 a box ammo do better?  Yes slightly, but few will pay this cost for the minor benefits gained which is why I believe the current silhouette games have a very small following nationally.  I would rather have 10,000 fellows shooting over the counter equipment having a good time than have 1000 shooters with highly speciallized equipment fretting over one or two targets they might pick up with yet more expensive equipment.  

A good competition can be built around any level of equipment one chooses.  A popular competition (one with lots of participation) needs to be affordable.  As with any economic situation the higher the cost the smaller the number who can afford to play.  That is why Ruger sells more 10/22's than does Anshutz top Olympic target rifles.  
Quote from: Ron T.
About 5 years ago, I took my Ruger 10/22 (Ser. # 9xx) and every brand of .22 hi-velocity ammo I could buy (about 15 different brands or types) and shot all of them off the bench rest using my 10/22.

My rifle turned out to "like" 38 grain Federal Hi-Velocity Classic hollow-points (lot#CH350) the best...  Super-X Hi-Velocity hollow points were a close #2.

My Smith&Wesson K-22 (6-inch) liked the Federal ammo the best as well.  As a result of this test with both my rifle and revolver, I bought a whole case (5,000 rounds) of lot#CH350.

This was an "honest" test... 5-shot groups carefully fired from the bench rest with sandbags and a rifle rest at 25 yards.  Both the Federal & Super-X ammo made small, one-ragged-hole groups, but the Federal "groups" were slightly smaller.

My 10/22... one of the first thousand made... was/is totally "stock"... nothing has been done to it and no "after-market" parts added or original parts changed.  But with a 3x-9x by 30mm variable scope on it, the little rifle shot pretty well.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.